Idea to make Defender nuking more useful.

I posted this in the defender forums, but it was pointed out that it might be more appropriate here.

Just a little idea that popped into my head playing my emp/sonic the other day. Wouldn't it be neat if defender nukes could be used while mezzed, or even acted as a break free? One of the main complaints about using nukes is that it disables your ability to actively use your primary to defend the team for a short bit. Sure, most of the nukes have a nice debuff or stun to counteract this, but it is still the perception. If you're mezzed you're sure not using your primary or any other powers to defend! This would give more defenders an incentive to actively take and use their nuke, and it would be used in situations where it's impact would be most appreciated.

I'm not sure how this might work with crashless, quick recharging powers like rain and full auto. Perhaps they could be simply used while mezzed, while the big nukes are usable and act as a break free. The recharge is slow enough on the crashless nukes that you wouldn't be making a mezzed attack chain out of it any time soon, but the damage is significant enough that it could be quite helpful.

The longer recharge normal nukes are on such a long timer that I don't think this would be an abusively powerful anti-mez strategy.

What do you think?

Even if it did act as a break free, why take a power on a large recharge, still empties your end bar.......and basically has all of the disadvantages it does now and whose function could be instead done with a single inspiration (ignoring momentarily the current benefits, for the sake of this particular argument).

This sounds nothing like a nuke, and instead yet another stealthy call for mez protection.

I really don't have a huge issue with mez on my defenders. It can be irritating at times, but I don't have a problem dealing with it on the whole. The main issue I am addressing here is the reluctance of many defenders to use or even take their nukes. As to the break free issue, that is partly why I don't think it would be an unbalanced addition to the power. I'm not suggesting this as a core mechanic change to defender nukes, but simply a small, useful perk that would introduce a new reason for a defender to use their nuke.

Previous situation:

Defender held, no break frees in inventory: Oh no, my team is without my wonderful support, I am temporarily useless!

New situation:

Defender held, no break frees in inventory: Well, I'm held with no break frees, but wait! (Dreadful Wail). Oh boy, now all my enemies are stunned and/or dead! Though I have no end to assist in other ways, at least I bought us some time/ended the battle.


This isn't a suggestion meant to rebalance the Defender AT but merely a useful and thematic addition to an underused class of powers. Personally I do use my defender nukes with fair regularity. I enjoy the secondary effects and the big chunk of damage. This mechanic would allow defenders with nukes to add some support (and damage!) in a situation where they could not always before. As you noted it is on a long recharge and the effect can be reproduced with a break free. These are some of the main reasons I don't think it would affect the balance of the AT or secondary sets.

I think that you should try playing a defender with a debuff primary and then come back and tell us again how bad defender nukes are.

I think taking the nuke for many depends on their Primary.

Force Fields...I'd take the nuke.

Sonic...I'd likely take it.

Traps...For sure.

Cold & Thermal...maybe. I didn't on my Cold/, but I considered it.

Rad...to many toggle debuffs for me to want to take it and use it on teams.

Dark...one I'm thinking about, because on non AV battles, I don't always find Darkest Night useful, depending on the team, when you get into higher levels.

Trick Arrow...I would take it.

Now that's just the nukes with a crash. Full Auto and Rain of Arrows? I'd take those nukes everytime, no matter what Primary.

What I am saying is that it would present them with a situation in which it would almost always be desirable to nuke. Mez would be like a license to nuke. Better to nuke than sit there and do nothing! I'm more interested in getting people to click on the nuke than I am in finding ways out of mez, but I do think it would be fun to explode your way out of mez.

It may not be a perfect or incredible idea that addresses any major concerns for defenders or anyone else for that matter, but I do think it would be fun and bring a little more attention and some small utility to defender nukes. Of course I have no expectation of anyone magically implementing this, but it is fun to speculate about what could be possible and useful.

Allowing them to nuke while mezzed would of course encourage them to nuke more! It would encourage them to nuke when mezzed. Nuking when mezzed versus nuking never or only on random whim is more nuking.

Hmm what if they buffed the team depending on how they debuff the enemy?

For example;

Radiations nuke (since Rad Blast is a -def set), supplies anyone within 25 Yards a decent Defense buff for 15ish seconds.

Dark' nuke could supply a +to hit buff

Energy could supply KB protection

Sonic could give +Res buffs out.

Elec could give +Recovery

Psychic could give +Recharge

and Ice could give +Recharge or +speed (or both),

Rain of Arrows and Full Auto would be unchanged.

Concept wise its "leaching" from the enemy and giving to the team.. Makes it Defenderishy sounding, and helps encourage nuke usage.

Perhaps it would be better if we popped up messages at random in bold letters on their screen saying PLEASE EXPLODE FOR BONUS! If you nuke while the message is up, you get a million influence and a cash register sound plays.

That's how I feel when I nuke in the first place though. If only I could sublimate that joy to others!

Anyhow, I guess that's all there is to that.

I have a suggestion to make defenders not only nuke more, but be more likely to take attacks (even though they won't really suffer if they don't). I think the defender inherent power is a crock of rubbish, personally. Don't get me wrong, it is useful... but only when teaming, lol. Besides (forgive me for my age showing), back in my day we didn't have inherent powers! Only scrappers did, and then villains came along and there goes the neighborhood! Ahem, sorry about that old man outburst, but joking aside, we got along just fine without the lame Vigilance move they gave defenders. EVERY class in the game, depending on the build, has endurance issues. To give defenders something that mitigates this, but only if they have a team, and only if their team is dying (and considering their job is to keep their team alive, they must not be doing it well) is just ridiculous. Slot end reducers like everyone else or get Stamina.

Defenders need an inherent power that gives them a benefit regardless of teaming, regardless of primary set, and regardless of secondary set. My idea also happens to help with the idea of making defenders use Nukes more.

NEW DEFENDER INHERENT POWER:

I think Defenders need something all-around BETTER than an endurance discount that only works when teamed. Everyone else has to slot end reducers and maybe pick up Stamina if they don't like the costs of their powers, and THEY don't get an end discount. You need something that SCREAMS "Defender" by working with what they are designed for rather than just alleviating a pain that every single class has to deal with.

For example...

What do Defenders do:
Heal/Buff/Debuff + Minor damage if they feel like it.

What can be done to help them:
Improve Heals/Buffs/Debuffs, or improve their minor damage.

Problems:
Improving their Buffs can sometimes be overkill (bubbling an SR scrapper vs. critically buffing an SR scrapper would probably give the same general amount of defense because you'd reach the cap either way for the most part). Merely improving their damage would just make no sense. Only improving healing doesn't help non-healers. Mez protection would be inappropriate.

Possible Solution:
Give Defenders a buff that improves with their other moves being used, much like Blasters get to their damage while using defiance. Make it so as a Defender uses his/her blast moves, he/she'd gain a buff to healing/buffing/debuffing that increases until finally being unleashed on a teammate. Imagine your dark defender blasting a boss, then suddenly pulling off a massive strength Twilight Grasp. Or a Force Fielder using energy blasts until suddenly giving the tank a stronger shield to help support the unexpected extra spawn that ambushed your team. Or an empath shooting mind blasts around then unleashing a heal that brings the tank to full.

Don't get me wrong, this is only half of it. Now, you have a bubbler who has to reapply all his bubbles because they are wearing off. He rebubbles 7 people and then unleashes a blast that could put a Blaster to shame, but uses up all that stored energy that was gained by buffing. Imagine an Empath healing her little heart out but not quite keeping up, so she Nukes and clears the room.

Make two bars that behave like Domination, one building as you attack, and the other as you heal/buff/debuff (or just have one bar color coded for the current effect that is building). For example, a Fury colored bar builds up as you heal, telling you that you have reserve damage waiting for your next attack, but a light blueish bar building as you attack to let you know your defending will have a bonus when you next unleash it. Make it only buff the next move, but make the bars increase much more than Fury and Domination do, since it's meant to allow you to alternate jobs. This would by no means make you a blaster, but it would make your secondary set have a purpose while still making your primary set your focus. You could even leave the name Vigilance.

You could even make it so the power of the move used (damage dealt/healing dealt/strength of the buff, etc.) would determine how much of the bar fills. For example, using moves you don't get very often like Adrenaline Boost or EMP would probably max your damage buff in one application, and using your Nuke in your blast set should probably fill your heal/buff/debuff effect. You may have to wait for your end to come back to reap the benefits, but all the more reason for moves like those to max the buff.

This would help Trick Arrows too (launch a bunch of arrows, then blast the group. Blast some more to build up your TA debuffs then unleash a wicked debuff on your next trick shot. Spray a few more debuffs then unload a powerful blast again. Doesn't this sound fluid, fun, and thematically perfect?

Vigilance: Being alert to the situation at hand and always being ready when needed... Sounds right to me, lol. You are shooting and suddenly, DUTY CALLS! and you do what defenders do best. Then you are healing and a teammate is under attack by a boss and you melt his face to the floor! Personally I like it.

Generally, the mechanics exist. Power Boost pretty much does the effect that is intended here for the first buff type, but it would have to include more total stat boosts (such as resistance buff increase, etc.) and no damage/accuracy. The second buff would involve only damage, which is something fury already has working, except it would only be applied to the next move used, so the buff would have to be larger than Fury. Make a stat like Fury that adds up and acts as a multiplier when it's unleashed by using a move from your other set. Primary moves boost your secondary damage, and secondary moves boost your primary abilities. Defenders would still play as they do now, but with potential for greatness, just like the other inherent powers do for their respective classes.

Though I imagine that such a mechanic would require significant development, it's fair to say that most any major change to vigilance would. I do like the fluid trade-off your version allows, Archon. It also gets rid of one of the major problems of the oft-suggested "critical buff" version of vigilance in that it doesn't encourage pointless spamming of buffs/debuffs in search of a random crit.

That said, I would encourage you to post this in a stand-alone thread so it can get the attention of our community here. My little suggestion in this thread is just a silly but neat bonus to a somewhat underused power, where yours is certainly geared towards a larger perceived problem. I would be happy to see more defender nuking for any reason.

Want to get folks to nuke more? Easy.

Make them like the "nukes" my Fortunata and /Psi Dom have.

tl;dr: reduce their damage, up their accuracy and drop the crashes.

I would also say the Fortunata nuke is the way to go for defenders, most defenders end up running leadership toggles or debuff toggles ect.
All a defender nuke does at the moment is enough damage to make the mobs really annoyed with the defender and bring all toggles to a stop :P

Just a note on the accuracy comment. Defender nukes and nukes in general already have incredibly high accuracy.