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You make it sound as if such a thing were difficult to do|
Originally Posted by ketch
You would need to add an interrupt time
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Originally Posted by ketch
Unless you planned on letting it bend the rules by circumventing an interrupt period.
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But I have seen Snipe attacks get slotted up such that there's remarkably little problem with using them as part of a repeatable attack chain. So from where I'm spectating, the interrupt on a Snipe power is not nearly as much of a problem compared to the status quo of Propel.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
Interupt reducers don't actually change the time it takes to fire the power. So you'd still be caught in the same animation time as currently, only with a chance to not fire it at all if you get interrupted.
Better to just lower the animation time.
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Not difficult at all, just ugh. |
Originally Posted by Redlynne
You make it sound as if such a thing were difficult to do
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First, it doesn't resolve Propel's main problem, its long activation. The complaint that I see most often about propel is that it has landed after the enemy has been defeated. If it was standardized with other snipes it would mean an increasing the cast time to 4+ seconds, escalating the problem.
Additionally, this butts up against the problem that Dominator's find with their snipes. Where and when do you use a snipe? The vast majority of the time you will be better off opening with an AoE control. After the mob is locked down? Until Wormhole, Gravity lacks an every spawn control and even then the radius is often too small to deal with an entire spawn on an 8-person team. As part of an attack chain? I'd rather re-apply crush for the reliability or even lift for a bit of soft control.
Also, when does it become a better option (or even an equal option) to applying more control, debuffing the enemy, or buffing your allies? For dominators, with the choice of control or damage, there may be a place for snipes but controllers would almost always have a better option in play.
Outside of the utility of having an IO mule for a 7.5% recharge bonus, I see no reason to have a snipe in a control set.
As messed up as Grav is and it is probably one of the most complained about sets I have never seen a dev comment on improving it ever. Which is very sad IMO.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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This alone would be a great start. I love this idea, you have a great mind!|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Propel - Add a chance to summon an object that is targetable. These objects create variable effects when they are destroyed. - Vehicles - AoE fire explosion - Computer Equipment - AoE electric blast - Canisters - Small oil slick/ice slick - Metal / Glass Objects - shrapnel (caltrops) (Note: I am aware that this change is not compatible with the current version of Propel, and may not be possible from a technical perspective.) |
- It's random just like the rest of the set, you never really know what you're going to do next!
- It actually does damage. I no longer have propel. The animation it way to long to use since my Gravity teams most of the time (and there's some IOing reasons not valid here).
- It adds control. At an early level. Well, it *might* add control, if you pull the right stuff. Maybe some cans can even let out acid for debuffing.
- Its something the uncontrolled foes can hit, something other than you, even if its one hit. Gravs always have uncontrolled foes.
- If you can't enhance the Targetable's side effects it wouldn't be overpowered. Remember these would be little minis of what we already have in game.
On another note:
Due to possible PvP reasons (which may no longer be true) Dimension Shift will be hard to get rid of. For us. I mean convincing the developers to change. You get me?
There is no creative impulse without discontent.
@Virlou
I will admit I dont want Propel to summon a thing. Thats part of the problem a lot of the time is WASTED generating and image and then firing it. I would have made propel something simply. Amr held forward like Cosmic Burst a small singularity would shoot out and the effect would be a mag 3 Stun. simple quick and USEFUL...
I would also make Dimension SHift go away.. and make it.. WORMHOLE.. thats right.. I would move Wormhole to level 12.. you can even keep the name Dimension Shift if you want..
Then I would create a NEW Power at level 26 that I call Black Hole Slam.. I would make it something like the Omega Maneuver Nuke.. A small rift is space that taunts ( effectively pulling mobs toward it ) and then when it reaches critical mass explodes for some smashing and energy damage( with some kind of small secondary effect, -res something )
For me that would do two things.. make Gravity a faster set with Propel Changes and make it a slightly more offensive set that still can have some decent control factors mixed in..
Now you can use Black Hole Slam as a opener and utilize Crushing Field better. You could hold that LT with Gravity Distortion. You can Blast and stun that other LT with new Propel. etc etc
Thats my idea but it will never happen...
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Change DS to a toggle.
Take the KB out of Wormhole.
Change the range of Wormhole so that it has a maximum distance between the entry and exit points but no max range to target as long as it doesn't exceed that of entry and exit points.
Wormhole could then also be used tactically to bring distant targets to the team rather than sending them away.
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
Why should you want the KB removed from WH? It just makes sense that a spawn is KBed after being sucked and tossed by WH. WH is not an AoE TP foe.
@False Fiction - Virtue / Defiant
Current projects - [Glaciologist - Ill/Cold Troller] [Cloudshaper - Storm/Dark Def] [Harald Wartooth - Elec/Psi Domi]
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Originally Posted by False_Fiction_EU
Why should you want the KB removed from WH? It just makes sense that a spawn is KBed after being sucked and tossed by WH. WH is not an AoE TP foe.
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Partially because it would make the mechanic of the power less annoying. However I simply hover above the mob and tp them straight down while applying crushing field to hold them in place. Makes a psuedo hold..
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Every time I hear that name I can't help but think of this pro wrestling move. (Ignore the crap music, it was the best batch of clips of it I could find.)|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
Black Hole Slam
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Also, quit trying to take DS out. It has uses, all it needs is to be tweaked, and swapped with Wormhole. Lift needs the same damage as propel, and cut the animation time on Propel down a tuch. I'll even take 2 seconds.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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This thread to me feels like one person doesnt like gravity and wants to change it for everyone. I don't think thats going to work:
I have played gravity to 40 as a controller at 36 as a dominator. Like many sets it has powers that we deem "un-useful" I think all sets have one. For example, who pics stun for energy melee still? Black hole for dark miasma? Mass Hypnosis from Mind control? Some of us use them. I think in general, for a team blasting through things...these strategic, emergency powers don't get used and so we think they need to be thrown away.
DS can be useful. Raise your hands if you ever been on a team where the mob is trashing the team or there are just too many despite all the holds, debuffs, etc.? Throw DS and the team can 1)make a run for it and regroup or 2) phase enough baddies so the ones that arent phased aren't a problem. I remember a time in PvP when intanglibles were deadly....thats now gone, YES!
Lift doesnt need to be buffed for dmg, IMO it would be too powerful and as an AoE would suffer some reduction of ACC which I wouldn't be happy with.
Every power set isnt for everyone, thats why there are soo many so pick one that works for you. Gravity, is unique just like other sets. Treat it that way and play it according to that. Changing it to suite "you" isn't cool....eventually someone wil lbe writing a complaint thread on how they dont like the changes inspired by you.
I have fun with it on my dom, and although wormhole does come a bit late, and maybe should be switched with DS I was working just fine with the aoe immob & aoe hold regardless of recharge time), lift and all the other goodies before I got it.
Coming from someone who has a lvl 50 Grav/Rad and a few Gravity Doms. Switching DS and WH placement would go a loooong way to improve the set. Dimension shift is a fun flavor power, but its practical in-game usefulness doesn't pan out. However, having an available AoE disorient/control at lvl 12 (a'la Flashfire) would be ideal.
The set isn't so bad that it needs a wholesale overhaul. It has one of the best, most durable tanking pets you can get, great slows for secondary effects, and awesome ST control. I know others have mentioned the same thing but I just want to add my vote in as well.
My level 50 Dominators:
Madame Mindbender 50 Mind/Energy
Fly Agaric 50 Plant/Thorn
Nate Nitro 50 Fire/Psi
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Odd. I've noticed several people indicated a few issues. Now I may rail against Dimension Shift at the drop of a hat, but that's because it's broken. It may be broken in a way that helps the player occasionally, by allowing them to phase a GM for example, but it is broken nonetheless. |
Originally Posted by Amir
This thread to me feels like one person doesnt like gravity and wants to change it for everyone. I don't think thats going to work:
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The other big issue is Propel. I think some folks have gone a bit overboard in their suggestions for it. Reduce the activation time and we're good. That's all it needs.
Finally, we come to Lift. As has been already noted this power has been normalized with Levitate for doms. They just need to finish the job and do the same on the controller side.
If Lift and Propel were corrected then Grav would gain significant single target damage, perhaps enough to justify its early lack of control. While they may never reshape Dimension Shift into something I would like it still needs correction so that it behaves in a clear and predictable manner that is in line with other mez effects.
There is one other thing we could do to Grav that might make it more desireable for Controllers and for Corruptors: add a secondary effect. Here are some possibilities, both exotic and not:
- Resistance Debuff - Similar to how Sonic powers currently work, but with lower values (say 5-7% resistance per power).
- Mag Protection/Resistance DeBuff- Basically, chipping away at enemy's base magnitude protection and resistance each time a power hits. It would work in exactly the opposite way of powers that increase mag protection, but with lower values per power. This would make up for Gravity's weaker controls by having the ones that are available more likely to hit and last longer.
- Damage DeBuff - So that enemies do less damage with their attacks.
- Secondary Effect DeBuff - So that enemies that can mezz do so at lower values (personally this is my favorite because its so different, useful, and not totally overpowering)
- Range Debuff - Probably the most "in character" debuff. Things can't travel as far because of the weird gravity effects. Even makes up for the fact that Gravity has to rely so much on the AoE immob.
If Castle were to recode Dimension Shift as a Toggle ... I'm thinking it would look something like this.
Note that such a change would NOT require *breaking* the Cottage Rule ... while at the same time GREATLY enhancing Player control over the power.
Dimension Shift
Level: 12
Type: Toggle
PvE damage scale: 0.000000
Accuracy:1
Modes required:
Modes disallowed: Disable_All
Range:60 feet
Activate period: 4 seconds
Interrupt time: -
Cast time: 1.17 seconds
Recharge time: 90 seconds
Endurance cost: 1.73
Attack types:
Effect area: Sphere
Radius: 25 feet
Arc: -
Max targets hit: 16
Entities affected: Foe
Entities autohit: Foe
Target: Foe
Target visibility: Line of Sight
Nofity Mobs: Always
- +3 Intangible, Unknown for 3.9s PvE only
- ThreatLevel -1 for 4.1s PvE only
Effect does not stack from same caster - +6 Immobilize for 4.1s PvE only
Effect does not stack from same caster - Grant "Temporary_Powers.Temporary_Powers.NoPhase" (-) [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
- +3 Intangible, Unknown for 8s If target is a player
Suppressed when Phased1, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive) - ThreatLevel -1 for 8s If target is a player
Suppressed when Phased1, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive) - +6 Immobilize for 8s If target is a player
Suppressed when Phased1, for 15 seconds (WhenInactive)
Encourage BAB to (re)use a more "visible" animation to indicate which Mob(s) have been affected by the power, to reduce player confusion when Dimension Shift gets used, and we'll have a winner. Just need to be willing to accept that for 0.1s every 4s ... Foes "trapped" inside the Dimension Shift can successfully attack out of it.
The Grant Temporary Power property is what causes Phase Self effects to last no longer than 30 seconds before self suppressing for 60 seconds in already existing powers. Applying it here means that Dimension Shift will have an upper limit of 30 seconds to Phase Others before the toggle suppresses itself (if left turned on).
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
The Dimension Shift/toggle idea has been floating around for a while, and unfortunately I believe the devs have commented that they can't go that route. The reason is that once something goes intangible, the player can no longer affect it, which would cause the power to detoggle on the second pulse. I think it's a good suggestion otherwise.
My forumulation is that the Intangibility effect is timed to be less than the Activation time by a small amount. That means that the Intangibility effect duration *expires* before being automagically reapplied 0.1 seconds after it wears off. Thus, you never wind up with a situation where you're trying to apply an Intangible effect onto a target that is already Intangible.
It's also why the formulation for PvP is set up the way it is ... since it gives you an 8 second duration of applied effect before self suppressing for 15 seconds, which then, again, results in a "does not apply while already in effect" result.
Like I said, this means that intermittently there will be a (0.1 second) window of opportunity for PvE Foes caught in a Dimension Shift to successfully attack out of it during the 30 seconds in which your Intangibility can "stick" to the targets ... but the odds of any attacks from inside the effect being successful are pretty darn slim (0.1 seconds is 2.5% of 4 seconds).
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
First off *I* am not the only one who believes that Gravity needs help. This thread is several pages long with a majority of the posts from people voicing their opinions on how to change Gravity is better, Peacemoon's original thread reached about 7 pages and if you read the Cottage Rule thread you'll find several more pages of people that believe it needs to be changed.
Second, I am not trying to change the set to fit my playstyle, I'm wishing it to fit the AT's goal. Having no CONTROL for a CONTROL set other then an AoE hold on a 2 minute recharge timer is pathetic to me. On a team that actually invited you to control in levels 1-25 do you just repeatedly tab Gravity Distortion and lift when Gravity distortion field was down?
Third Wormhole can be an amazing power on a team that understands and change their playstyles in order for it to be effective but due to its small radius, even a good gravity player can slow teams down by accidently splitting mobs due to its small radius.
And last I too have played Gravity quite a bit..I had a Gravity/Storm controller who I reached 44 with before deleting as anyother /Storm controller seemed to bring more to a team and a level 24 dom I shelved who I did actually take dimension shift on for soloing purposes so he could actually handle +0x2 settings.
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I have a Level 50 Grav/Storm troller who I still play occasionally. I think the two changes mentioned by Ketch would help Gravity quite a bit. |
Originally Posted by ketch
Odd. I've noticed several people indicated a few issues. Now I may rail against Dimension Shift at the drop of a hat, but that's because it's broken. It may be broken in a way that helps the player occasionally, by allowing them to phase a GM for example, but it is broken nonetheless.
The other big issue is Propel. I think some folks have gone a bit overboard in their suggestions for it. Reduce the activation time and we're good. That's all it needs. Finally, we come to Lift. As has been already noted this power has been normalized with Levitate for doms. They just need to finish the job and do the same on the controller side. If Lift and Propel were corrected then Grav would gain significant single target damage, perhaps enough to justify its early lack of control. While they may never reshape Dimension Shift into something I would like it still needs correction so that it behaves in a clear and predictable manner that is in line with other mez effects. |
I know some folks like DS, but for me it was always a "meh" power. I was happy to skip it but for those that use it, leave it.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Think about it.
The animation is *already* almost as long as a snipe attack.
Propel
Cast Time: 3.5 seconds
Recharge: 8 seconds
Range: 60 ft
Endurance: 9.36
Damage: 1.96 multiplier
Snipe (Defenders and Blasters)
Cast Time: 4.33 seconds (3 second Interrupt)
Recharge: 12 seconds
Range: 150 ft
Endurance: 14.352
Damage: 2.76 multiplier
Such a *simple* change would make Propel a FAR more useful power. And it's not like you'd need to remove IO sets from it by making such a change, since Castle would only need to permit Propel to accept Sniper Sets in addition to the ones it already takes.
S imple.
E asy.
E ffective.
Not even being contemplated.