Nice Video! Your framerate is affected but just barely. It was like a normal-performance gameplay to me.
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Yea, it looks alright in the actual video (which I guess is the point) but when I had FRAPS running my actual game was running at about 10 FPS. I expected that, though, with it being so old. That's why I had to be careful about the level of the mobs I was fighting. The game was moving at a crawl on my screen, regardless of how the video was recording. At least the video wasn't at a snail's pace. Thanks for watching!
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Originally Posted by BlissKnight
Nice Video! Your framerate is affected but just barely. It was like a normal-performance gameplay to me.
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cool vid, you kill them so fast I wonder if just the hold from PT would keep them in the patch long enough. Though I can see the aoe immob being important for higher cons.
Impressive. I like how everything goes from full to dead in the blink of an eye once you set it up.
Your build is very effective, the only thing I'd change is pulling the FF proc out of assault bot and moving that slot to poison trap as the Lockdown proc.
Pets don't benefit from +rech anymore and the lockdown proc in PT is very good and would look awesome when paired with electric fences as it uses the telsa cage vfx.
nice work.
Edit: and would stack nicely with the hold proc in your aoe immob.
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You know, I read the posts and everything else in those threads about the pet recharge, but tried the Force Feedback proc anyway. I can see it in the recharge modifiers in my pet's statistics, and when it goes off, I see a visible difference in my BossBot's attack speed.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
cool vid, you kill them so fast I wonder if just the hold from PT would keep them in the patch long enough. Though I can see the aoe immob being important for higher cons.
Impressive. I like how everything goes from full to dead in the blink of an eye once you set it up. Your build is very effective, the only thing I'd change is pulling the FF proc out of assault bot and moving that slot to poison trap as the Lockdown proc. Pets don't benefit from +rech anymore and the lockdown proc in PT is very good and would look awesome when paired with electric fences as it uses the telsa cage vfx. nice work. Edit: and would stack nicely with the hold proc in your aoe immob. |
Maybe it's all in my head, or maybe it's still working. I suppose I'm not going to be able to rest now until I find out.
Thanks for being the first person in a long while to throw out a great suggestion for minor build change for him. I'll think long and hard on it.
As for the AoE Immob, it's ABSOLUTELY necessary. The Bots have a tremendous amount of scatter and the Boss Bot is just as likely to use his AoE Knockback as he is his AoE Burn. I've failed to get the Immob off before he lets loose and it sends my perfect herds flying.
That's also one of the reasons I had to go Mu. Not only does Mu fit well thematically, but it's one of the few pools for MMs that has -KB in its immobilize. Also consider that I use trip mine often and liberally in this build. Even if all I said wasn't true about the Boss Bot, Trip Mines will scatter mobs all over the place if you don't root them before it goes off.
I'll cogitate on the Lockdown Proc. Thanks for the suggestion!
Ya I thought about mu aoe immob after I posted and pieced together that bots do tremendous kb and it would be essential pretty much every battle when you dont' want kb. I suppose you learned that some time ago hehe.
Ya pets still "show" they benefit from recharge, but they aren't supposed to anymore. I think they said they lack the tech to prevent it from being displayed, but it should be shut off.
(if it isn't, then awesome as I hate hate hate that mechanic).
A really easy way to test would be to get say a cold corruptor to cast some -rech on your Bot and see if it slows his attacks down to a crawl. Might be a bit more visible than timing whether he attacks faster and accounting for ai retardedness. If his attack rate can't be slowed, then it can't be sped up either.
Anyway, cool build man, it was awesome to watch. I do similar things with my fire/traps with rain of fire+aoes, but I can currently only handle +1/8, so I'd say it is pretty clear your toon is a lot tougher and from the looks of it you melt +2's faster than I can do +1's while being safer. I'd like to switch to mu mastery too for that toon, but currently need scorp shield's defense until I can dump some more IO's in. I also sort of need an aoe immob as they can sometimes get away from caltrops+rain of fire alone and webenvelope is the only targeted aoe one for corrs 
. Makes me want a bots/traps though.
I'm also jealous of MM caltrops and being able to accept so many procs, corr version only takes 3 .
Alright, made a minor build change.
Benefits:
Force Feedback was doing nothing slotted in a pet after pet recharge changes, so the slot was moved
Lockdown Proc now slotted in Poison Trap
Positional Defense now fully softcapped when Stealth is suppressed
Cost:
.04 (2.5%) Endurance Efficiency (1 of 2 End Red Slots in Acrobatics removed)
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This looks like a seriously tight build. Hope you don't mind but I'm going to save this one in the event I ever roll a bots/traps.
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You're very welcome. If you'd ever like to drop by Infinity and roll a lowbie, I'll Lackey you and take you into a mission so you can see the build in action and I can answer any questions you might have.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
This looks like a seriously tight build. Hope you don't mind but I'm going to save this one in the event I ever roll a bots/traps.
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Let me know if you have any more questions, and thanks for the feedback.
I am curious as to why Caltrops is accepting enhancements from two damage sets. It was enough to make me go look at my own but I think the taking of Procs from two damage positions made me look if anything. I don't know if allowing that is intended or not.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Nice build but one thing I noticed is you placed the stealth io into combat jumping. Why not place it in sprint instead as it will accept it then it saves you a slot for elsewhere in the build such as boosting recharge of acid mortar or anything else.
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With Bots/Traps you're already plagued with a ton of micromanagement. Tapping Sprint on and off every couple minutes while you're dealing with everything else is just a bit much, at least to me.|
Originally Posted by wuffles
Nice build but one thing I noticed is you placed the stealth io into combat jumping. Why not place it in sprint instead as it will accept it then it saves you a slot for elsewhere in the build such as boosting recharge of acid mortar or anything else.
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I already have to lay caltrops, manage aoe immobs, direct pets, stop runners, lay poison traps, lay trip mines on alpha survivors, redeploy forcefield generators, resummon and buff pets should they go down, upgrade redeployed pets, disperse seeker drones on tighter clumps of targets, make sure my bots aren't going after runners into new groups or leaving my FF generator, decide if I need to drop Triage before aggroing a new group, juggle single target web grenades on mobs missed by AoEs...
I guess not having to micromanage something else was worth 5.5 seconds of recharge on Acid Mortar. However, if you like doing that, change it and go for it. That was just my reason.
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No idea, maybe it was to allow Masterminds to slot a melee set for set bonus diversity, or maybe it's unintended. No way to know. I do know though, that you might want to slot the procs in ASAP to get them grandfathered in in the case that they decide to change it. At some point they decided to remove a slottable set from chilling embrace or icicles quite a few issues back (I forget which) and if you already had the set in there, it stayed and would work, but if you didn't, you couldn't slot certain set types in there anymore.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I am curious as to why Caltrops is accepting enhancements from two damage sets. It was enough to make me go look at my own but I think the taking of Procs from two damage positions made me look if anything. I don't know if allowing that is intended or not.
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It doesn't matter too terribly much though. Putting damage in three slots accomplishes the same purpose, it just gives you less burst damage.
Trip mine for MM's is also a funny one that you may want to get locked in. Though honestly I'd hope they have better things to do than remove slotting options from one iteration of traps. Though it would be nice if they were added to defs/corrs, but probably won't happen.
*though I personally think pbaoe sets in mines are better than aoe sets, it is different nonetheless.
Quote:
I have to admit I'm SO loving Ragnarok in Trip Mine. If anything is EVER a challenge I just drop a few of those suckers before I pull. A spaced series is great fun with AVs and GMs. So much fun to see their life evaporate.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Trip mine for MM's is also a funny one that you may want to get locked in. Though honestly I'd hope they have better things to do than remove slotting options from one iteration of traps. Though it would be nice if they were added to defs/corrs, but probably won't happen.
*though I personally think pbaoe sets in mines are better than aoe sets, it is different nonetheless. |
I don't even need to talk about PvP. With enough set up time you can destroy an entire group of heroes, provided you do things intelligently.
Nice, nice build. Those damage procs in caltrops must be sick. I'm also on Infinity, @Severe Calamity. I have no 50s villainside, but I'll definately come and see your bad boys in action.
Wow! Awesome video and good build. You've resparked my interest in bots/traps. Thanks!
Quote:
You're very welcome!
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Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
Wow! Awesome video and good build. You've resparked my interest in bots/traps. Thanks!
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Great build! I haven't given my bots/traps a respec since IOs came out, just because it was already a very powerful character, but I'm thinking of using some of this on a much needed upgrade.
Do you find that you use Acro very often? You already have some KB protection from IOs. I know you already mentioned micro-management, but I'm considering taking Grant Invisibility instead for the extra +def for the prot bots and another spot for LoTG +recharge.
Quote:
Well, as you said, I already discussed the micromanagement inherent to the build, so to answer your question you simply have to weigh out the pros and cons.|
Originally Posted by Karl_Rove_Man
Great build! I haven't given my bots/traps a respec since IOs came out, just because it was already a very powerful character, but I'm thinking of using some of this on a much needed upgrade.
Do you find that you use Acro very often? You already have some KB protection from IOs. I know you already mentioned micro-management, but I'm considering taking Grant Invisibility instead for the extra +def for the prot bots and another spot for LoTG +recharge. |
Pros:
Grant Invis may let you soft cap your Protectors (who don't necessarily draw much aggro and usually don't die unless they wander out of your FF Gen area or noob it up and go into melee with something nasty)
You'll be able to stealth a mission with pets deployed, at least until your protectors summon seeker drones (which they do even out of combat)
You can invis your FF Generator which might make you a little less easy to spot from far away in pvp (it rarely dies in combat).
Cons:
Grant Invis uses a rather large amount of endurance and wears off in a relatively brief period of time. The amount of recharge increase you would get from an LoTG + Rech wouldn't be that big of a deal, just about any time I want a power up with my current build it's already been up for 30 seconds. Acrobatics gives you mez protection that will tide you over until your FF Gen moves to a new location after you move. Without it you might find yourself held until your FF Generator advances to your position, and sometimes it gets stuck at the wrong moment. Micromanagement.
So, weigh the options and ask yourself what you want. I decided acrobatics would make me happier out of the two, but you may have a different opinion. The answer to your list of pros and cons should decide for you which power you like.
Have fun, and burn em up!
Good point! I've forgotten about the extra hold resistance.
One note on this:
Quote:
If you change the FF Gen's colors to all black, it'll eliminate the giant bubble. I haven't tested it out in PvP yet though.
| You can invis your FF Generator which might make you a little less easy to spot from far away in pvp (it rarely dies in combat). |
Quote:
Even if it works, it's very helpful to be able to tell at a quick glance whether or not you or your bots are currently being protected. You have to be Johnny-On-The-Spot with a recast if it goes down (I actually do a redeployment in the middle of a pull on my video because it popped, if you want to see what I'm talking about).|
Originally Posted by Karl_Rove_Man
If you change the FF Gen's colors to all black, it'll eliminate the giant bubble. I haven't tested it out in PvP yet though.
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If you can't see the bubble effect it's very likely that in the chaos of combat you might not notice if your generator is destroyed (or more likely, expires). Being caught with it down is hands down the EASIEST way to die with a bots/traps, PvE or PvP.
Thanks for the awesome video and build. Your "guide" helped me make my decision to make a Bots/Traps MM as my first Villain (always liked "pet" classes, was a controller on hero side). Now I just have to make all that infamy to supply him with the tools to own that good...
Quote:
Thanks for the feedback! I could always make a full-on Bots/Traps guide if the MMs on the forums want me to. There's one already out there but it seemed the original poster may have just posted what he learned at an early phase and theorycrafted the rest. This is just my two cents, though, not trying to say anything bad about his guide writing ability (just that I felt he missed a lot).|
Originally Posted by Destrukt
Thanks for the awesome video and build. Your "guide" helped me make my decision to make a Bots/Traps MM as my first Villain (always liked "pet" classes, was a controller on hero side). Now I just have to make all that infamy to supply him with the tools to own that good...
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I think I cover a lot of the main points in the build. Feel free to message me at @Circus of the Damned if you'd like to see the build in action on infinity and ask questions.
I reproduced this build and really liked it except for one thing. I had a problem with my protect bots having endurance issues so I just removed one of the level 50 Defense IO's and replaced it with a level 50 Endurance Reduction IO. This one change greatly helped out my protect bots and made this, at least for me a much stronger build.
I sacrificed my computer to the poor performance gods tonight and made a video of this combo so you can see what it's capable of. Running FRAPS and CoX kills my framerate, but you should see what I'm talking about.
These mobs are ranged and have no Stun Protection, so rather than let them come to me as I described below, I simply jumped in after Seekers went off. They almost never touch me anyway.
See the combo here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI8OJ8B8b78
Below is a summary of what I've learned from playing Bots/Traps, along with a copy of my build.
Hints/Tricks/Combos:
Explosive Strike procs can really spice up your Bots' damage.
It's relatively easy to softcap yourself AND your pets with Bots/Traps, making them almost unstoppable.
Make a macro that dumps red inspirations into your Boss Bot before doing large pulls. He does ridiculously large AoEs and burn patches that make this worthwhile.
The Chance for Build Up Purple IO is a great investment in your Boss Bot. His frequent AoEs make it proc constantly.
The Mu Mastery Lightning Fences AoE Immob is a great way to control your Bots' KB attacks and scatter (the primary reason that Bots can be a bit of a pain).
If you can immobilize enemies BEFORE your Bots attack you can stick them all in a VERY large AoE burn patch that does absolutely ridiculous damage. (roughly the equivalent of a 16 mob version of the tanker power Burn)
The Poison Trap can be used to keep mobs still in the Burn Patch.
Picking up the Stealth Power plus the Unbounded Leap IO makes you invisible PvE for setting up trap nastiness.
Soft Capped Defense/Stealth/Stealth IO plus Seeker Drones + Protector Bot Seeker Drones makes you almost universally unhittable and unseeable (even in PvP).
My Bots Traps can solo 8 Player Spawns of lvl 54 Bosses because of the things I've said above. He can wade into seas of Freakshow and kill 20 or more at a time thanks to Poison Trap + Immob + AoE Burn.
My typical pull combo:
Drop 3-4 red inspirations into my Boss Bot.
Place Seeker Drones in the middle of a distant mob.
Tap Defensive Follow so my Bots don't fire yet.
Seeker Drones go off, pulling the entire mob into melee range (the -percep buff makes them run to you instead of firing at range) -OR- Jump in AFTER Seekers, letting them clump on my summons to herd.
Place Acid Mortar (so defense of the incoming mob is lowered, ensuring my AoE Immob will hit consistently).
Tap Defensive Follow once more, letting the spawn come fully into melee range. Around this time my Protector Bots' Seeker Drones will go off, further debuffing the spawn.
Lay a Poison Trap, queuing up AoE Immob on a Middle Target.
Poison Trap goes off, ensuring mobs don't run out of AoE burn, AoE Immob also goes off, stopping runners not affected by the poison trap, if any.
Lay Caltrops in the middle of the spawn to slow runners and deal proc damage (which often finishes off runners).
Repeat AoE Immob Cast, keeping mobs in burn while they're AoE'd by the Bots.
Lay a trip mine at the feet of any rooted survivors.
Rinse... Repeat.
Using this strategy I can kill a 16 Mob Spawn of +4 Lieutenants in under 25 seconds from when I first cast Seeker Drones. When done right the combo works on almost any kind of spawn.
Below is my current build for my Bots/Traps. It's very expensive, but I can destroy almost anything in both PvE and PvP. The only thing to ever get a decisive victory on me one on one in the arena is a Thugs/Pain MM, and that was more of an incredibly slow war of atrition than an outright defeat.
EDIT:
This build Soft Caps both You (the MM) and all of your pets (with the exception of your Protector Bots, I believe, but they don't pull nearly as much of their own aggro). At first glance you may miss the softcapping, remember that your Protector Bots will buff you along with all of your pets. This shield buff plus your FF Generator will soft cap both you and them.
Soft capping is THE most important part of the build. What I did was soft cap first, and then I accumulated the needed infamy with the toon for everything else after that key piece was done. You'll be shocked at how well both you and your bots survive once you finish the defensive slotting for the build.
Keep in mind that you are completely soft capped while using seekers, laying traps, and using most of your powers, but using your Mu Mastery Immob will suppress your Stealth, leaving you at 42%+ Def Ranged/AoE but keeping you at 47%+ for Melee Defense. Thus, it is important to use Electric Fences in Melee Range when you get to that part of the combo. Mobs hit by your Seekers are generally unable to use ranged attacks on you because of -Percep.
Most notably this build can solo Archvillains and Heroes. I've solo'd all of the AVs in the LRSF (except the last mission) with this toon. Poison Trap supplies the needed -regen. Cast Seekers every time they're up and the AV will hit nothing every time it swings. The few times it hits your Triage Beacon will soak it up.
Caltrops are amazing. Use them. I have 6 dmg procs in mine. They do so much damage I can sometimes finish off a spawn just by casting them.
Build Updated! (Sep 19, 2009)
Benefits:
Force Feedback was doing nothing slotted in a pet after pet recharge changes, so the slot was moved
Lockdown Proc now slotted in Poison Trap
Positional Defense now fully softcapped when Stealth is suppressed
Cost:
.04 (2.5%) Endurance Efficiency (1 of 2 End Red Slots in Acrobatics removed)
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