As I said for Death Scythe: hell yes! 
To avoid retreading all the arguments from the Death Scythe, I will simply say this - Spear, yes. Even with much the same design as you suggest. BLOOD spear, not so much. Hell, aside from the Build Up variant, the set could make a very decent pure weapon set, which I would much prefer. I don't even mind extending the -damage component to all damage types, not just lethal. The ATs you're likely going to give this to don't really have access to much of anything other than their primary damage source, which for the spear would be Lethal anyway, and if defence debuffs on sword-type weapons work for all types of followup attacks, I don't see why resistance debuffs can't work for all sorts of damage, as well.
And again to avoid retreading, let's say I talked about all the "finesses and continuous motion vs. start-and-stop strikes" and leave it at that.
Again - I'd like to see such a set, but I'd like to see it as a generic weapon.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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-res on a lethal weapon /and/ a pole arm?! How many ways can I say "Hell yeah!"? But can we make it -res (all) for the sake of teammates?
Click here to find all the All Things Art Threads!
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Pretty much just gonna echo what's been said here...I too would get behind the idea of a Spear/Polearm/Halberd/Staff set, but just not "Blood" Spear. However, if you could rename the set/powers and reimagine the descriptions to something more generic, it would be great.
Just explain the -Res as the Spear being good for piercing/damaging armor, that'll do.
(On that note, I'm now imagining a secondary defensive set focused around draining your opponent. Sorta like Kinetics, only it effects you alone and would probably be toned down.)
The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)
Virtue Forever.
Thanks for the replies RP, Sam, Azure and Aku.
Again, the reason I suggest the set as Blood spear is to differentiate it from being *just* a weapon set. If it were simply a spear, you're automatically limited in effects (-def, knock and/or combos). Adding an extra theme to it allows for a wider variety of effects and if the animations are adequate, it doesn't matter if it's Blood Spear or Banana Spear, it'll fit any concept of a character using a spear. You have to explain to me how the set cannot accommodate those concepts. If the set were just a spear, now you have to explain why the set has -res in it's attacks while other sets such as claws and dual blades pierce enemies yet don't. And why are weapons automatically limited to 'vanilla metal'? Energy can be sonics, radiation, electricity or kinetic energy, the primary difference in those sets are their secondary effects and they fit wide varieties of concepts (my Rad/Elec blaster is throwing water and the -def effect is a 'Super Effective' advantage of hitting them with electricity while they're soaked).
As for the -res extending to all: if it's balanced then let it be done! But I suggested it as -res to lethal primarily for balance and secondarily for concept. I wanted the secondary effect to be substantial enough to make a noticeable difference in performance. If it comes to sacrificing half of the effect to extend it to all damage types, I'd rather it just stay lethal. At least a spear user can be a noticeable force multiplier for other weapon users including himself.
Concept-wise, you're making the foe a bloody mess. You cut and stab to make him bleed out and doing that will ultimately cause more blood and damage the longer they fight. Getting smashed with a blunt blow is more about contusions and internal bruising/bleeding and fire, cold, negative energy, psi, etc don't really cause the foe to bleed like shooting or stabbing. You're ultimately in it for the blood and it makes you stronger. But if -res to all isn't out of balance (without being tweaked lower than the values I put up (and I aimed low too)) then go for it.
The animations I really didn't dwell on but a fluid attack sequence would only enhance the set further so if it can be done then make it so!
And again we who LIKE the damned weapon sets say "Screw that, we don't WANT our weapons to be labeled as something beyond what they are."
Telling us to use our RPness to take away the spin.. uh... I'd rather use my RPness to give a spin, and not HAVE a spin on it.
Even the 'specific' power sets don't have a "spin" to them. Energy Melee, Dark Melee, etc. The only spin is "you manipulate X to use it as a weapon." there is no how/why defined.
It's should be the exact same way with weapon sets. A weapon set should be "You use X weapon" anything "special" about it is entirely up to the player.
Also:
Spear: yes.
Naginata: Maybe.
Halberd: Possibly.
Quarterstaff: No. Never. Absolutely not.
The quarterstaff is a fluid weapon of extremely high speed -bludgeoning- impacts, coming from both ends of the staff, as well as a high degree of defensive capability. Certain styles do focus on using it as a reach weapon, however even those are not all that close to spear combat.
If they put quarterstaves in to the game, they are doing it right. They are not tying them to the same set as spears.
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Cool, then you can use your RPness to give the set a spin on why it has -res rather than it not having it at all.| Telling us to use our RPness to take away the spin.. uh... I'd rather use my RPness to give a spin, and not HAVE a spin on it. |
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| Even the 'specific' power sets don't have a "spin" to them. Energy Melee, Dark Melee, etc. The only spin is "you manipulate X to use it as a weapon." there is no how/why defined. |
Smite description: You wrap your fist with negative energy from the Netherworlds then perform a smite...
Dark Consumption description: The dark power of the Netherworld allows you to tap the essence of your foe's soul and transfer it to yourself...
Really, the descriptors are only there to give you a jist of what the power is doing. It's not there to define the power for you. No different with my suggestion. Like in the overall set descriptor (you did read that, right?) it could be the weapon actually craving blood or it could just be your own mind/thoughts egging you on to splatter the floors red.
The reason I ask if you read the set descriptor is because I specifically stated that a staff would *not* be included as a possible weapon customization. Pretty much any polearm *excluding* staff.
[EDIT] PS: reading back on the power descriptors I wrote, to say they're too specific in concept is kinda...weird, don't you think? The only one's that are actually specific are Blood Sacrifice and Vampiric Thrust. The other ones equate to "you're stabbing something with a sharp thing and they bleed". Really? *Honestly*!? That isn't generic enough?
make the set fast and with lower end cost like claws and i would def give this set a shot =)
oh and make it workable with shield, so make it one handed spear or ill be angry =P
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I've been over this particular detail in other threads, specifically back when I made the "elements of CoH" thread which discussed just that. What I came out understanding that that there really is no one uniform descriptor of what a weapon does in terms of secondary effect. Yes, both Broadsword and Katana do -def, but that has a lot more to do with their being THE SAME SET TWICE OVER than with any sword-wise convention. Granted, Assault Rifle does -def as well, for reasons I cannot understand, but... That's about it. Battle Axe - a bladed weapon - does knockback, so just cutting isn't necessarily synonymous with -def. Heck, "weapon" isn't synonymous with -def, as War Mace does stun and Archery, to the best of my knowledge, does nothing at all. Granted, Archery's special thing isn't what it DOES so much as HOW it does it, as all Archery attacks have a 15.5% extra innate accuracy. That is a LOT.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
If the set were just a spear, now you have to explain why the set has -res in it's attacks while other sets such as claws and dual blades pierce enemies yet don't.
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Even sticking to just swords, though, not even all swords do -def. Dual Blades, for instance, do nothing at all as a secondary effect, other than set up combos. And while, yes, Dual Blades DO have the Weaken combo which does -def (and -tohit), it also has three other combos, one that does +damage, one that does extra damage, and one that does extra damage and knockback. Also, I checked Claws, and only ONE power in the set does -def from what I can tell, that power being Slash. Add to that Spines, which aren't exactly a weapon per se, but are still a slashing attack set. Their secondary effect is toxic DoT.
Really, just a small subset of weapon sets do -def in any consistent way, that being the Broadsword/Katana clones and Assault Rifle, and even those don't do -def on every attack. In fact, the only attack Assault Rifle does -def on is Burst. Slug and Buckshot are knockback, Sniper Rifle is a snipe, both Flamethrower and Ignite are fire attacks and Full Auto does critical hits. In light of all this, I don't see why you can't just slap a -res secondary effect on "just a spear" and go with it. After all, if a sword slash can make you easier to hit after the fact, why can't a halberd swipe make you more susceptible to harm for a short while? Given how abstract the concepts of defence and damage resistance are, I don't see why not. I might not make perfect sense, but then we can cause illusionary damage to DOORS and cause crates to bleed, so I wouldn't say it's THAT far put of left field to give general -res to a Spear set.
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| And why are weapons automatically limited to 'vanilla metal'? Energy can be sonics, radiation, electricity or kinetic energy, the primary difference in those sets are their secondary effects and they fit wide varieties of concepts (my Rad/Elec blaster is throwing water and the -def effect is a 'Super Effective' advantage of hitting them with electricity while they're soaked). |
As far as I'm concerned, giving us an assortment of elemental weapons for the non-elemental sets, at the very least so we can match them to the elemental shields, would be a good move. So, I don't have an argument to counter your notion above. I agree with you.
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| As for the -res extending to all: if it's balanced then let it be done! But I suggested it as -res to lethal primarily for balance and secondarily for concept. I wanted the secondary effect to be substantial enough to make a noticeable difference in performance. If it comes to sacrificing half of the effect to extend it to all damage types, I'd rather it just stay lethal. At least a spear user can be a noticeable force multiplier for other weapon users including himself. |
With this in mind, I don't see why broad-range -res would be that unbalanced. Unless you're looking for -res to be incredibly high, which I actually wouldn't support just on its face, I would fully support it being -res to everything, not just Lethal. And, mind you, even if we were worried about balance, a LOT of attack sets in the game deal lethal damage or have a lethal damage component, so even just that isn't TOO much of a balancing factor. I'd go with broad-range -res just so that it teams a little better.
Just in closing: Only one family of sets, to the best of my knowledge, is actually conceptually loaded, that being the Dark family. Dark Melee, Dark Armour, Dark Blast and Dark Miasma are all very heavily implied to deal with energies from the Netherworld, which is quite strongly implied to be some sort of afterlife/hell/spirit realm, and as such has heavy magic implications. Beyond Dark, though, everything else is an element, and has only properties inherent in that element, not inherent in the style with which it is being applied. Fire is heat and burning, not hatred and destruction, cold is slowness and chill, not loneliness and desolation and energy is concussive force and "generic energy," not the power cosmic or arcane energies. As such, a set which has you "out for blood" is a little more specific than just a spear needs to be. There's nothing stopping you from making the set violent and aggressive, and as much as I dislike it, even bloody and gory, but I'd stop just shy of making it malicious, feeding on blood or lapsing into frenzies. In fact, I never saw Rage as natural power in Super Strength. Not everyone who is super strong takes after the Incredible Hulk.
In short, make it a bloodY spear, just not a blood spear.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Talsorian tech doesn't work that way. If the energy was released in a manner to cause energy damage it wouldn't retain it's shape to do lethal damage....the bow was just a silly tech demo gone too far (unless the new PC technique allows them to change arrows based on bow cause glowing arrows would be awesome). This is also why we have no mace option, the energy field is great for making an edge, the shield was a nice attempt but it would be hard to not damage to projectors while smashing them into things.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
IFurthermore, we already have pure energy weapons in the face of Vanguard's Talsorian arsenal, yet no-one ever complained that those deal only Lethal damage when they're clearly energy blades.
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In other words, technobable. And I say this with the utmost respect |
Originally Posted by Mr. NoPants
Talsorian tech doesn't work that way. If the energy was released in a manner to cause energy damage it wouldn't retain it's shape to do lethal damage....the bow was just a silly tech demo gone too far (unless the new PC technique allows them to change arrows based on bow cause glowing arrows would be awesome). This is also why we have no mace option, the energy field is great for making an edge, the shield was a nice attempt but it would be hard to not damage to projectors while smashing them into things.
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I still stand by my statement, though - I want to see elemental options for the regular weapons.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Does any other damage set have any -res powers?
If I'm not completely mistaken, -res seems to be firmly tied to the category of debuff sets, and for good reason, I'd like to think. Giving even just half the set sounds like it might potentially break the balance and would let your suggestion outperform every other melee set while they're still in the early levels all through to the end-game.
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Sonic Attack, a blast damage primary, has resistance debuffs on a lot of its attacks. In fact, each Sonic attack, other than Shockwave (which does knockback) and Siren's Song (which does sleep) has a 13% resistance debuff for 10 seconds, ON TOP OF giving Defiance damage buffs. In fact, just off the list, Shout is a 17.6% damage buff with a 13% damage debuff, all on the same power. I haven't heard anyone complaining that Sonic Attack is badly overpowered, and I don't think that's because it lacks a snipe.|
Originally Posted by Noxilicious
Does any other damage set have any -res powers?
If I'm not completely mistaken, -res seems to be firmly tied to the category of debuff sets, and for good reason, I'd like to think. Giving even just half the set sounds like it might potentially break the balance and would let your suggestion outperform every other melee set while they're still in the early levels all through to the end-game. |
Really, why does everyone think resistance debuffs are so overpowered? The things against which resistance debuffs really matter (e.i. AVs) resist them, and for the rest, the effects aren't that profound. In fact, I don't see why this spear/halberd set can't be billed as armour-piercing as its special property, demolishing the resistance of enemies as you beat on them.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Granted, and I'll concede to your point. It makes sense but I'm still of the opinion that that isn't good enough an explanation. The lethal weapon sets include Katana/Broadsword/Ninja Blade, Dual Blades, Spines, Claws, Battle Axe, Archery, Assault Rifle, Thorns and Pistols (I think that's it). The ones incapable of -def are Spines (but it's currently borked, according to Castle. I'd bet eventually, the set will look like Thorns), Battle Axe, Archery and Pistols.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
In light of all this, I don't see why you can't just slap a -res secondary effect on "just a spear" and go with it. After all, if a sword slash can make you easier to hit after the fact, why can't a halberd swipe make you more susceptible to harm for a short while? Given how abstract the concepts of defence and damage resistance are, I don't see why not. I might not make perfect sense, but then we can cause illusionary damage to DOORS and cause crates to bleed, so I wouldn't say it's THAT far put of left field to give general -res to a Spear set.
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Kat/BS/NB probably have the concept of being accurate weapons as they have an innate accuracy bonus ontop of lowering defense. DB actually has -def in Ablating Strike as well as the weaken combo. Claws has Slash and Brute Claws has Eviscerate. You explained Assault Rifle and Thorns has a brokingly amount of -def in it. IMO, it's not so much you need to explain why the other sets don't have -def but explain why they do things other than -def. My Axe/WP brute has the concept that his weapon has a special innate ability to one-hit kill a foe if engaged in a fight where he gets in the first hit, if not he'll pound on them with his big hunk of metal. Basically, his attacks are so strong, he knocks his enemies around with his heavy weapon. No need to explain why he doesn't do -def.
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| With this in mind, I don't see why broad-range -res would be that unbalanced. Unless you're looking for -res to be incredibly high, which I actually wouldn't support just on its face, I would fully support it being -res to everything, not just Lethal. And, mind you, even if we were worried about balance, a LOT of attack sets in the game deal lethal damage or have a lethal damage component, so even just that isn't TOO much of a balancing factor. I'd go with broad-range -res just so that it teams a little better. |
Also, while a lot of sets in the game deal lethal damage or have a component of lethal damage, remember that many foes also resist lethal damage and therefore will resist -res effects that target lethal damage.
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| Just in closing: Only one family of sets, to the best of my knowledge, is actually conceptually loaded, that being the Dark family. Dark Melee, Dark Armour, Dark Blast and Dark Miasma are all very heavily implied to deal with energies from the Netherworld, which is quite strongly implied to be some sort of afterlife/hell/spirit realm, and as such has heavy magic implications. |
I guess you could say the set I suggest does the same thing but the secondary effect isn't combos, it's -res. The combos basically are there to give you AoE attacks but you don't need AoE attacks to fulfill the set's secondary effects.
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| Beyond Dark, though, everything else is an element, and has only properties inherent in that element, not inherent in the style with which it is being applied. Fire is heat and burning, not hatred and destruction, cold is slowness and chill, not loneliness and desolation and energy is concussive force and "generic energy," not the power cosmic or arcane energies. As such, a set which has you "out for blood" is a little more specific than just a spear needs to be. |
I stand by calling it Blood Spear because, aesthetically and from a design standpoint, it just sounds more serious and sells the -res effect as being related to bleeding the foe out. The fact that, as a polearm, you can piece foes easier, that concept is covered by the pierce through combo (you can stab your target *and* any poor schmoes in between). I can agree to toning down and/or renaming Blood Sacrifice and Vampiric Thrust. Perhaps Blood Sacrifice > Blood Rage (if SS can do it...) and Vampiric Thrust > (something with the word Carnage, Guts, Gore or some such).
From a design stance, Blood Spear can have interesting theme names where if it were just spear you'd be looking at Stab, Thrust, Upward Stab, Multi-Thrust, etc. Hey, I love claws myself but the names of claws are absolutely forgetable. I can't tell the difference between Swipe, Strike and Slash unless I see the animation >_> But I love Katana's names. My RP character even named specific katana techniques with the actual set's power names in mind and he shouts them (anime style) when he uses them.
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But Claws, Dual Blades and Assault Rifle only have one attack that does -defence. That's like saying shields inherently lower enemy outgoing damage because Against All Odds has -damage in it, or that Willpower is based around regeneration because it has one power which grants extra regeneration. I don't see weapon sets as inherently doing -def. It doesn't make sense realistically speaking (because "defence" means two completely unrelated things in this game), and I don't really see it as being mechanically-dictated the same way as cold attacks are associated with slows. Really, Broadsword, Katana and Ninja Blade are the same powerset. You shouldn't count them as three separate powersets, as they're all clones of the same thing. Over the years they've been made more different from each other, but the basic structure of the powersets is the same.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Granted, and I'll concede to your point. It makes sense but I'm still of the opinion that that isn't good enough an explanation. The lethal weapon sets include Katana/Broadsword/Ninja Blade, Dual Blades, Spines, Claws, Battle Axe, Archery, Assault Rifle, Thorns and Pistols (I think that's it). The ones incapable of -def are Spines (but it's currently borked, according to Castle. I'd bet eventually, the set will look like Thorns), Battle Axe, Archery and Pistols.
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Technically, I'd say Dual Blades seem to have a conceptual spin on it. It's a fast, elegant multi-strike set that require you to string together attacks to execute its additional effect. I say technically because the mechanics of its secondary effect is directly linked to that. I guess you could say the set I suggest does the same thing but the secondary effect isn't combos, it's -res. The combos basically are there to give you AoE attacks but you don't need AoE attacks to fulfill the set's secondary effects. |
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I dunno...if you're running around stabbing people with an over-sized poker in a realm where you could just as easily pick up a gun and get the same job done, you must have some motive to bleed the foe to death
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Either way, the point is that in the world of City of Heroes, melee weapons and short-range powers are often significantly more deadly than ranged weapons and long-range powers. An unbreakable, super-sharp sword in the hands of someone super strong and super fast is deadlier than a gun in the hands of a common thug. In fact, that's a running problem I have with my namesake character - he can see and move faster than bullets, which makes enemy accuracy irrelevant, and there really isn't a good way to make bullets fly faster because they're limited by the gun. The hands and feet of a super martial artist, on the other hand, can move as fast as he can make them, thus lifting that particular restriction.
It's all technobabble in the end, of course, but in our world, swords beat guns. So, picking a spear instead of a run-of-the-mill gun is actually pretty smart, if using it is your super power. After all, the only way to beat a super spear is to have a super gun, and you can't really have a super gun unless you make it yourself, which then requires super intelligence to produce, which not every fighter has.
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| From a design stance, Blood Spear can have interesting theme names where if it were just spear you'd be looking at Stab, Thrust, Upward Stab, Multi-Thrust, etc. Hey, I love claws myself but the names of claws are absolutely forgetable. I can't tell the difference between Swipe, Strike and Slash unless I see the animation >_> But I love Katana's names. My RP character even named specific katana techniques with the actual set's power names in mind and he shouts them (anime style) when he uses them. |
Realistically speaking, I hate fancy names. In the span of a couple of months, I was able to learn all the Broadsword names by heart such that I could quote them from memory. And yet five years after the update to Katana which gave it new, fancier names, I STILL don't remember them very well, and mind you my namesake character and first creation uses Katana to this day. I still don't remember if Gabler's Cut was the equivalent for Slash or Hack, and I don't remember what the other one was called. As well, quoting all of these STUPID names, like Divine Avalange or Golden Dragonfly, or Sting of the Wasp (right, THAT'S what the other one was called!) just makes me feel silly. Things like Hack, Slash, Slice and Parry may sound mundane, but they're pragmatic enough to be useful as tools.
I don't shout my attacks as I fight, and I never considered that a good approach. Nor is it actually a good idea in dynamic combat. To this day I still have an echo in my head which shouts "Striker... Slam!" "Devil Spin Kick!" "Cannoball!" "Nucler Tackle!" and so on and so forth. It's just silly in practice. And, lastly, I like to see City of Heroes' combat as a dynamic choreography, not as your typical anime combat with combatants standing around, talking, and occasionally throwing out a very specific, patented attack. I prefer to think of combat as that which can be seen as something like Avatar: The Last Airbender - fast, continuous combat with attacks and defences as the situation demands, and with no attack (other than possibly "lightning") given a specific name.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Just to clear that up, I did put them with '/'s and not ','s to indicate they are related.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Really, Broadsword, Katana and Ninja Blade are the same powerset. You shouldn't count them as three separate powersets, as they're all clones of the same thing. Over the years they've been made more different from each other, but the basic structure of the powersets is the same.
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| But Claws, Dual Blades and Assault Rifle only have one attack that does -defence. That's like saying shields inherently lower enemy outgoing damage because Against All Odds has -damage in it, or that Willpower is based around regeneration because it has one power which grants extra regeneration. I don't see weapon sets as inherently doing -def. It doesn't make sense realistically speaking (because "defence" means two completely unrelated things in this game), and I don't really see it as being mechanically-dictated the same way as cold attacks are associated with slows. |
-def isn't synonymous with weapons. It's synonymous with piercing. That's the thing. -def is mechanically piercing/bypassing armor. Radiation blast has the secondary effect of -def because it is an energy wave that can travel through solid objects with exception to material specifically designed to insulate the specific radiation. As for defense equaling evasion, it's basically being harder to dodge when you're cut up. To physically move out of the way, you have to be in good condition to move to your fullest range of motion. SR has +res in its passives as it loses HP because, as you take more damage and it gets tougher to keep going because you're beat up, you roll with the punches, softening the blows that do land by moving with the attack rather than standing your ground. So resistance isn't just being invulnerable either.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is, simply using the mechanics of the game, a spear set should *just* do -def. Because if the set is 'good at piercing the enemy' then that's -def. How do you explain it lowering the foe's resistance? How do you explain that other piercing weapons do not lower resistance.
My explanation? You're focusing on bleeding the foe. Simple as that.
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| I don't mind you giving it a feel and a style that fits your idea, but again, I would stop just shy of making the weapon magical or alive. I literally CANNOT accept that. Put the power in the player, give the techniques to the player, let the player decide what this brutality and gore means. Do NOT decide for them. To my eyes, a "Blood Spear" would be on the same level as if we had a "Magic Broadsword" powerset or, even worse, a "Griswold's Edge" powerset. People keep asking for more "natural" powersets. Let's not take one of the few possible new sets with a potential for being natural by making it supernatural. |
But it's not and it isn't and I didn't. Just like you can pretend your broadsword is magical or technological, you can pretend the spear is natural or scientifical etc *with the concept in tact*. Explain to me how you *can't* or stop repeating yourself
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| One would wonder why conventional kinetic rounds couldn't do the same, but maybe in the world of Star Wars people just haven't invented gunpowder. |
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| It's all technobabble in the end, of course, but in our world, swords beat guns. So, picking a spear instead of a run-of-the-mill gun is actually pretty smart, if using it is your super power. After all, the only way to beat a super spear is to have a super gun, and you can't really have a super gun unless you make it yourself, which then requires super intelligence to produce, which not every fighter has. |
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| Realistically speaking, I hate fancy names. |
I guess we're done here. But just like was said in the "Good Character names are hard to come by" thread, simple generic 'easy' names are limited. Once a power name like 'Stab' and 'Thrust' are gone, adding descriptors is direction you must take. And apparently, people think descriptive names are 'better' in the long run. They sound cooler and are easier to abbreviate (you have to spell out Swipe, Strike, Focus, etc when talking about claws attacks but when speaking of Katana you can say GC, SotW, DA, GD, SD, LD, FS (I just put up the entire katana set using the same amount of letters as 3 attacks in Claws!))
As a designer, you gotta sell something from all angles *including* the name. Katana does this because the names have a flavor that's in line with the set. Claws is generic (and that's all right) and has no flavor when it comes to the names. And when it comes down to what the names do (extra yet optional flavor), why not give colorful names? Because you can't be bothered with it interfering with your extremely tight expectations for concepts?
Sorry if I sound angry but I am. It's like spitting on someone because they're different or not conforming to your ideals. It's annoying.
That is to say, I'm not strongly backing the names and concepts I'm presenting. I'm strongly backing flavor. Flavor is *good* and you have the option to ignore it if you don't like it. I'd rather have something there to use or ignore instead of it being so generic it's not worth the effort to use or ignore.
[Has yet to read any of the replies]
This power set strikes me as being just... Evil, and not in the good way. I don't think the developers would want to make a very inclusive 'Spear' powerset, and then modify it so that the only people who feel conceptually 'right' using it are tribalist Shamans and so forth.
/Yes to a spear.
/No to a spear with attacks like 'Red Sky'.
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You know, if that's what your approach is going to be, then I want out. You posted this here, I assumed you were looking for opinions, and this is mine. You don't have to like it, but if you start insinuating that I'm "spitting" on you, then I take offence. I came in to discuss this because the discussion was interesting, not to step on you or bring you down. These are my views on what I like and what I want to see. If you can't accept me having them so much that me saying "I don't like" insults you, then I don't want any further part in this.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Sorry if I sound angry but I am. It's like spitting on someone because they're different or not conforming to your ideals. It's annoying.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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To keep pressing an opinion is an entirely different thing though. I've read other posters' opinion on the thread. They made suggestions and stated how they feel about it. That's fine. I even agreed to nearly every alteration, *including* changing some of the names and descriptors.
Now pretty much everyone has said "I don't know about 'Blood' spear as a concept" or some variance. That's cool. But I follow up with 'why' I followed such a theme and what the concept entails. I'm not enforcing it, I'm explaining it. What do I get in return?
"No, that's wrong."
That's pretty much it. No 'why' it's wrong or 'how' it's wrong. Whatever. It's just a fun idea, is all. Like I said, we're pretty much done here. From what I've gathered, the suggested set could work but a re-imagining of the theme is needed.
But my beef is also a carryover from the other set. You expressed a dislike for the theme I made for the death scythe set and it was understandable as the powers really alluded to that theme. But here, you're basically pressing that opinion but it's purely an aesthetic issue. They're just names and descriptors. They don't define the power, the effects and players do. Are they *bad* names? Do they not describe what the power does well enough? Is it stepping out of some sort of bounds that Headsplitter isn't?
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I actually liked that name the best| /No to a spear with attacks like 'Red Sky' |
I mean, it ends a combo where you're poking a mass of enemies into the air with a *spear*. There's bound to be at least a little blood somewhere.
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"Why" is pretty much everything I've been saying. One long explanation as to why I feel the way I do. I gave you plenty of examples, I explained it multiple times, and "spitting" on you is all you chose to take away from it. I can't say I didn't try.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
"No, that's wrong."
That's pretty much it. No 'why' it's wrong or 'how' it's wrong. Whatever. It's just a fun idea, is all. Like I said, we're pretty much done here. From what I've gathered, the suggested set could work but a re-imagining of the theme is needed. |
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| But my beef is also a carryover from the other set. You expressed a dislike for the theme I made for the death scythe set and it was understandable as the powers really alluded to that theme. But here, you're basically pressing that opinion but it's purely an aesthetic issue. They're just names and descriptors. They don't define the power, the effects and players do. Are they *bad* names? Do they not describe what the power does well enough? Is it stepping out of some sort of bounds that Headsplitter isn't? |
Might I remind you that I stated, multiple times, no less, that the only power I actually have a real, tangible problem with is your Taunt/Build Up combo? Look at it:
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| The insatiable hunger for blood your weapon has can be temporarily warded off using your own blood. By sacrificing your own blood, you get the same benefit of your weapon defeating 3 foes for the maximum duration. The damage bonus only lasts as long as BU but the +rech and special foe defeat buffs last for 30 sec. |
Again (and again and again) I don't mind picking a theme, and even if I don't like your names of choice, I can deal with them. I hate the names of Katana, yet that hasn't stopped me from playing it. As long as you can keep the feel of the set while simultaneously not inferring there is a demon in my halberd, I'll be happy.
You make the call whether I'm "spitting" on you. And if you still feel that I am, just say so and you'll never hear from me again. That's a promise.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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You did catch the post of mine agreeing to tone down/change power names and descriptors, right?
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Yes, which is why I threw in the comment about complicated names as an offhand "I don't like" comment. And again, I LIKE your set, which is why this is so frustrating |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
You did catch the post of mine agreeing to tone down/change power names and descriptors, right?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I don't really consider most of the names that complicated though. The names that I'm attached to though, are Crimson Sky (what *other* name would a knockup spear attack have?), Iron Stitch and Rain of Spears.
On an aside, I don't believe anyone has yet explained why a spear would lower resistance...
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I love it where do I sign up??
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
In the same vein of 'for fun' as the Death Scythe set:
    Blood Spear Can a weapon be alive? Is the need of sustenance, even if it’s blood, be a characteristic of living? Maybe it’s not really the spear that craves blood. Maybe it’s all in your mind or maybe your blade really is provoking you to spill more blood. Not just exclusively spear, but any polearm weapon excluding staves. But Blood Polearm doesn't sound as good. Besides its innate longer range, this set has effects that become stronger upon defeating a foe and spilling its blood upon the blade. It also has 1 combo type that can be performed 3 different ways. Scrapper/Brute/Tanker: 1. Red Gash (ST 9ft rng, minor lethal dmg, foe –res vs lethal) A swift thrust with the spear that pierces the foe’s armor causing them to bleed out. 2. Blood Stroke (ST 9ft rng, minor lethal DoT, foe –res vs lethal) A slash, spin and thrust attack that will leave the enemy a bloody mess. 3. Crimson Sky (ST 9ft rng, moderate lethal dmg, foe knockup) A strong and elegant upward thrust that sends the foe flying through the air. 4&5. Blood Sacrifice/Taunt/Confront (Self +dmg, +ToHit, +rech, self neg energy dmg, -regen, *special*) The insatiable hunger for blood your weapon has can be temporarily warded off using your own blood. By sacrificing your own blood, you get the same benefit of your weapon defeating 3 foes for the maximum duration. The damage bonus only lasts as long as BU but the +rech and special ‘foe defeat’ buffs last for 30 sec. 6. Scarlet Pin (ST 9ft rng, moderate lethal dmg, mag 3 immobilize, -res vs lethal) Stab at the foe’s feet, impaling their feet to the floor as well as making them vulnerable to follow up attacks from your spear. 7. Iron Stitch (ST 9ft rng, high lethal dmg, mag 2 immobilize) A strong and heavy downward strike plus a thrust to keep the foe from moving while you impale them on your blade. 8. Vampiric Thrust (ST 12ft rng, superior lethal DoT, -res vs lethal) Thrust the foe violently and continuously with your hungry weapon to quench its thirst for blood. 9. Rain of Spears (self teleport, 15ft PBAoE, superior lethal dmg, foe knockdown, mag 2 immobilize) Leap up and fall down with a strong spear attack that strikes all within range, pinning them to the ground for a time as well as putting them on the floor. Stalker: 1. Red Gash 2. Blood Stroke 3. Crimson Sky 4. Assassin’s Point 5. Blood Sacrifice 6. Placate 7. Iron Stitch (ST 12ft rng, moderate lethal dmg, mag 3 immobilize) 8. Vampiric Thrust (ST 15ft rng, high lethal DoT, -res vs lethal) 9. Rain of Spears Blood Offering effect = for every foe you defeat with one of the Blood Spear attacks, you get a 30 sec ‘Blood Offering’ buff that can stack 3 times. The Blood Offering effect adds a stacking effect for your 4 –res attacks. Similar to Domination stacking additional mez mag/duration, Blood Offering will multiply the –res effect by 1x the number of blood offerings on top of stacking with the other –res attacks. Blaster –res on sonic attacks are -13% to all with a duration that allows around 3-4 stacked effects. Blood Spear will be something in the realm of -5% to only lethal. With full blood offerings, it’d offer -20% res to lethal only with each attack with similarly long durations for 3-4 stacked effects. So that’s a possible 60-80% -res *if* you defeated 3 foes. With no or 1 foe, it’s 20-40% -res to lethal. Combos = Pierce Through (turns the last attack in the combo into a cone which damages and duplicates its secondary effect to all that it hits) Scrapper/Tanker/Brute combos -Red Gash > Scarlet Pin > Iron Stitch (end with a 9ft 45 degree cone that immobilizes) -Blood Stroke > Scarlet Pin > Crimson Sky (end with a 9ft 90 degree cone that knocks up) -Red Gash > Blood Stroke > Vampiric Thrust (ends with a 12ft 90 degree cone that does the most dmg of the combos and debuffs resistance to lethal) Stalker combos -Assassin’s Point > Red Gash > Iron Stitch (end with 12ft 45 degree cone that immobilizes) -Blood Stroke > Placate > Crimson Sky (ends with a 9ft 90 degree cone that knocks up with a 50% chance to AoE crit) -Red Gash > Blood Stroke > Vampiric Thrust (ends with a 15ft 90 degree cone that does the highest dmg of the combos and debuffs resistance to lethal) The set would be the king of cones, capable of striking out at a group of foes and keeping them lined up for the kill. It’s weak point is, for sets like Invulnerability and Willpower who need foes around them within 8ft, this set’s strength is at odds with that, capable of keeping foes away and striking at them outside that range. Any thoughts on how such a set would stack up against other melee sets? |
In the same vein of 'for fun' as the Death Scythe set:
Blood Spear
Can a weapon be alive? Is the need of sustenance, even if it’s blood, be a characteristic of living? Maybe it’s not really the spear that craves blood. Maybe it’s all in your mind or maybe your blade really is provoking you to spill more blood.
Not just exclusively spear, but any polearm weapon excluding staves. But Blood Polearm doesn't sound as good. Besides its innate longer range, this set has effects that become stronger upon defeating a foe and spilling its blood upon the blade. It also has 1 combo type that can be performed 3 different ways.
Scrapper/Brute/Tanker:
1. Red Gash (ST 9ft rng, minor lethal dmg, foe –res vs lethal)
A swift thrust with the spear that pierces the foe’s armor causing them to bleed out.
2. Blood Stroke (ST 9ft rng, minor lethal DoT, foe –res vs lethal)
A slash, spin and thrust attack that will leave the enemy a bloody mess.
3. Crimson Sky (ST 9ft rng, moderate lethal dmg, foe knockup)
A strong and elegant upward thrust that sends the foe flying through the air.
4&5. Blood Sacrifice/Taunt/Confront (Self +dmg, +ToHit, +rech, self neg energy dmg, -regen, *special*)
The insatiable hunger for blood your weapon has can be temporarily warded off using your own blood. By sacrificing your own blood, you get the same benefit of your weapon defeating 3 foes for the maximum duration. The damage bonus only lasts as long as BU but the +rech and special ‘foe defeat’ buffs last for 30 sec.
6. Scarlet Pin (ST 9ft rng, moderate lethal dmg, mag 3 immobilize, -res vs lethal)
Stab at the foe’s feet, impaling their feet to the floor as well as making them vulnerable to follow up attacks from your spear.
7. Iron Stitch (ST 9ft rng, high lethal dmg, mag 2 immobilize)
A strong and heavy downward strike plus a thrust to keep the foe from moving while you impale them on your blade.
8. Vampiric Thrust (ST 12ft rng, superior lethal DoT, -res vs lethal)
Thrust the foe violently and continuously with your hungry weapon to quench its thirst for blood.
9. Rain of Spears (self teleport, 15ft PBAoE, superior lethal dmg, foe knockdown, mag 2 immobilize)
Leap up and fall down with a strong spear attack that strikes all within range, pinning them to the ground for a time as well as putting them on the floor.
Stalker:
1. Red Gash
2. Blood Stroke
3. Crimson Sky
4. Assassin’s Point
5. Blood Sacrifice
6. Placate
7. Iron Stitch (ST 12ft rng, moderate lethal dmg, mag 3 immobilize)
8. Vampiric Thrust (ST 15ft rng, high lethal DoT, -res vs lethal)
9. Rain of Spears
Blood Offering effect = for every foe you defeat with one of the Blood Spear attacks, you get a 30 sec ‘Blood Offering’ buff that can stack 3 times. The Blood Offering effect adds a stacking effect for your 4 –res attacks. Similar to Domination stacking additional mez mag/duration, Blood Offering will multiply the –res effect by 1x the number of blood offerings on top of stacking with the other –res attacks.
Blaster –res on sonic attacks are -13% to all with a duration that allows around 3-4 stacked effects. Blood Spear will be something in the realm of -5% to only lethal. With full blood offerings, it’d offer -20% res to lethal only with each attack with similarly long durations for 3-4 stacked effects. So that’s a possible 60-80% -res *if* you defeated 3 foes. With no or 1 foe, it’s 20-40% -res to lethal.
Combos = Pierce Through (turns the last attack in the combo into a cone which damages and duplicates its secondary effect to all that it hits)
Scrapper/Tanker/Brute combos
-Red Gash > Scarlet Pin > Iron Stitch (end with a 9ft 45 degree cone that immobilizes)
-Blood Stroke > Scarlet Pin > Crimson Sky (end with a 9ft 90 degree cone that knocks up)
-Red Gash > Blood Stroke > Vampiric Thrust (ends with a 12ft 90 degree cone that does the most dmg of the combos and debuffs resistance to lethal)
Stalker combos
-Assassin’s Point > Red Gash > Iron Stitch (end with 12ft 45 degree cone that immobilizes)
-Blood Stroke > Placate > Crimson Sky (ends with a 9ft 90 degree cone that knocks up with a 50% chance to AoE crit)
-Red Gash > Blood Stroke > Vampiric Thrust (ends with a 15ft 90 degree cone that does the highest dmg of the combos and debuffs resistance to lethal)
The set would be the king of cones, capable of striking out at a group of foes and keeping them lined up for the kill. It’s weak point is, for sets like Invulnerability and Willpower who need foes around them within 8ft, this set’s strength is at odds with that, capable of keeping foes away and striking at them outside that range.
Any thoughts on how such a set would stack up against other melee sets?