I like Power Sets because...
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-10-04 14:30 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Burnout from CO already?
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Originally Posted by Perfect_Pain
After experiencing some new and different things, I have learned that I really do like Power Sets. I like picking say, Electric and having 9 powers to chose from inside the set... and then chosing Fire, and having 9 other powers to chose from. I really like the way defences is done in this game. Where I can have multiple Toggles of Defence or Damage Resistance on at the same time.
I think this game found a great balance in how it lets us chose powers. I think having absolute freedom is not so good, because in my experience all my powers end up being kind of the same. I have SnowStorm on 6 characters for example. And no... they are not all Ice people... ugh. i dislike that much Freedom tbh. Anyways, I can't wait for Going Rogue. I hope they give more announcements about it soon. |
no multi-toggs in CO? srsly?
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No no I hope she keeps playing....|
Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
Burnout from CO already?
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You know, so we don't have to?
Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
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I don't think it's burnout. I got Burnt out of this game because I played it everyday for 3+ years... and sometimes I played for like 8+ hours in a day or multiple days in a row.
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Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
Burnout from CO already?
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and... What is your problem?
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Originally Posted by Zekiran_Immortal
No no I hope she keeps playing....
You know, so we don't have to? |
the problem with an 'open' power system is the same as the problem with letting players make their own missions- the majority of players are going to gravitate to the most efficient choices.
In a pen and paper RPG played with friends that isn't a problem- there's no benefit for the PCs all taking the same hyperefficient, min-maxed powers because the GM can trump it whenever they want. So the players are free to make the character they want, trusting the GM to provide the appropriate level of challenge.
In an MMO it doesn't really work because the incentive IS there for everyone to take the most efficient choices, creating a largely cookie-cutter playerbase. Or, as with MA farms being percieved as "the only" way to play, the perception of a cookie-cutter playerbase, which ends up being roughly the same thing.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I never left.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Welcome back
 |
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Originally Posted by Perfect_Pain
I never left.
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You have a one month gap in posts. If GG meant welcome back to the forums, you were indeed gone.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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But that's really the game developer's fault for not making all options equally viable. If damage trumps crowd controls and buffs/debuffs, but you want all choices to be equally viable, make the latter two options more desirable. If ranged attacks trump melee attacks because they're easier to apply, make melee attacks more desirable if you want people to use those too.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
the problem with an 'open' power system is the same as the problem with letting players make their own missions- the majority of players are going to gravitate to the most efficient choices.
[...] In an MMO it doesn't really work because the incentive IS there for everyone to take the most efficient choices, creating a largely cookie-cutter playerbase. Or, as with MA farms being percieved as "the only" way to play, the perception of a cookie-cutter playerbase, which ends up being roughly the same thing. |
In theory, this is pretty straightforward. I realize that practice is a different beast altogether, but really. At the core of good MMO design is making all skill/power choices equally viable. They don't need to perform exactly alike or be numerically weighted to the nth degree. It's okay for one option to situationally outperform another if the other option too gets its day in the sun and they come out roughly even.
This is not just specific of one game with an open power structure. This is MMO building 101 and part of why the development process for MMOs takes as long as it does. If you make a game with 12 classes and everyone looking for an easy time plays the same class, your design is faulty. If you make a game with an open skill selection process and everyone gravitates towards the same basic setup in lieu of more varied builds, your design is faulty.
The open nature of a pick and choose process might exacerbate the issue, but it's always there. The difference between good and bad MMO design is in how pronounced the imbalance is.
"If you're going through hell, keep going."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
Never thought I'd agree with P_P on much of anything. This instance you speak of makes me cringe still. I found myself exploiting the Freedom, and gravitated towards the powers that didn't fit my concept, but made the game that much easier to play. Sure, there's a few powers here in there in different sets that benefit off the same set, but in comparison to what we've got?
I don't think the 'Open Powers' system is going to be the next big thing.
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I dunno. Isn't this kind of down the same train of thought that has almost every character in CoH pick up Stamina and Hasten, no matter whether it fits the concept?|
Originally Posted by Sigium
Never thought I'd agree with P_P on much of anything. This instance you speak of makes me cringe still. I found myself exploiting the Freedom, and gravitated towards the powers that didn't fit my concept, but made the game that much easier to play. Sure, there's a few powers here in there in different sets that benefit off the same set, but in comparison to what we've got?
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| I don't think the 'Open Powers' system is going to be the next big thing. |
"If you're going through hell, keep going."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
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Gamers will always gravitate to "the best" powers. |
Originally Posted by Eisregen_NA
But that's really the game developer's fault for not making all options equally viable. If damage trumps crowd controls and buffs/debuffs, but you want all choices to be equally viable, make the latter two options more desirable. If ranged attacks trump melee attacks because they're easier to apply, make melee attacks more desirable if you want people to use those too.
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An AT system is good for a game because it enforces diversity. This AT is good at this, this other one is good at that. In any system where anyone can take anything, players will all flock to the "best", whatever that is.
I don't think it's possible to make everything equally viable. They can't even do it in the much more limited world of FPS games, where there is always a "best" gun that "everyone" uses- the evolution of FPS games toward the class system deployed by MMOs amply demonstrates their solution to that particular problem.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Honestly, I have never encountered this "too much freedom" problem. I don't have a problem choosing a "less awesome" option if it looks interesting. I love building characters.
Gimme enough rope, even if the least imaginative people will end up hanging themselves with it!
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I don't want to play CO. So if you keep playing, I can keep enjoying this game without wondering what I'm missing there. I have no issue.
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Originally Posted by Perfect_Pain
and... What is your problem?
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Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
Repurposed
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We aren't playing it. We did for the beginning of last month... but then we got a new puppy... and a new puppy is a helluva lot more interesting! <3 She is a Chihuahua Pomeranian mix... named her Luna. |
Originally Posted by Zekiran_Immortal
I don't want to play CO. So if you keep playing, I can keep enjoying this game without wondering what I'm missing there. I have no issue.
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We have both agreed that we can't wait for Going Rogue :\
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There are actually a good deal of builds that can flourish without Stamina. And this, combined with a VERY loose definition of Fitness is, makes it much easier... After all, I can say that I'm fit, when I'm not. I can say "Compared to this guy, I'm pretty swift... Compared to that guy, I've got Stamina... So she tells me. >_>"|
Originally Posted by Eisregen_NA
I dunno. Isn't this kind of down the same train of thought that has almost every character in CoH pick up Stamina and Hasten, no matter whether it fits the concept?
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Is that the case? Well, half of it. I'm not the most swift guy out there, but if I were to make a character based off myself? Yeah, I'm swift compared to a few guys.
This other system, however, involves needing to launch small mines, summoning healing drones, etc. Don't even get me started on how limited the frameworks are; there's no melee for any elemental powers! D:<
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Originally Posted by Eisregen_NA
If it was done right, by professionals who know what they're doing, I think it's a viable alternative to hardbaked class systems. It just hasn't been tried by those people yet.
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*gnaws on Perfect_Pain's head*
nom nom nom nom
Missed you ^_^
well, eis, honestly, its easy to say that all options should remain viable, but in practice it never works out that way, and i doubt you could show me a single mmo(or fighting game, or fps, im going to exclude rts' because i simply have too small a frame of reference for it.) where they achieved it. before you know who, the last open system that i played was star wars galaxies, and there were huge problems with the system there as well.also, its rare that players choices cant mitigate the situations where their powers are less effective and wind up not worrying about situational powers. Honestly, i like open powers in theory, and am somewhat enjoying them in practice, but there is a way that power sets can make a natural synergy with each other that makes characters seem to flow on a better power progression curve.
much like the instanced vurses outdoor argument, the benefit of seeing the alternate choices taken is that we can see both the good and bad of if those choices had been taken. and if you have the time/budget, you can experience both wolds for their respective good points.
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As an old-school Counter-Strike player I'd have to disagree. I've known a lot of people who were unstoppable dervishes with an MP5 and used it to a much better effect than the M4. Me, I used the AK-47. At close range, you were dead anyhow, and at long range I'd headshot you with a double tap. Can't do that with the M4. On sniper rifles, most people gravitated to the Arctic Warfare, but people who took the time to learn how to use the G3 to effect casually outperformed them. There definitely wasn't a best gun.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I don't think it's possible to make everything equally viable. They can't even do it in the much more limited world of FPS games, where there is always a "best" gun that "everyone" uses- the evolution of FPS games toward the class system deployed by MMOs amply demonstrates their solution to that particular problem.
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I could repeat the comparison for UT but you catch my drift, I hope.
That said, yes, balancing still isn't easy, and I'm totally in favour of certain specs being situationally better than others. The problem with the game in question is that it doesn't even give you a real option to build anything other than a damage dealer. And since you only need 2-4 powers to be an efficient damage dealer, you stack the rest with options that increase your survivability. Because if everyone takes care of themselves, everyone is taken care of.
If each free form selection offered viable power multiplier powers that were not a pain to use (because they are for example mutually exclusive when used by the same caster), I think people would take to them. WAR has made sure that most classes have some kind of team buff at their disposal, so almost all classes add to a team. And people don't need to be told to use them either, they do so automatically when teamed.
I'm of the opinion that if you build it, they will come. But CO hasn't even really bothered to build anything but damage powers and personal defenses, the occasional speck of crowd control notwithstanding. As such I simply feel it's an inappropriate example of the possibilities or shortfalls of an open system. Because it's an open system that is bereft of viable choices.
"If you're going through hell, keep going."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
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Oh, I know. I have a few Stamina-less builds myself. An ELA Brute, a Cold Corruptor, sundry. And yes, Fitness CAN be explained away, and Hasten too. You CAN explain everything away inside your context if you really need to. Still. My DM/DA Scrapper to this day doesn't have Hasten because I don't want him to have glowing hands. It's jarring to me, it doesn't fit. Other people only care for the numerical benefit and gladly slap Hasten on anyone and anything.|
Originally Posted by Sigium
There are actually a good deal of builds that can flourish without Stamina. And this, combined with a VERY loose definition of Fitness is, makes it much easier... After all, I can say that I'm fit, when I'm not. I can say "Compared to this guy, I'm pretty swift... Compared to that guy, I've got Stamina... So she tells me. >_>"
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| This other system, however, involves needing to launch small mines, summoning healing drones, etc. Don't even get me started on how limited the frameworks are; there's no melee for any elemental powers! D:< |
But really, with the advanced technology of most any superhero universe, carrying drones and mines is a non-issue to rationalize. Just think of it as a super-powered arms race. "My powers didn't do it by themselves, so I stopped by Nerdy Ned's Nuclear Nonsequiturs and loaded up."
Okay, that doesn't sound very heroic, granted. But it's still a valid IC explanation.
"If you're going through hell, keep going."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
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Actually, I care about the damage type. It's not a BIG issue, but it's something that bothered me greatly. There are no elemental weapon attacks, no elemental melee, not a single one. There were so very many gaps in so very many frameworks that I found myself breaking concepts just so I could avoid redundant powers.|
Originally Posted by Eisregen_NA
The lack of energy-type melee attacks of any kind really bothered me as well, incidentally. You'd have thought that their much-vaunted power customization would allow you to just tack something neat-looking onto Might or Unarmed MA attacks. "Who cares about the damage type, I just want it to look like he's punching people with burning fists."
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Originally Posted by Eisregen_NA
But really, with the advanced technology of most any superhero universe, carrying drones and mines is a non-issue to rationalize. Just think of it as a super-powered arms race. "My powers didn't do it by themselves, so I stopped by Nerdy Ned's Nuclear Nonsequiturs and loaded up."
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Originally Posted by Eisregen_NA
Okay, that doesn't sound very heroic, granted. But it's still a valid IC explanation.
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CO has no elemental melee attacks?
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Originally Posted by Sigium
Actually, I care about the damage type. It's not a BIG issue, but it's something that bothered me greatly. There are no elemental weapon attacks, no elemental melee, not a single one.
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Nope. No Melee attacks for Fire, Ice, Electric, Force (We call it Energy), or Darkness. It bugged the HELL out of me.
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Originally Posted by Mr. NoPants
CO has no elemental melee attacks?
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After experiencing some new and different things, I have learned that I really do like Power Sets. I like picking say, Electric and having 9 powers to chose from inside the set... and then chosing Fire, and having 9 other powers to chose from. I really like the way defences is done in this game. Where I can have multiple Toggles of Defence or Damage Resistance on at the same time.
I think this game found a great balance in how it lets us chose powers. I think having absolute freedom is not so good, because in my experience all my powers end up being kind of the same. I have SnowStorm on 6 characters for example. And no... they are not all Ice people... ugh. i dislike that much Freedom tbh.
Anyways, I can't wait for Going Rogue. I hope they give more announcements about it soon.