Corruptor Secondary Should Get Scourge
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-11-23 13:40 in Suggestions and Ideas
And naming just a few Corruptor powers that would NOT get Scourge under your proposition:
ALL Radiation
ALL Thermal
ALL Pain Domination
All FF
ALL Kinetics
ALL Sonic
(Note - this is more than 50% of the Corr secondaries.)
All Cold except Sleet (Tier 8 secondary power)
All Dark, except Dark Servant (Tier 9 secondary)
That seems a bit unbalanced for those sets that wouldn't get Scourge, doesn't it? And those that wouldnt get it until level 35 or later?
Whereas Traps & Storm would get them early on and would get multiple additional chances to Scourge?
/unsigned.
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
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Actually Fallout in Radiation, Power of the Phoenix in Thermal, and at least Liquefy in Sonic would also benefit from scourge. I also mentioned Howling Twilight in Dark. |
Originally Posted by Ad Astra
And naming just a few Corrupter powers that would NOT get Scourge under your proposition:
ALL Radiation ALL Thermal ALL Pain Domination All FF ALL Kinetics ALL Sonic All Cold except Sleet (Tier 8 secondary power) All Dark, except Dark Servant (Tier 9 secondary) That seems a bit unbalanced for those sets that wouldn't get Scourge, doesn't it? And those that wouldnt get it until level 35 or later? Whereas Traps & Storm would get them early on and would get multiple additional chances to Scourge? /unsigned. |
You're right that some secondary powers would get scourge abilities in them sooner or get more of them, however you're trading damage for buff/debuff/heal abilities just the same as people do now. As I also mentioned, Gale already has this ability, but I don't see where people would take Storm Summoning over other power sets just because of this.
Also on a side note, Corruptors don't have FF as a secondary.
If you don't like something change it; if you can't change it, change the way you think about it.
~Mary Engelbreit
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Those are support powers. They're not meant to deal damage, but to debuff etc.
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Originally Posted by SpecialDelivery
This is a fairly straight forward suggestion that hopefully I don't complicate.
Stated simply: Any Corruptor Secondary Power set that deals damage should be allowed the scourge ability. Scourge, for those that are unsure, gives a power the chance (specifically 2.5% chance per every percentage point targets health is below 50%) to do double damage. Now granted there are not a lot of secondary power sets for Corruptors that actually deal damage, but the ones that do should have scourge. After all, that is a Corruptor's "special" ability. To be fair, there does seem to be one ability that does allow scourge. The power Gale from the Storm Summoning line does give the scourge ability. This makes the absence of scourge from all other Corruptor secondary powers all the more strange. Naming just a few of the Corruptor secondary powers that do not get scourge are: Storm Summoning - Freezing Rain, Tornado, and Lightning Storm. Dark Miasma - Howling Twilight and Dark Servant Cold Domination - Sleet Trick Arrow - Acid Arrow Traps - Caltrops, Acid Mortar, Seeker Drones, Trip Mine, and Time Bomb I thought that perhaps since some of the abilities mentioned are considered "pets", such as Tornado, Lightning Storm, Dark Servant, Seeker Drones, etc., that perhaps there was something against pets. However the Voltaic Sentinel's Electrical Bolt is allowed to scourge. Although Voltaic Sentinel is from Corruptor's primary power set Electrical Blast, this still at least shows it's not a problem with pets in particular. A quote from the Corruptor description includes this statement, "As your foes are weakened, your (scourge) ability kicks in, increasing your damage to an enemy as their hit points drop." It specifically states an increase in your damage, making no distinction whether the damage comes from a primary or secondary power set. So to summarize, please give the Corruptor's Secondary Power Sets that do damage the ability to scourge. |
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The simple fact is that the powers I mentioned already do damage. I was simply asking to have the scourge effect added to them.
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Originally Posted by ReclusesPhantom
Those are support powers. They're not meant to deal damage, but to debuff etc.
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If you don't like something change it; if you can't change it, change the way you think about it.
~Mary Engelbreit
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However, some of them *do* do damage. (Even if it's minor - I had to double check on Howling Twilgiht. I remember the stun, just not the damage.)|
Originally Posted by ReclusesPhantom
Those are support powers. They're not meant to deal damage, but to debuff etc.
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Now, there is some precedent for the inherent affecting the secondary -
- Tank attacks, after all, fire off Gauntlet, and I *believe* Brute armors with damage components help with Fury build up (might be wrong on that, normally too busy to pay attention.)
- I'm not sure if Dom secondaries with immobs (say, Psy) currently are affected by Domination, but they certainly were with attacks in the old Dom (damage buff.) (Edit: Fired up my Ice/Psy. Built up domination using my primary. Fired off Subdue (secondary) and did get Domination on the immob, so yes, they are affected.)
- Controllers should get containment from any held target - including from Rad's choking cloud.
... just off the top of my head. (That's not going into APP/PPPs, even - Stalker snipes, for instance, will crit from hide, but in APP weirdness, Dark Mastery on Defenders keep the Scrapper crit.)
Corruptor secondaries that get scourge if damage is dealt wouldn't be that novel of an idea. And arent' both damage and buff/debuff values generally seen as "low" with corruptors anyway?
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But FF would have Force Bolt. |
Originally Posted by SpecialDelivery
Also on a side note, Corruptors don't have FF as a secondary.
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My MM has a chance for damage proc in Force Bolt, just for lulz.
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Oops.| Also on a side note, Corruptors don't have FF as a secondary. |
I still don't like the suggestion.
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
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I'm fine with the suggestion. Scrappers, Brutes, and Stalkers all get the benefit of their inherents on their secondary, don't they?
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Originally Posted by Ad Astra
Oops.
I still don't like the suggestion. |
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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As a Brute with Shield Defense can attest, Shield Charge most assuredly and blessedly benefits from Fury. (ZOIKS!)
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
- Tank attacks, after all, fire off Gauntlet, and I *believe* Brute armors with damage components help with Fury build up (might be wrong on that, normally too busy to pay attention.)
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"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Not exactly: |
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
I'm fine with the suggestion. Scrappers, Brutes, and Stalkers all get the benefit of their inherents on their secondary, don't they?
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Death Shroud and Soul Transfer
Blazing Aura and Rise of the Pheonix
None of these have a chance to critical
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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On the balance, though, the secondaries *do* take advantage of inherent powers. I'll also note that both of those power lists list two things - an AOE damage aura (blazing aura, death shroud) and a rez that affects enemies (Soul transfer, ROTP.) Other rezzes don't affect enemies (/Regen, Willpower.) That may have been a consideration with them. As mentioned, though - quite a heavy list of powers in secondaries that *do* take advantage of the inherent.|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Not exactly:
Death Shroud and Soul Transfer Blazing Aura and Rise of the Pheonix None of these have a chance to critical |
EDIT: Note, even pool attacks on corruptors get "Scourge." I happen to be playing my Dark/Therm, used AS on a running Freak and - you guessed it - "Scourge." Shows up as a Critical in the combat log.
In addition to the already mentioned archetypes, Blasters also get the benefit of their "defiance" ability for all of the secondary power sets.
If you don't like something change it; if you can't change it, change the way you think about it.
~Mary Engelbreit
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Half right. Damage Auras will not build Fury, but they do benefit from the damage bonus.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I *believe* Brute armors with damage components help with Fury build up (might be wrong on that, normally too busy to pay attention.)
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And yes to the suggestion, it's not like it's going to suddenly boost the sets with damage over those without. Although I wouldn't give it to Dark Servant. Dark Servant is already a great power, seems like it would be flirting with balance too much for me. The set that would benefit the most would be Traps and I'd guess that to be the least common set. Giving it a minor boost would probably be a good thing.
"Mastermind Pets operate...differently, and aren't as easily fixed. Especially the Bruiser. I want to take him out behind the woodshed and pull an "old yeller" on him at times." - Castle
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Then again, Containment doesn't care how the target became contained. A teammate can cast the mez. Or even stationary targets, such as Turrets, Snipers, Lusca, etc. with are stationary due to the fact that they have an inherent power giving them an immobilize.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Controllers should get containment from any held target - including from Rad's choking cloud.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Yes and no. Giving scourge to Traps would require making new pseudo-pets. Currently both Trip Mine and Time Bomb do the same damage as the Blaster variants so if they redo them to add scourge the devs would likely decide to lower the damage to Corrupter levels (which would reduce damage by a third).
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Originally Posted by Oldeb
Half right. Damage Auras will not build Fury, but they do benefit from the damage bonus.
And yes to the suggestion, it's not like it's going to suddenly boost the sets with damage over those without. Although I wouldn't give it to Dark Servant. Dark Servant is already a great power, seems like it would be flirting with balance too much for me. The set that would benefit the most would be Traps and I'd guess that to be the least common set. Giving it a minor boost would probably be a good thing. |
Shows how much I know about Traps. 
So would it be a change for the worse or would the extra damage from scourge just make it a wash then?
"Mastermind Pets operate...differently, and aren't as easily fixed. Especially the Bruiser. I want to take him out behind the woodshed and pull an "old yeller" on him at times." - Castle
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Well it would do more damage when it scourged and less when it didn't. Overall it would depend on how you use it. If you pre-place the traps and pull enemies over them it would be unlikely to scourge but if you just drop one at your feet as close in protection it's got a decent chance of scourging.
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Originally Posted by Oldeb
Shows how much I know about Traps.
So would it be a change for the worse or would the extra damage from scourge just make it a wash then? |
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I'm not convinced that lower damage would be the result. After all, Defenders, Corruptors, and Blasters all share the same damage for Trip Mine and Time Bomb. Comparing Defenders to Corruptors for Traps, Defenders get an increase to most buffs and debuffs while keeping the same damage as both Corruptors and Blasters for these two powers.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Yes and no. Giving scourge to Traps would require making new pseudo-pets. Currently both Trip Mine and Time Bomb do the same damage as the Blaster variants so if they redo them to add scourge the devs would likely decide to lower the damage to Corrupter levels (which would reduce damage by a third).
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Defenders get an increase to their buff and debuff abilities, why not allow Corruptors scourge on their secondary powers?
If you don't like something change it; if you can't change it, change the way you think about it.
~Mary Engelbreit
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No they do not, please check your facts before posting. From the game here are the unbuffed level 50 numbers.|
Originally Posted by SpecialDelivery
I'm not convinced that lower damage would be the result. After all, Defenders, Corruptors, and Blasters all share the same damage for Trip Mine and Time Bomb. Comparing Defenders to Corruptors for Traps, Defenders get an increase to most buffs and debuffs while keeping the same damage as both Corruptors and Blasters for these two powers.
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For Corrupters, Blasters and Masterminds Trip Mine deals 111.22 lethal damage, 55.61 fire damage and has a 50% chance of dealing an additional 55.61 lethal damage. Time Bomb does 166.83 lethal and 111.21 fire damage. It doesn't say how much damage Detonation does although for our purposes this isn't really important.
For Defenders Trip Mine deals 72.29 lethal damage, 36.15 fire damage and has a 50% chance of dealing an additional 36.15 lethal damage. Time Bomb does 108.44 lethal and 72.29 fire damage.
The reason for this is very simple, when the devs port sets or individual powers that involve a pet or pseudo pet they tend not to rebalance them for the new AT until and unless it becomes a problem (since in general this means the power is better than it should be they rarely get complaints). A good example would be Fulcrum Shift. For a long, long time Controllers get a version of the power that was identical to the Defender version which made it overpowered. Eventually the devs decided to fix this and made a new pseudo pet thereby reducing the damage bonus for controllers to where it should be.
In the case of Traps when the devs originally made the set they kept the Blaster pseudo pets for Caltrops, Trip Mine and Time Bomb rather than making AT specific versions. In the case for Caltrops this wasn't a big deal, the damage that they do is trivial and all three ATs that had access to them at the time used the same slow modifier. Trip Mine and Time Bomb are significantly more powerful than they should be for Corruptors and Masterminds. When Traps was ported to Defenders the devs made new versions of all the pseudo-pets in the set because without that Traps Defenders would be very weak since they would be using Corrupter values for their buffs and debuffs while only having Defender level damage in their secondary.
Now I did make a minor error above when I stated that the Corrupter version should do 66.6% of the damage of the Blaster ones. Assuming that we take the relative difference between the Blaster and Defender values as canonical (this is justified since these two classes had pseudo-pets made specifically for them) these powers use the Melee Damage modifiers and not Ranged Damage so the Corruptor version should do 75% of the Blaster damage.
If the devs decided to make a new version of the pseudo-pet that scourged and had Blaster levels of damage they would effectively be giving the Traps versions of Trip Mine and Time Bomb a higher base level damage than the Blaster versions. To be fair they would then need to buff the Defender version to the equivalent base line damage, so Defender versions would do 86.6% of the current Blaster values rather than the 65% that they currently do.
As a final note I will say that this is a pet peeve of mine. I realize that the devs do not have infinite resources but I would really like to see them redo all pets and pseudo pets so that their abilities are based on the AT modifiers. Of course this would no doubt kick up a firestorm from all the people who would no doubt see it as a nerf.
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| Defenders get an increase to their buff and debuff abilities, why not allow Corruptors scourge on their secondary powers? |
EDIT: Just to make one thing clear, I am not advocating nerfing the damage of damage dealing powers in corrupter secondaries. Yes in some cases it would lower the damage but in others the damage dealt is based on Defender modifiers so it would actually be increased if the devs remade the pseudo pets (Oil Slick Arrow is a good example of this).
My apologies. It has been a while and I should have double checked the numbers for the Defenders Trip Mine and Time Bomb.
Total possible damage for Defender:
Caltrops = 125.12
Acid Mortar = 9.34
Seeker Drones = 13.90 per drone - max. 2
Trip Mine = 126.51
Time Bomb = 180.73
Total possible damage for Corruptor:
Caltrops = 125.12
Acid Mortar = 9.34
Seeker Drones = 13.90 per drone - max. 2
Trip Mine = 194.64
Time Bomb = 278.05
Total possible damage for Blaster (excluding "defiance" modifiers):
Caltrops = 125.12
Trip Mine = 194.64
Time Bomb = 278.05
Defender debuff/buff values (that differ from Corruptor):
Web Grenade - -62.50% strength to recharge for 15.00s on target (Ignores buffs and enhancements), -62.50% run speed for 15.00s on target, -62.50% fly speed for 15.00s on target
Acid Mortar - -26.60% resistance to all damage for 20.00s on target (Ignores buffs and enhancements) -26.60% defense for 20.00s on target
Force Field Generator - +13.30% strength to all defense for 4m 0s on target unresistable
Seeker Drones - -6.65% tohit for 40.00s on target, -26.60% strength to all damage for 40.00s on target (Ignores buffs and enhancements)
Corruptor debuff/buff values (that differ from Defender):
Web Grenade - -50.00% strength to recharge for 15.00s on target (Ignores buffs and enhancements), -50.00% run speed for 15.00s on target, -50.00% fly speed for 15.00s on target
Acid Mortar - -20.00% resistance to all damage for 20.00s on target (Ignores buffs and enhancements), -20.00% defense for 20.00s on target
Force Field Generator - +10.00% strength to all defense for 4m 0s on target unresistable
Seeker Drones - -5.00% tohit for 40.00s on target -20.00% strength to all damage for 40.00s on target Ignores buffs and enhancements
If you don't like something change it; if you can't change it, change the way you think about it.
~Mary Engelbreit
Defenders' inherent gives them an endurance discount on all powers, including secondary and pool powers. It's unfair that Corruptors only get Scourge and can only use it on some of their powers!
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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No worries we all do it from time to time. When I16 came out I was surprised to see that the Defender Acid Mortar and Seeker Drones do the same damage as the Corruptor ones. Since the devs re-did the pets to rebalance the debuffs I expected them to rebalance the damage as well. I guess they figured the damage was trivial so it wasn't worth it. Caltrops is also interesting since it's the only Traps power that didn't get rebalanced for Defenders (the run speed modifier should be 96% for defenders). My guess there is that since run speed debuffs are capped at 90% they left Caltrops as is so that Defenders don't cap run speed debuffs without slotting.|
Originally Posted by SpecialDelivery
My apologies. It has been a while and I should have double checked the numbers for the Defenders Trip Mine and Time Bomb.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
Defenders' inherent gives them an endurance discount on all powers, including secondary and pool powers. It's unfair that Corruptors only get Scourge and can only use it on some of their powers!
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Defender´s secondary just plain suck... It´s the worst inherent of all in my oppinion, since if you do your job as a Defender well it won´t be needed.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
Defenders' inherent gives them an endurance discount on all powers, including secondary and pool powers. It's unfair that Corruptors only get Scourge and can only use it on some of their powers!
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"Looks can be deceiving" - Statesman (in Memoriam)
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My interpretation of this message was not that the poster thought "Vigilance" was overpowered or that "Scourge" was not as good. I believe the poster may have just been reiterating the point that many Archetypes "special" abilities apply not only to their Primary Powers but also to their Secondary Sets as well.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
Defenders' inherent gives them an endurance discount on all powers, including secondary and pool powers. It's unfair that Corruptors only get Scourge and can only use it on some of their powers!
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If you don't like something change it; if you can't change it, change the way you think about it.
~Mary Engelbreit
This is a fairly straight forward suggestion that hopefully I don't complicate.
Stated simply: Any Corruptor Secondary Power set that deals damage should be allowed the scourge ability. Scourge, for those that are unsure, gives a power the chance (specifically 2.5% chance per every percentage point targets health is below 50%) to do double damage.
Now granted there are not a lot of secondary power sets for Corruptors that actually deal damage, but the ones that do should have scourge. After all, that is a Corruptor's "special" ability. To be fair, there does seem to be one ability that does allow scourge. The power Gale from the Storm Summoning line does give the scourge ability. This makes the absence of scourge from all other Corruptor secondary powers all the more strange.
Naming just a few of the Corruptor secondary powers that do not get scourge are:
Storm Summoning - Freezing Rain, Tornado, and Lightning Storm.
Dark Miasma - Howling Twilight and Dark Servant
Cold Domination - Sleet
Trick Arrow - Acid Arrow
Traps - Caltrops, Acid Mortar, Seeker Drones, Trip Mine, and Time Bomb
I thought that perhaps since some of the abilities mentioned are considered "pets", such as Tornado, Lightning Storm, Dark Servant, Seeker Drones, etc., that perhaps there was something against pets. However the Voltaic Sentinel's Electrical Bolt is allowed to scourge. Although Voltaic Sentinel is from Corruptor's primary power set Electrical Blast, this still at least shows it's not a problem with pets in particular.
A quote from the Corruptor description includes this statement, "As your foes are weakened, your (scourge) ability kicks in, increasing your damage to an enemy as their hit points drop." It specifically states an increase in your damage, making no distinction whether the damage comes from a primary or secondary power set.
So to summarize, please give the Corruptor's Secondary Power Sets that do damage the ability to scourge.
If you don't like something change it; if you can't change it, change the way you think about it.
~Mary Engelbreit