Is a defenders Fulcrum Shift stronger than a controllers?

I was wondering if a defenders kinetic powers are stronger than a controllers, particularly in regards to Fulcrum Shift.

If not, then why be a kinetic defender when you could be a .../kin troller and get the same powers but with the added damage of a controllers primary?

Ok well I made a Kin/Rad defender and worked him up to 33 and now I regret it, I could have made something else lol.
I should have asked before, oh well

The question of whether a Controller can do more damage with its Primary or a Defender can do more damage with its Secondary is a controversial one. The truth is, probably a Controller CANNOT do more damage with its Primary. The advantage that a Controller has in damage dealing really only comes into play once you get into Epic Pool attacks, and with the additional damage of pets.

The truth, though, is that a Defender's Kinetic powers ARE stronger than a Controller's. According to City of Data, if you go through the psuedo-pets summoned by Fulcrum Shift, you find that the stackable portion of the damage buff is the same for both Defenders and Controllers, at +25% per target. All of the rest of the effects are proportional to the AT modifiers, though, with Defenders having a -25% debuff of the target's damage, and a non-stacking +50% buff to their damage and those around them, while Controllers get a -20% debuff per target, and the non-stacking buff is +40%. So you are talking about yet another implementation with a psuedo-pet which is not strictly in the ratio of the AT modifiers of the caster. This is a known issue and a problem, but it is not universally true.

I'd be more concerned about Corruptors, which have exactly the same Kinetic powers as a Controller. Of course, Corruptors have their ranged attacks in their Primary, and an Inherent that doubles their damage, although not to the extent that Controllers do. Still, there are certain Blast sets, such as Sonic Attack, for which I would say the damage of either a Corruptor or a Defender could be comparable. The unfortunate thing is that it comes down to comparisons of individual sets to each other.

Kin/Rad defender sounds like a pretty good AoE combo. Not Archery good, but good nonetheless

As far as grouping goes SB is the same in all the iterations of Kinetics. So from the PoV of the "SB please" populace, it doesn't matter which one you pick.

Though if they ever give /kin to MM's I think all others will fall to the wayside of the "Kinja's" (tm).

This actually begs a question I've been kicking around:

For someone who really wants to taste the awesomeness of an Archer, does the Kin/Arch FS + RoA outweigh the standard Blaster Arch/EM combo of Boost Range + BU + Aim + RoA? The former appealed to my sense of "this might be a neat trick" though I'm curious as to if it withers mobs with the same facility as the blaster version.

Anyone who's tried both? Thoughts?

Assuming the powers have the same power damage scale (which I didn't check), you get the following...

Defender capped by FS
AT ranged damage scale: 0.65
AT damage boost cap: 500% = 4x
Total damage scale = 0.65 * 4 = 2.6

Blaster with Aim+BU and 100% damage enhancement
AT ranged damage scale: 1.125
AT Aim boost = 62.5%
AT Build Up Boost = 100%
Total damage scale = (1+100%+62.5%+100%) * 1.125 = 4.078125

So no, the blaster comes out well ahead, doing about 157% as much damage with the same power if the power has the same scale on both ATs. The blaster also has a higher damage boost cap of 500%, meaning that if the Blaster was damage capped (say, by Fulcrum Shift), they would do 1.125/0.65 * 5/4 = 2.16x as much damage as the Defender.

Thanks! Your effort is greatly appreciated. Now, just to determine if the "coolness" factor of melee-range RoA outweighs the raw crunch factor that the Blaster has going for it.

UberGuy- I have two points of dubiosity. (Not disproofs, but points that MAY be wrong.)

1) At one point I heard Defender "Pet" powers (Rain of Arrows, Blizzard) were spawning the same pet as the equivalent Blaster powers, so a Defender might be doing MORE damage than a Blaster with them.

2) I'm pretty sure that Defenders still have a 400% (or +300% if you like) damage cap. Blasters definitely cap at 500% these days.

What the heck? I swear I posted a reply and the forums ate it...

Yeah, the 500% looks like a straight up typo. I didn't notice it when I went back and corrected the Defender damage scale.

I rather forgot about RoA being a pet power. (Do we know if it's a pet for other than visual purposes? It seems strange to me that it's actually a "rain" given how it delivers its damage.) It seems very likely it does cap at 400% just like the Defender. That invalidates my add-on calculation for the case where the Blaster is damage capped, but not the Aim+BU one, since those and enhancements don't exceed +300%.

I thought the power did just recently get AT appropriate base damage scales. I remember discussion on the Corruptor boards because it's not got the expected damage for that AT.

Ive just entered RoA on Mid's for both defender and blaster. The figures that came out were:

Defender - with full Fulcrum Shift, full Siphon Power and Aim (it goes over the cap I know) comes to 731.5 (base: 146.3)
Blaster - with Aim and Build Up comes to 814.4 (base: 225.2)

Both were triple slotted damage (lvl 50 IOs)

Mid's may be wrong but looks like UberGuy is right about Blasters doing more damage and like he says Blasters can go up further because they're not at the damage cap.

Still 731.5 damage from a defender isn't anything to sniffed at particularly you can do it every 30 seconds without the endurance crash!

Edit - and I've just checked in game and the base for Defender RoA matches what Mid's says

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger Quote: 16. Has Paragon Studios redefined "player" to require your mouse to subscribe separately from your keyboard? If your mouse has greater processing power than your gfx card, the answer is yes.

I've said many many times, and honestly belive, that kinetics is a better controller secondary then it is a defender primary, or even a corruptor secondary. Controllers IMO make the best Kins. (I have a Gravity/Kin, Kin/Psy, and a Rad/Kin, all lvl 50's. I'd like to think i have some expearince with the powerset. heh.)

Kins are all about damage and speed buffing, with a nice but unreliable heal that's melee ranged.. That makes playing them well kind of damgerous. To get the most out of them, you got to get in close. And outside of the nice, yet unrealable heal that forces you into melee range.. just the place you want to be when you NEED a heal.. lol.. is it's only real protection. There is repel i guess... but eh, it can knock your target you were wanting to heal of away.... So, IMO, mixing that play style with a primary that's built around hard and soft control, lessens the danager and allows for greater freedom to use your powers to greater effect.

The trade off, is, unless you roll the fire/kin/fire build, your prolly not as damaging as most defenders can be with a full buffed blasting secondary...(and that's a maybe. controler damage is hotly debated. Myself, my controllers are not build for damage, so i just don't see it..) but when i play a kin, i'm normally in team support mode, so i'm more concerned with how much damage everyone else is doing then myself.