/disagree.
If you're seeing him as "just another mad criminal out of his league," you're not reading what's going on. And personally, I like that saving Statesman from another version of himself is the cherry on top of my career. I'd rather not have to hope I find a worthwhile TF group to do it.
While I'm still waiting for Manticore to answer my question, I firmly believe the 40+ content of this game is intended to make players feel like they are peers and rivals of the signature characters, not lackeys. So defeating Tyrant one-on-one and saving Statesman (or for villains, taking down Recluse and at least one of his Lieutenants) is a wholly appropriate storyline.
It's important to note that the respective top-level Task/Strike Force involves either taking down a hugely buffed Recluse and all his lieutenants, or taking on the entire Freedom Phalanx at once. And the Reichsman plot line has the man siphoning off the power of every other Marcus Cole in existence to reach his heights of power. That's why these plot lines require teams and not individuals - it's not because the signature characters are mightier than the players, but because the signature characters are either en masse or wearing plot armour.
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Hehee |
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
wearing plot armour.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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I am reading what is going on, but apparently I get something different from it than you do. The arc makes me feel like he is the weakest of the group, forced to trick States to trap him rather than overpowering him.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
/disagree.
If you're seeing him as "just another mad criminal out of his league," you're not reading what's going on. And personally, I like that saving Statesman from another version of himself is the cherry on top of my career. I'd rather not have to hope I find a worthwhile TF group to do it. |
For who is should be the arc really does not portray him in a very powerful light. Perhaps a bit of a rewrite would work as well. Anything so that he does not come off as the weakest Statesman of the bunch.
Given all the Praetorian stuff will be getting a re-write, the old stuff included at some point means this will probably change.
Bear in mind the PI stuff is all fairly old, and showing it.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Indeed we've already seen that the Praetorian NPCs are getting a once over. They just buffed but Malaise's group a bit.
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they left the PI arc Tyrant relatively weak (though probably a bit tougher than he is now) and instead included a TF/SF where you fight Emperor Cole who proves to be one mean son of a gun.
(Afterall, Recluse isn't anything special unless fighting him on the STF.)
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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Missed something, then. See, they *can't* hurt Statesman, basically - it's a bit out of sync with the rest of the lore, as Nemesis (for instance) has no problem fighting other Nemesisss....ess....es. There's probably some "well of the furies" handwaving going on with states, though. |
Originally Posted by Calash
I am reading what is going on, but apparently I get something different from it than you do. The arc makes me feel like he is the weakest of the group, forced to trick States to trap him rather than overpowering him.
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| For who is should be the arc really does not portray him in a very powerful light. Perhaps a bit of a rewrite would work as well. Anything so that he does not come off as the weakest Statesman of the bunch. |
I was always under the impression that Tyrant wasn't looking to kill Statesman in the first place. He's captured in that weird stasis field because he's a better conversation piece that way, not because Tyrant couldn't beat him in an out and out fight.
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
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From the arc:|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
I was always under the impression that Tyrant wasn't looking to kill Statesman in the first place. He's captured in that weird stasis field because he's a better conversation piece that way, not because Tyrant couldn't beat him in an out and out fight.
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| You remember how the Praetorians weren't able to use their own tech to scan States? Well, our best theory on that is that Statesman is physically so similar to Tyrant that his presence in the Praetorian dimension is never quite complete. It's as if there just isn't enough room for him there. The upshot is that Statesman is impervious to Praetorian technology. And it's impervious to him! He can't break out of that cell, not on his own. You have to help him! |
It's just a theory. 
Not to mention says nothing about whether or not that would stop Tyrant from decking our boy in blue.
(But yeah, I haven't done that arc in aaaaaages.)
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
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The man essentially owns his own dimension. How much more powerful do you need him to get? Should he juggle planets or something? The Statesman is invincible in Praetorian Earth because he's a Mary Sue, but even despite that, he's crucified over Tyrant's throne and going nowhere.|
Originally Posted by Calash
I am reading what is going on, but apparently I get something different from it than you do. The arc makes me feel like he is the weakest of the group, forced to trick States to trap him rather than overpowering him.
For who is should be the arc really does not portray him in a very powerful light. Perhaps a bit of a rewrite would work as well. Anything so that he does not come off as the weakest Statesman of the bunch. |
And I definitely do NOT want the arc pulled and turned into a TF. We have enough plot locked away in TFs where no-one ever gets the chance to read the narrative. We don't need more. And we definitely don't need more content that makes us feel like chumps. I very much agree that taking out other-dimension Statesman and the other-dimension Freedom Phalanx single-handedly works really well for a hero's shining moment.
I am not a wimp. I shouldn't have to beg and plead and band together with seven of my buddies to take out one of them. THEY should have to band together to take me on. That arc does just that, and I love it for it. By all means, update the Praetorians and clean up the zillions of text errors, but do NOT turn it into a TF.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'd guess that Nemesis being able to face himself (though I don't believe the two actually confront each other personally during the arc) because of the sheer odds that the two shells have as much in common as the two Coles.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Missed something, then. See, they *can't* hurt Statesman, basically - it's a bit out of sync with the rest of the lore, as Nemesis (for instance) has no problem fighting other Nemesisss....ess....es. There's probably some "well of the furies" handwaving going on with states, though.
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Since the vast majority of the Nemesis body is metal, all it takes is a slightly different ore, or even metal from a different vein and they're no longer 'the same being'.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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Agreed.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The man essentially owns his own dimension. How much more powerful do you need him to get? Should he juggle planets or something? The Statesman is invincible in Praetorian Earth because he's a Mary Sue, but even despite that, he's crucified over Tyrant's throne and going nowhere.
And I definitely do NOT want the arc pulled and turned into a TF. We have enough plot locked away in TFs where no-one ever gets the chance to read the narrative. We don't need more. And we definitely don't need more content that makes us feel like chumps. I very much agree that taking out other-dimension Statesman and the other-dimension Freedom Phalanx single-handedly works really well for a hero's shining moment. I am not a wimp. I shouldn't have to beg and plead and band together with seven of my buddies to take out one of them. THEY should have to band together to take me on. That arc does just that, and I love it for it. By all means, update the Praetorians and clean up the zillions of text errors, but do NOT turn it into a TF. |
Massacring Phalanx/Vindicator members with heavy firepower is very satisfying. Especially Valkyrie...her and her horrible 'Come back in X minutes' MoG. Eesh.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Well, Tyant sits at Lev50 no matter when you complete the arc so say you go through the arc, like I do, at 46... Solo even a lev50 EB is insane for a lev46 and I fought him as a scrappie, blaster, and tanker. I usually wind up pulling a team together for anyone that wants the Badge associated with it. Yes, he's a bit easy, but I view it like this...
You're fighting Tyrant on our terms with us bringing the fight to him. As others have stated, wait until GR comes out. I am almost certain there will be a new TF/SF dealing with Praetoria, maybe even more than one. Imagine how Tyrant will be cornered (or springing a trap) for us where things are set to his advantage.
I say graphically beef up Tyrant and maybe push his defense a smidge higher, but not too much. I like my two Praetorian Arcs, they finish off the career of every hero I make.
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I agree. I enjoy taking on signature heroes and villains BY MYSELF. It makes the low-level trudge all the more rewarding and it makes the satisfaction of reaching the pinnacle of your power all the more satisfying.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Agreed.
Massacring Phalanx/Vindicator members with heavy firepower is very satisfying. Especially Valkyrie...her and her horrible 'Come back in X minutes' MoG. Eesh. |
And, yeah, elite bosses with Tier 9 powers are just annoying. It doesn't add to the fight, it just makes you come back in three minutes. And it's even worse when their Tier 9 powers recharge faster than they expire. Damn Mynx and her never-ending Elude!
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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For a man who owns his own dimension my first meeting with him was slapping him around the room without having to pop an inspiration.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The man essentially owns his own dimension. How much more powerful do you need him to get? Should he juggle planets or something? The Statesman is invincible in Praetorian Earth because he's a Mary Sue, but even despite that, he's crucified over Tyrant's throne and going nowhere.
And I definitely do NOT want the arc pulled and turned into a TF. We have enough plot locked away in TFs where no-one ever gets the chance to read the narrative. We don't need more. And we definitely don't need more content that makes us feel like chumps. I very much agree that taking out other-dimension Statesman and the other-dimension Freedom Phalanx single-handedly works really well for a hero's shining moment. I am not a wimp. I shouldn't have to beg and plead and band together with seven of my buddies to take out one of them. THEY should have to band together to take me on. That arc does just that, and I love it for it. By all means, update the Praetorians and clean up the zillions of text errors, but do NOT turn it into a TF. |
I think the key is, as stated above, a rewrite of the arc. The Tyrant arc never felt like a shining moment to me and I think this was due to the perceived power levels of the group. I felt more victory taking out his troops.
Personal perception, and it appears I am in the minority.
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You also missed the part where having two of the same people who drank of the Well of Furies from different dimensions in the same dimension was weakening Tyrant. The post-mission debriefing was pretty explicit in that.
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Originally Posted by Calash
For a man who owns his own dimension my first meeting with him was slapping him around the room without having to pop an inspiration.
I think the key is, as stated above, a rewrite of the arc. The Tyrant arc never felt like a shining moment to me and I think this was due to the perceived power levels of the group. I felt more victory taking out his troops. Personal perception, and it appears I am in the minority. |
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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Poor Tyrant.
As the game site today he is the whipping boy of the Statesman Inderdimentional Clone Family. Easy for a level 50 to solo thanks to the EB patch and generally frowned upon as the weakest of the group. His counterpart, Reichman, takes a full team and some strategy to finally take down. Even our goodie goodie Statesman ends up being a bit more difficult in most situations (VEAT arc being the major exception).
The arc portrays Emperor Cole not so much the all-powerful leader of an Utopia, but just another mad criminal who is out of his league.
I know that it was mentioned that the arcs were going to be adjusted at some point in the future. I would suggest pulling Tyrant from the arcs and having a taskforce/strikeforce with him as the main badguy at the end. Make him a real threat for a change and not just a footnote in a level 50's travel through the AV arcs.