The scrapper takes considerably more "work" to get soft-capped. The scrapper will still have considerably lower hitpoints. The tank's damage resistance will still be higher. The scrapper's survivability will not be comparable to the tank's even when both are softcapped.
Will the scrapper's vastly superior damage output outweigh the tanks superior mitigation? It will depend on how you play. Plan to solo all the time? Go with the scrapper. Wish to take care of a team while dishing out good aoe damage? Go tank.
Be well, people of CoH.
Bill Z Bubba is right; if you plan on soloing only the scrap build would be the viable option. If you want to hold aggro and lead/care for your team, then the tank build is the way to go. A scrap's defense will never compare to the tank's, as a tank's damage output will never compare to the scrap's.
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There's no one who can convince you one way or another: it's all about what you want to do with the character and your playstyle. Bill hit it on the head: it depends on a) how far you want to take your build, b) how often you team, and c) what role you want to take on the team (if you team).|
Originally Posted by North_Woods
According to some patch notes on test, shield charge is now going to be affected by damage multipliers that give it a small damage boost on tanks and a large damage boost on scrappers.
Now that the damage gap is even farther apart between a shield tanker vs. a shield scrapper, why would you ever make a shield/elec tank over an elec/shield scrapper? Also, I'm pretty sure its possible to softcap a shield scrapper with just a little more work than it would take to softcap a tanker. So aside from the HP difference, the scrapper is going to have the same survivability as the tank right? This is not a troll for tank lovers. I honestly want to make a tanker, but its hard when the damage potential an elec/shield scrapper has is staring me in the face. Convince on why I should not reroll my level 15 shield/elec tanker into an elec/shield scrapper. |
If you have the resources to soft-cap the Scrapper (which is significantly more work, but certainly possible), and either don't team a lot or don't care to be primary aggro control, then you're not losing out going Scrapper.
If you want the extra durability behind the soft-cap and like to tank for teams, the Scrapper is a "sometimes enough" as opposed to the Tanker's "no worries." Greater safety and situational control traded for Tanker level damage.
And really, either one can solo plenty fast (my Shield/SS Tanker felt quicker than my WP/DB solo, and my WP was no slouch). If you ONLY want to solo, a Scrapper is better, but if you want to be able to take damage for a team, that's when you Tank.
Scrappers are quite fun, but they're a different approach to the game than Tanking. Decide which approach you want to take, and go from there. Elec and Shield are fun for both.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
I'm having the same problem right now and even after reading these very convincing statements...I still have no clue! I mainly play Scrappers but I've been wanting to branch out more lately.
I made the Tank version last night...I guess we'll see how it goes...
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I see tankers and scrappers (brutes as well) as part of a continuum of play styles. I do tend to lean towards the tanker side of the bar rather than the scrapper side. Tankers bring more to the table than most scrappers do, and as such contribute more to teams. And it seems to me to be easier to add steady state damage to tankers than it is to add survivability to most scrappers.|
Originally Posted by North_Woods
Now that the damage gap is even farther apart between a shield tanker vs. a shield scrapper, why would you ever make a shield/elec tank over an elec/shield scrapper?
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I have scrappers and brutes that are capable of tanking, and have tanked high level task forces, at least as far as the ITF, Reichsman, and LRSF. My Spines/WP scrapper is designated as my tanking scrapper, and is slotted for debuff and control as well as damage. (-speed and -recharge) My Dark Melee/WP brute is my tanking brute; she has Taunt. All of these builds sacrifice some damage for survivability.
I have another scrapper (dark melee/reflexes) that is plenty tough, but has no aggro or control abilities. I have a variety of regen scrappers built as pure DPS. I don't enjoy these characters nearly as much as my tanking scrappers and brutes, though. My favorite regen scrapper is fire/regen, which is good -- this is the scrapper I use to kill Arachnos with in RV -- but not nearly as fun for me as the spines/WP.
On the other hand, I am greatly enjoying a Shields/Electric Melee tanker. This tanker will be tougher than my Reflexes scrapper, and just as easy to put at the defense cap; and this character is close to the spines/WP tanker in efficiency and will be even tougher - defense equal to the reflex scrapper plus more hit points and resistance. The Shields/Electric tanker is like a tanker with a blaster nuke, and it's going to get better.
Avoiding frustration for me is key. A character that ends up defeated a lot is a character I will lose interest in very quickly. Tankers, by design, will be less frustrating as soon as you solve their endurance problem and get them some slots for damage.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
I think you almost had the question right. A Shield scrapper VS a Shield Brute, now you have to ask the question why a Scapper rather than a Brute once we go rogue?
If this "bonus damage" is out of proportion for a Tanker compared to a Scrapper, say it's like 10% of the damage Scrapper does, then yeah, I'd be worried about that. But asking whether the "gap getting bigger" between Tankers and Scrappers bothers me, well, no, it doesn't. That "gap" is part of being a Tanker. The more damage a set does the more damage it does to a Scrapper, just because of the proportions. A Fire/Fire Scrapper is going to have a way larger "gap" than the average Scrapper, because Fire/Fire does so much more damage, period.
The opposite is also true, though. A Stone Tanker will have a much larger "gap" between what his Granite Armor is capable of compared to a theoretical Stone Scrapper. Or even a Stone Brute. However tough a Brute in Granite Armor is (and they're pretty tough...) that's still only 75% of a Tanker in Granite Armor.
(Of course, now I've read the patch notes and note that the Scrapper version was NOT doing the damage proportional to the Scrapper's damage modifier, and so the "bonus damage" is the difference between a Scrapper's damage and a Brute's. Just like Tankers got the additional damage they should get compared to a Brute)
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Scrappers have higher damage and damage buff mods, so AAO makes a larger impact on their damage output than it does for a Brute. Further, there is a patch on test which increases the damage of Tanker (minor) and Scrapper (+50%) Shield Charge. Keep in mind it has a +400% dmg cap for all of them, still, so Brutes really get shortchanged with SC. (A Scrapper using BU +SC does more damage than Brute SC at the +400% pet damage cap.)
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Originally Posted by taekoUSA
I think you almost had the question right. A Shield scrapper VS a Shield Brute, now you have to ask the question why a Scapper rather than a Brute once we go rogue?
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It would be way worse if Brutes did not get Fury on pseudo-pets at all, though...|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Keep in mind [Shield Charge] has a +400% dmg cap for all of them, still, so Brutes really get shortchanged with SC. (A Scrapper using BU +SC does more damage than Brute SC at the +400% pet damage cap.)
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I suppose the damage could be boosted somewhat so Brutes would be somewhere in the midrange of their damage cap. Boost it too much, though, and SC will do too much damage before the Brute builds Fury. It would probably be easier to come up with a way to give Brute pets a higher damage cap. (Maybe double the damage, and then give the pet a -100% damage debuff? No, scrap that, that would quadruple damage at 300% Fury, and at 400% Fury the damage would be 6x.
If we could somehow make the target 50% resistant to the damage it would work, though)
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In my case, when I make a tank, I generally don't care very much about damage output. My invuln/EM has neither Build Up nor Energy Transfer. In fact, I don't have ANY tank with Build Up. If damage output was a concern, I'd go with a scrapper right from the start.
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Originally Posted by North_Woods
Now that the damage gap is even farther apart between a shield tanker vs. a shield scrapper, why would you ever make a shield/elec tank over an elec/shield scrapper?
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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Correct.| So aside from the HP difference, the scrapper is going to have the same survivability as the tank right? |
It's also worth mentioning apart for the damage mod and damage buff mod difference, the tanker is going to have the exact same damage output as the scrapper.
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Note quite. In addition to having less HP than a Tanker, a Scrapper also has 25% less defense. If you soft cap Defense, the Scrapper will have the same Defense as the Tanker. However, the Resistances, healing capabilities and I think Defense Debuff Resistance will be higher. (Actually, no, that's the same, but Tankers do get higher status protection)|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
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It's also worth mentioning apart for the damage mod and damage buff mod difference, the tanker is going to have the exact same damage output as the scrapper. |
So I think the original quote should have been:
"So aside from the HP difference, the greater Resistances, and assuming that I am at the Defense cap and not being debuffed by a foe, the Shield Scrapper is going to have the same survivability as the Shield Tank, right?"
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I'm shocked you of all people would agree to that, Nihilii. Afterall, I've watched your Shield/DM videos, and I know you have used OwtS in the past. Tankers can hit 90% s/l res with it up (Deflection + Tough + OtwS), compared to Scrappers with ~70%. The Tanker is taking 1/3 damage the damage of a Scrapper while having more hp. Under those circumstances, the Tanker is somewhere in the ballpark of 4 times more survivable. Is that situational? Absolutely, but it's there.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
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(I swear in the past you've said your tank was an order of magnitude tougher than your scrapper, but that may have been Shield vs Invuln or something.)
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
It's also worth mentioning apart for the damage mod and damage buff mod difference, the tanker is going to have the exact same damage output as the scrapper.
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I'm pretty sure Nihilii's post was sarcasm. "Yes, if you don't count the weaker protection a Scrapper is just as survivable as a Tanker. And if you don't count the weaker damage a Tanker does just as much damage as a Scrapper." |
Originally Posted by Sarrate
I feel like I have to be reading/interpreting it wrong.
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I was also surprised that the higher Resistances of Shield didn't come up as well, but that's why I replied. But yeah, if you eliminate everything that gives the Tanker the advantage in the comparison, obviously the Scrapper looks better.
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*facepalms*|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
I'm pretty sure Nihilii's post was sarcasm. "Yes, if you don't count the weaker protection a Scrapper is just as survivable as a Tanker. And if you don't count the weaker damage a Tanker does just as much damage as a Scrapper."
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Yeah, that definitely sounds more like it. You know, for as much sarcasm as I was exposed to while growing up, I sure suck at detecting it at times. I'll just blame text based communication, I think.
Excuse me, I should have mentioned that I was assuming the scrapper and tanker were at the softcap for defense. Though I admit resitances and HP slipped my mind.
[QUOTE=Jade_Dragon;2307264]It would be way worse if Brutes did not get Fury on pseudo-pets at all, though...
I keep hearing this over and over and I guess on spread sheets that looks good for scrappers and bad for brutes. But that fury MUST be making a real big impact in game. This is the Delta that does make it better for brutes vs Scrappers and gets lost in a spreadsheet.
How do I back that up? I put the spreadsheets down and just look what is happening in game.
Let's take a look at spawns players like to farm that have 8 mobs or more. You know where they are...I always see brutes (shield/lighting the most) there Blowing up spawns and moving on the fastest. They herd, shield charge and BOOM all or most Insta DEAD. I sometime but not often see a tank, slowly turtling along with no fear of dying. I have to say I don't really see Scrappers. Why? The Brute Defense and Fury Damage delta pushes them over cleary vs a Scrapper. So, this is why I say the real question is why a scrapper rather than a Brute. You get MOST ( may be not all but close to it) of the damage of a scrapper with the survivability of a tanker. I just don't see the shield scrappers there vs Brutes and tanks, and I think they reason is survivabilty.
I really don't think tanks have anything to fear.
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Well, I must admit taken out of context, it made me go, "Wait... what?" as well. |
Originally Posted by Sarrate
*facepalms*
Yeah, that definitely sounds more like it. You know, for as much sarcasm as I was exposed to while growing up, I sure suck at detecting it at times. I'll just blame text based communication, I think. |
Then I had to say, "Ah the OP was talking about with Defense softcapped. And forgetting totally about the Resistances in Sheild".
Which, totally on a non sequitor, is why I suspect we will never see Super Reflexes for Tankers, at least not in its existing form. If we do, it will probably be with reduced Defense, so Tankers can sit at the soft cap without exceeding it, and much greater values on the scaling resistance. A hodgepodge of powers like healing or a debuff/taunt aura might be possible, too.
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Understandable, since the Res is not really well known for Shield. That's kind of what I was trying to say, though, Shield has a big "gap" for Scrappers, because it's a very offense oriented set, but it has a small "gap" for Tankers, because it's not very Resistance or healing oriented. Like, say, Stone. That's bad, but it's not Tankers that are at fault, it's Shield. Not that a more offensive set isn't something that some Tanker players want. |
Originally Posted by North_Woods
Excuse me, I should have mentioned that I was assuming the scrapper and tanker were at the softcap for defense. Though I admit resitances and HP slipped my mind.
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I think in the end, there is still enough advantage to resiliance for the Tanker. A Tanker can leverage Shield to make it possible for him to do what he does, which is wade into a huge spawn and laugh as they try to dent his armor.
[quote=taekoUSA;2307570]
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I don't think any AT has anything major to fear. Some adjustments may need to be made, but there is far too much doomsaying about ATs and Going Rogue. I think Scrappers and Brutes have pros and cons that can balance out as well.
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
It would be way worse if Brutes did not get Fury on pseudo-pets at all, though...
I keep hearing this over and over and I guess on spread sheets that looks good for scrappers and bad for brutes. But that fury MUST be making a real big impact in game. This is the Delta that does make it better for brutes vs Scrappers and gets lost in a spreadsheet. How do I back that up? I put the spreadsheets down and just look what is happening in game. Let's take a look at spawns players like to farm that have 8 mobs or more. You know where they are...I always see brutes (shield/lighting the most) there Blowing up spawns and moving on the fastest. They herd, shield charge and BOOM all or most Insta DEAD. I sometime but not often see a tank, slowly turtling along with no fear of dying. I have to say I don't really see Scrappers. Why? The Brute Defense and Fury Damage delta pushes them over cleary vs a Scrapper. So, this is why I say the real question is why a scrapper rather than a Brute. You get MOST ( may be not all but close to it) of the damage of a scrapper with the survivability of a tanker. I just don't see the shield scrappers there vs Brutes and tanks, and I think they reason is survivabilty. I really don't think tanks have anything to fear. |
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
If you want to invest less into the toon I'd go with the tank. It is very easy to get up and over 40% def on tank shields.|
Originally Posted by North_Woods
According to some patch notes on test, shield charge is now going to be affected by damage multipliers that give it a small damage boost on tanks and a large damage boost on scrappers.
Now that the damage gap is even farther apart between a shield tanker vs. a shield scrapper, why would you ever make a shield/elec tank over an elec/shield scrapper? Also, I'm pretty sure its possible to softcap a shield scrapper with just a little more work than it would take to softcap a tanker. So aside from the HP difference, the scrapper is going to have the same survivability as the tank right? This is not a troll for tank lovers. I honestly want to make a tanker, but its hard when the damage potential an elec/shield scrapper has is staring me in the face. Convince on why I should not reroll my level 15 shield/elec tanker into an elec/shield scrapper. |
If you are going to dump a lot of inf into the toon then I'd go with the scrapper. It will be survivable enough to handle pretty much anything the game throws at you.
The tank has a clear advantage in terms of team support and don't kid yourself the damage on SC and L-rod is still astounding...especially for a tank.
That said an elec/shield scrapper can easily play the "dead enemies = mitigation" game. Possibly easier than any other toon out there. The damage on L-rod and SC for scrappers is so high that each one becomes a "remove all minions" button. Put together they become a "remove everything, but bosses" button.
You could say you don't really need the extra team support the tank version offers because the scrapper can instantly thin the group by ~70%.
but ya, if you have inf I would go with the scrapper myself. If you plan expensive builds, but never actually realize them, I'd go with the tank.
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I don't think you understood. Fury does effect psuedo-pets. The devs fixed that some time ago. So the problem now is that Fury is capped at 400% on psuedo-pets, instead of what it is supposed to be. (850%?) What I was saying is that getting about half of your Fury is better than getting none at all. |
Originally Posted by taekoUSA
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Also note that previous to this change, Tankers and Scrappers were doing Brute damage with Shield Charge WITHOUT the Fury bonus. So likely the reason you don't see Scrappers going around LR/SCing through groups is because the damage was minimal compared to a Brute with full Fury. Now that they do considerably more (~50% more?) you may actually see some of those LR/SCes through a spawn that way.
Well I think I've been convinced to keep the toon as a tanker and I'm looking forward to leveling him up. I've been playing scrappers for awhile now, and haven't played a tanker seriously since EM got nerfed. My first tanker to 50 was an ice/em, and I really got spoiled with chilling embrace, hoarfrost, and energy absorbtion. I haven't heard any complaints about shield being squishy, so I assume that the durability comes in different forms, like HP and resistances like some people had mentioned.
Another reason to pick a tank that I over looked, but was brought up a couple times, was teaming. My first IO'd toon was a fire/spines scrapper, and its amazing what it can do, but scrappers are often over looked for teams, and I enjoy teaming. Also, I like the mobs sticking to me when I'm thrashing them. The one thing I disliked about the scrapper was that, whatever didn't die in the first 3 seconds usually was running away from me. Now that isn't so problematic on a spines scrapper, but I could see it being annoying on a toon with no range.
According to some patch notes on test, shield charge is now going to be affected by damage multipliers that give it a small damage boost on tanks and a large damage boost on scrappers.
Now that the damage gap is even farther apart between a shield tanker vs. a shield scrapper, why would you ever make a shield/elec tank over an elec/shield scrapper? Also, I'm pretty sure its possible to softcap a shield scrapper with just a little more work than it would take to softcap a tanker. So aside from the HP difference, the scrapper is going to have the same survivability as the tank right?
This is not a troll for tank lovers. I honestly want to make a tanker, but its hard when the damage potential an elec/shield scrapper has is staring me in the face.
Convince on why I should not reroll my level 15 shield/elec tanker into an elec/shield scrapper.