Playing the markets for the first time

Well, I cannot believe it has taken me about ten months to finally realize that by "playing" and utilizing the markets, you can help yourself greatly in getting the best enhancements out there for your toon. It all happened when I came across a thread about someone wanting to install a bank to transfer influence from one toon to another. I read someone else's post that said they earned the majority of influence from buying and selling through the market.

That got me thinking, why in the heck was I never using the market to begin with? Maybe I was too lazy to even try or maybe I thought that everything was way overpriced to even be considered for purchased? So, with that being said, I dusted the cobwebs off my first Hero 50 Blaster, and put her to work this past Double XP weekend. Stopping off at Wentworth's I proceeded to sell some fine (rare) enhancements I had and couldn't believe how simple it was. Now I know how some users can amount tons of influence and we're talking Billions in influence just by playing the market. After a few hours my enhancements sold for what I was asking.

Not having worked in a complete strategy yet, I would view the current market for what the last five bids where for that item and maybe either match that bid or go higher when selling. Currently, I have 15 of my 16 slots full awaiting buyers. Some Salvage and some Enhancements. So, far, nothing has moved yet. I have checked the going rate and I am right in the ballpark for what I am asking. I do know that your open orders to sell will remain active unless you don't use that toon for 60 days.

So, in conclusion, what I need to know is this: I currently have 16 slots available to place items to bid on, how do I get more slots? Do I need to sell a certain amount before I get awarded more slots? Second, having just started playing the market, is having patients the best advice one could give? For example, I currently have 15 slots full and for the past two days, nothing has moved. I do know based on what I read in the "How to use the Markets Guide" that it is pretty much a random thing and eventually I will probably get the item sold. Keep in mind that I am not way overpriced in what I am asking, in fact, I try to base my prices on what that current item may have sold for. I do know that Billionaire influence' user out there will pay if they need that item as they can spend influence like Drunken Sailors.

One final note, there is this "rare" unknown type salvage that I read about. I believe its called "purples". I tried to check paragonwiki on this but couldn't find out what these items where. Does anyone have any idea what these items might be or is it always a complete random drop that no one knows what that purple might look like? I couldn't find the answer in the Market Guide. Any additional input for those that play the market a lot would be much appreciated.

Hmmmm...

Taking this post at face value, I'll toss out some thoughts for you to mull..

1> XP = experience. Inf = Influence/Infamy... XP is not to be had at the
market (in game XP at least). Billions in Inf can be made however.

2> Selling/Buying isn't random. It's based (almost entirely) on
Supply/Demand -> leads to "natural pricing" (tech term: Equilibrium Price).

Your List / Bid price in relation to Equilibrium Price will dictate how quickly,
or even if, it will sell... For instance, our esteemed colleague Fulmen's has
some Luck Charms listed for 2B each... I'm certain he understands that
those won't sell for a Very Long Time, because they're WAY above the
natural Equilibrium Price for Luck Charms (which is typically 5K - 50K or so).

3> Market Transaction slots are gained by level (1 at L1, 4 at L6, etc) and
also, there are a couple crafting badges that will earn you some. I forget
the exact number (I have 21/24 in my head), but you can find the details
on ParagonWiki.

4> The 60 day rule no longer applies - as long as your account is in good
standing, regardless of whether you log in or not. If your account is
unpaid (and presumably dormant), then the 60 day rule will come into
play.

5> In terms of strategies, there are all kinds of them (including the one in
my sig). Wander through the Guides section, and you'll see plenty. Also,
keep in mind that strategies can be "blended" - you're not limited to any
particular approach, and of course, some strategies work better at
different times, and with different requirements...

6> Double XP (and other events) are always volatile in the sense that for
a brief few days, the player base changes their behaviour in response to
the event. This, obviously has a corresponding effect on the market.

Even outside of specific events, there is flux. Patterns change due to any
number of reasons. A key skill to develop is watching items/niches that
interest you to understand how they behave. Another is learning to detect
a bargain when you see it and capitalize on it.

7> Take the interface, and the Last 5 with a grain of salt... The last 5
can be manipulated (though it's usually not worth the trouble), and of
course, the interface is subject to lag, typos, and other silliness.

8> If you have questions. Ask. The regulars in here don't brook whiners
or morons gently, but they show excellent patience and provide top notch
advice to those with a sincere interest in learning how to Market.

9> Patience Matters - both in buying and selling, but keep it in context, it
isn't the be-all or end-all.

10> Have Fun.

Cheers,
4


PS> I too, live 3 inches from the Sun in Phx

PPS> "Purples" are L50 only recipe drops. They are very rare, but you can get
them in drops from Bosses and Mobs that are at least L47. Due to the rarity,
they sell for LOTS of inf.

Always pay attention to how many of an item are for sale, and (to a lesser extent) how many people are bidding. As an example, if I want to list a crafted level 50 mako's bite IO and the average going price is, say, 4 million influence, but there are usually more than 80 for sale, then if I list my IO for 4 million it might take weeks or even months to sell. Why? Because the lowest price gets the first bid placed at or over that price. So if, say, 75 of the other 80 of those mako's IOs are for sale at 2.5 million each, they will all have to sell before mine sells. And in the meantime, people might be listing more of them for less than I'm listing. ^_^

On the other hand if I list it for 1 influence it might sell immediately... for 1 influence. Or it might sell for 4 million influence if that's the highest outstanding bid and nothing else is listed for that low. Trying to figure out how low you can list it so that it doesn't sell for too low but it sells in a reasonable time frame is the trick.

If you see 4 others for sale, and the last 5 have sold for more than 4 million, you're probably safe to list at 4 million or even higher. Scarce supply will drive up the price.

Likewise, it took me a while to get into market play. I was introduced to this game by a friend who still does things the old-fashioned way with TO/DO/SO, rarely bothering with IO's. But as I learned more about how to play the game and how nice IO sets (and even generic IO's) can be, I went straight into crafting with my first three characters, each on different sides/servers, earning their crafting badges. From there, then, it became fairly easy to earn inf through selling memorized crafted generic IO's. It takes a while to get a grasp of the whole range of IO sets (including those purple ones you mentioned), what they do, what levels they run in, and how often and how much they buy and sell for on the market. In short, this knowledge isn't acquired overnight and in my case, anyway, it involved quite a lot of reading in the Paragon wiki site and then seeing how they moved on the market.

You're right about the motivation, too - "you can help yourself greatly in getting the best enhancements out there for your toon", as you put it. While there might be this perception that market players are ebil scrooges out to hoard all the inf in the game, the reality is that most of us here work to acquire the inf so that we can specifically improve our characters and enjoy playing them at a higher capability level.

As far as pricing goes, check out the market guides. Also, there was a thread a while ago about "how long is long enough" to be holding an item up for sale. I put up this post: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...50#post2270650 that you might find useful about how to set your selling prices. In general, you want to ask somewhat less than the price you actually want or expect to get.

Regarding transaction slots, it depends on level and sales badges earned. You get a base of 16 slots at level 40-50. You can also pick up an additional 5 slots through earning sales badges (at 250, 1000, 3000, 5000 and 7000 items sold), for a maximum of 21, as far as I know. More on this and also recipe slots, salvage slots, etc. here: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Transaction_slots

Regarding purple sets, there's a short paragraph in Paragon wiki here: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Invent...Purple.22_Sets You might also want to browse through the IO set lists and look for the purple sets here: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Invent...hancement_Sets

In any case, have fun and good luck!

You probably want to pay attention to the times listed in the Last 5. If you're trying to sell something for a high end price, it'll likely take a moderate amount of time compared to the Last 5 list. If the Last 5 is only 10 minutes (likely for certain Salvage for example), you can probably sell high. If the Last 5 prices cover a month, then you're better off just unloading the item for a lower price.

The Market has cycles. Things are more expensive on the weekends when more people play. Things are more expensive during the evening on fast moving items. If you put up items for sale on Monday that are based on the Last 5 prices from the weekend, you may have to wait till the next weekend for them to sell. You can take advantage of this by buying things during the week (low) and selling them on the weekend (high).

If you want to earn your Inf "honestly", you can become a Crafter. You need to earn the memorization badges for one or more Common IOs, and that will let you craft at half price and without needing a recipe. For example, your average person who wants a level 50 Healing IO would need a recipe (which can be purchased for almost 500k at a crafting table, though you can usually find it much cheaper in the Market), Salvage (cheap), and the crafting cost (another nearly 500k). After you earn the memorization badge, you can craft something like that without the Recipe, and the crafting cost goes down to about 250k. You can earn 100k per slot pretty easily, and frequently.

Part of the skill in using the Market is managing your slots. Maybe you can buy 10 Regenerating Flesh for 500 and sell them for 5k, but that's only a profit of 45k after Market fees. You're better off buying 10 Hamidon Goos for 800k and selling them for 1m. It's a bigger investment, but you get 1m profit after fees. After a while, you'll build up enough Inf that slots are really the limiting factor. Buying and selling the same item is called Flipping. People usually flip Rare Salvage or Recipes, and the fact that you can flip 10 of these per slot usually gives you a higher return per slot than Crafting. When you hit the big league, you can start flipping purples.

As you earn more Inf, you can move up to something we call Crapping. It's a cross between Flipping and Crafting. Buy a stack of Set IO Recipes, craft them, and sell them for a big markup. People pay a premium for crafted Enhancements. If you put in patient bids for the recipes and Salvage, you can usually make a couple million profit per slot easily. That recipe becomes your niche. If you can set up a SG just for yourself and your alts, you can use your alts as your sales force. Level them up to say 10, have your main Marketeers buy and craft stuff, store it in the SG, have your lowbie alts get it from SG storage, then sell it in the Market. It's a great way to get more transaction slots, though it can take some time to get it all working well. Plus you'll need some way to transfer Inf around, as your lowbies will be earning Inf by selling stuff but your buyer will need that Inf to buy new Recipes and Salvage. This sort of thing is much easier with 2 accounts. But even with a single account, you'll be able to have a lot of niches, and the Inf will roll in.

Beware of competition. If you see a lot of stock for sale in an item that moves quickly, there may well already be a crapper in that niche. Another dead giveaway is if you see multiple Last 5 recipes sold for the same odd price. (Some Marketeers mark their niches this way.) You can try to find another one or bust their niche (undercut them on Enhancement sales, or overbid for recipes to starve them out). Understand that the Last 5 prices are what buyers paid, and not necessarily what sellers listed. There was a crafted Enhancement I was crapping and selling for 7M regularly, but people would pay 10M for it because that's what the Last 5 said. Someone seeing that and the large stock for sale might assume that I was listing my things at 9-10M. Someone trying to bust my niche would likely offer their Enhancements for sale around 8M, but that's above my price, so their stuff wouldn't sell.

One important thing to remember is that the Market is a PvP zone. You are competing against other players who are going to be using the same strategies to earn massive amounts of Inf, so they can purple out their Warshades (inside joke). Be flexible. If Luck Charms drop to 500 Inf, buy all of them that you can. The price is going to go back up. If someone tries to bust your niche, you can run or fight. Don't get too heavily invested in a single thing. People flipping Platinums up to 5M probably made a huge amount of Inf, but then they lost a lot of it when AE came out and prices dropped.

Finally, when you hit 1 Billion Inf, post a screenshot.

TopDoc covered everything well. There are a couple of things I'd like to mention, because I'm human and correcting things that are basically correct to start with is what we DO.

1) TopDoc mentioned a couple million profit per item from crapping. I don't have too much trouble making more than that. There are a LOT of niches where it's like "1 million for the recipe, 1 million for the salvage, crafted items going for 10 million, I list it for 8.1 and get the 10 million anyway". Given the 10% fee to Wents, that is only 7 million profit on a 2 million investment. Once you get up to a certain price you'll make less percentagewise but more overall. Ffor instance, if you can crap LoTG +Recharge level 50's for 70 million buy price and 100 million sell price, you're making 20 million on your money. I don't have any idea if those specific numbers are right these days. People watch that particular niche very very closely.

2) I don't bust people's niches. I don't hold onto a niche to bust. I like to get in, move a couple of items, then do something else. I fear and hate being stuck with inventory. There are probably people running in most of the niches I've made money on, they were probably there at the time, and they probably never noticed my inroads. I like zooming in and grabbing bargains and zooming out.

Most people probably are looking for something they DON'T have to pay attention to, instead of something they DO, so running a couple niches is probably a smarter way to go.

I tend to do what Archie does. I don't make a ton of influence but I do make enough to get what I want. If you follow what is said in this forum you can do much better that I do. BTW, looks like triple digits this weekend here in Phoenix, I guess it's underwear again this Halloween. ;P

UberGuy had it right. Create the SG, sginvite a friend (can be level 1), switch to each of your sales force chars, have your friend sginvite them to the same SG, then have your friend quit the SG. You'll need enough Inf for a cheap room (Oversight Center maybe) and an Enhancement Storage bin, but you can get that if you have 8 (I think) chars in the SG. Coalition with another SG if you want telepad access, as it's unlikely you'll be able to buy much for your personal base unless you farm a lot. This should be a base that you never allow other people to enter. Disable the settings that let teammates or coalition members enter. There's been at least one bug that let people steal from bins if they could enter the base. And while there's a new permission system, I wouldn't trust it with my loot.

Your high level Marketeer buys recipes and Salvage, crafts things, and drops them in the Enhancement Bin. Your lowbies grab stuff from the bin and sell it. You need to transfer some seed Inf to your lowbies so they have enough to list things at a proper price initially. But soon enough they'll be rich, and you'll have to find a way to transfer Inf back to your high level buyer. Alternatively, have each lowbie manage his own niche. Use a couple slots to buy stuff, and the rest of the slots to sell.

Actually, here's a third option that doesn't need any outside help once you get it running. Have the lowbies manage their own niche, but drop extra Enhancements in storage. For example, say it costs about 20M to buy 10 recipes plus salvage and craft them. Selling for 8M each, you can make that back by selling 3. Have the lowbie drop the extra 7 in SG storage, and your high level chars who want Inf can just grab them to sell.

To which I'll add...

If your interest in an SG is purely for marketing, you can do away with
power, tps, medbays or any other frills entirely.

I have a couple (on different servers) that are nothing more than the
entry room, a workshop (get the 1 that holds 9 storage items), and
then, I put in an enhancement storage item (holds 100 crafted IO's)
and some storage racks (30 salvage apiece).

The workshop is 100K and the Enhance Storage is 95K (iirc). Salvage
racks are 15K each. You get 20K per alt in the SG (for up to 15 alts),
so, you can cover all the costs right there.

Failing the 15 alts part (as I do), it takes some time to build up that
much prestige, but leveling your toons in SG mode from L1 gets it
done fairly quickly and you can add storage piecemeal to fit the budget.

Any other "perks" of a base I can cover other ways, or don't need at all,
so my marketeers at least have found this to be a useful approach.


Regards,
4