Quote:
If by 'use' you mean sell stuff on, then you're right.|
Originally Posted by Lakanna
I stand by it: if you aren't using the market, you cannot make any serious progress in getting a character IO'd.
|
If by 'use' you mean engage in marketeer gamesmanship, you're dead wrong.
I have a couple of characters with "good" IO builds that got ALL their inf from playing and selling and none at all from market games.
It takes more play time than marketeering, but it works just the same.
Quote:
| Goat hit it on the head a while back: I'm an idealist. I thinkt hat IO's SHOULD be customization options open to the vast majority of people, not rewards that only the very highest tier of players should be able to get. |
Compared to WoW, our loot system is positively egalitarian.
Quote:
| And I especially disagree that only those who spend time working the market are the only ones who can afford the top-end sets. |
Quote:
| But I dislike people trying to describe the market as something that benefits all players, or something that, if you aren't using it, you don't deserve the shinies. It's a great system for what it does, but what it does is NOT "make IO's accessible to most players." It's more "concentrate wealth, including INF and top-tier IO's, to those players most able to use the market effectively." THAT is what the market is good for. |
If you want the game to hand people their IO rewards, then no it isn't what you're looking for.
But from the perspective of a dev looking for a timesink/minigame the market is EXTREMELY, almost comically accessible. And to make it even easier on the players they added merits and tickets.
I'm not sure what you're after- Positron in a Santa suit passing out free purples in Atlas?
Quote:
| Maybe that's how the devs want things. |
If they wanted a store, they'd have made a store.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
r/e ultra super rare GOLD SETS:
if the devs added a recipe that would, let's say, add a customizable glow to your costume, and they made it ultra super duper rare....it would be the most expensive thing in the game in spite of conferring zero performance benefit.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
And here we have a concept character born.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
ultra super duper rare
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Quote:
I want them to put the hero-con costume options in as ultra-rare recipe drops. Make them one every hundred purple? Every thousand purples? Make it possible to get them but very improbable. I'd put in bids for them, even though they confer no actual performance benefit as you note.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
r/e ultra super rare GOLD SETS:
if the devs added a recipe that would, let's say, add a customizable glow to your costume, and they made it ultra super duper rare....it would be the most expensive thing in the game in spite of conferring zero performance benefit. |
RagManX
"if the market were religion Fulmens would be Moses and you'd be L. Ron Hubbard. " --Nethergoat to eryq2
The economy is not broken. The players are
Quote:
And I would cheer the devs on with this. Good on them, make MORE recipes like this. Pure vanity items, that confer no in-game benefit, but advertise that you have INF to burn? Actually from my perspective a phenomenal idea. Also: Recipes that alter the way a power works. I think that most of the procs would have been great as ultra-rares, allowing people to make their powers do unusual things, but to be honest, most of the procs, except for damage, really aren't all the impressive.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
r/e ultra super rare GOLD SETS:
if the devs added a recipe that would, let's say, add a customizable glow to your costume, and they made it ultra super duper rare....it would be the most expensive thing in the game in spite of conferring zero performance benefit. |
I'd love to see more expensive, nice, and "useless" items in the game. Weapon skin recipes, more temp power recipes (think empowerment buffs- I guarantee if they made a mag 4 mez protection temp power, it would get expensive in a hurry). Things that are either cosmetic or consumable. (This makes me wonder if they could create emote recipes? Temp Power - <xxxx> emote (recipe).)
This is a great idea Nethergoat! I'm all for it.
119088 - Outcasts Overcharged. Heroic.
Quote:
Fail reading comprehension. I CAN GET whatever I want. Honestly, I play enough that if I consolidated cash between characters, I could probably still afford to purple out another villain, and I have enough on-hand to work any hero into a dream build. What -I- can or can't do isn't my point. I don't believe that the market, or the game, is well-served by that "sticker shock" of people hitting the market for the first time. Anyone who looks, and says "I'll never be able to afford that," and ignores the market thereafter, is a person who COULD have been a participant, but was discouraged.|
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
i think lakanna suffers from the same sickness that the OP has... it is the dreaded IWANTITNAO...
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We know that the forums are a very small part of the playerbase. For every post like the OP, how many people do NOT come here and post, just walk away from the market? How many people WOULD be using it if they didn't think that it was pointless. Yes, educating people who come to the market forum is great, but it's also trying to empty the ocean with a paper cup. What is everyone who walked away from the market could be converted into regular buyers and sellers? And what would it take to make the average player, one who never visits the forums, WANT to use the market?
119088 - Outcasts Overcharged. Heroic.
Quote:
Alas, they already did it with costume drops and caved in when the crybabies went mental.|
Originally Posted by Lakanna
And I would cheer the devs on with this. Good on them, make MORE recipes like this. Pure vanity items, that confer no in-game benefit, but advertise that you have INF to burn?
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So they're hosed either way.
If the 'high end loot' is cosmetic, the 'casual gamers' cry because they'll "never" get their Fairy Wings.
If the 'high end loot' is functional, the 'casual gamers' cry because they'll "never" get their purples.
I was vehemently opposed to liberalizing costume drops and would love to see more super rare stuff added to the game, functional and otherwise. But I'm afraid the costume drop debacle made them gun-shy. Purples are the only rare thing in the game they haven't (so far) liberalized the availability of.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
And that person is not the target audience of high end loot.|
Originally Posted by Lakanna
Anyone who looks, and says "I'll never be able to afford that," and ignores the market thereafter, is a person who COULD have been a participant, but was discouraged.
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I have zero sympathy for some shmoe who looks at the absolute top tier rewards, ignores everything else and gives up before they start.
The market provides great 'equipment' across all price ranges.
SO's still work great and are dirt cheap. Generics work great and can be had for deep discounts from crafters. Frankenslotting IO's works great and can be done for a few million inf, which ANYONE can earn. There are a lot of very good sets with highly useful bonuses you can get cheap.
Yes, 'good' sets are expensive, yes they require special effort to attain if you want to kit out your whole build with them.
Are they out of reach?
Only for quitters and crybabies.
You're arguing for people who won't lift a finger to help themselves.
It'd be nice if every driver in the country could have their pick of a BMW, Ferarri, Mercedes or Lamborghini.
But they can't.
It isn't unfair, it's just how the system works.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
Good questions, really.|
Originally Posted by Lakanna
We know that the forums are a very small part of the playerbase. For every post like the OP, how many people do NOT come here and post, just walk away from the market? How many people WOULD be using it if they didn't think that it was pointless. Yes, educating people who come to the market forum is great, but it's also trying to empty the ocean with a paper cup. What is everyone who walked away from the market could be converted into regular buyers and sellers? And what would it take to make the average player, one who never visits the forums, WANT to use the market?
|
I was introduced to this game early this year by a friend who has been playing for years.
To this day, he still goes the TO/DO/SO route on all of his characters and hasn't dabbled hardly at all with IO's and he likes it that way. After years of play, he can do the level-to-level upgrades quickly, knowing exactly what to do and where to go to do it with a minimum of time. His play time is like 95% play, 5% TO/DO/SO upgrades and inspiration pickups and close to 0% IO buying/creation time, visiting the market occasionally on the way only to drop off things that might sell higher on the market.
On the other hand, as a new player coming into the game after invention origin enhancements were introduced, I've gone IO generics and frankenslots and full sets almost from get go, even with the lowest level characters. My time is more like 50% play, and 50% combination market play and IO buying/crafting time. And I also spend more time reading these threads and the set tables/descriptions in Paragon wiki.
I would venture to say that there is still a large player base who still stick with the old TO/DO/SO paradigm. Why? Perhaps because it's what they're used to and they really don't want to fool around with IO's or the market any more than they have to. It's not difficult to generate enough inf during play and selling drops to vendors or the market to fully slot a character with SO's in the later levels, so inf isn't an issue either. It still surprises me to check the description of many characters even within the markets and see so many without a single set bonus under their power lists.
It's a trade off, really, of time vs desired results. Some folks seem to prefer to spend almost all of their time in play and do things the pre-invention way rather than invest additional time into learning what all the IO sets are and how to slot them as well as learn the some of the intricacies of working the market. People like most of you here in the market forum (as well as me) like spending our time with researching the market and/or IO builds in addition to the time we play.
You're probably right, too, in suggesting that there is a base of players who'd *like* to enter into the IO set / market game, but aren't quite sure how to go about it, nor are sure how much time they would need to invest in addition to play time, and that's where these forums (and Paragon wiki) provide an invaluable resource if they wish to do so.
Someone can complain about vet rewards now, just to increase the troll factor.
I start the game with three extra attack powers, I can get my travel power at level 6, and I can look like this:
NYER NYER NYER!!!
Quote:
Seems to me this line of thinking leads to removing the market completely.|
Originally Posted by Lakanna
I don't believe that the market, or the game, is well-served by that "sticker shock" of people hitting the market for the first time. Anyone who looks, and says "I'll never be able to afford that," and ignores the market thereafter, is a person who COULD have been a participant, but was discouraged.
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No matter how it's couched, I'm not going to be sympathetic to the suggestion of watering down the system (even more) to make it more accessible, and that's where you seem to be going. I think it's plenty accessible as it is.
Some people are discouraged? Okay. Some people are always going to be discouraged. So where do we draw the line? Are we to sink to the lowest common denominator? If not, how do we determine where the line's to be drawn? Because, no matter where we draw it, someone's going to be left out in the cold. The only way to completely avoid that is to make everything available through vendors. And at that point the market is dead.
But the thing is, the system is already entirely optional. I know some people don't like having that pointed out, but it's true. No one has to use the market. No one needs those IOs. At this point you can even completely outfit yourself with common IOs without using the market at all.
I believe that to be more than enough of a concession for those who are easily discouraged and have wrongly concluded--even in the face of loads of evidence to the contrary--that the market is "pointless".
Anything more than that, and you start seriously infringing upon those of us who weren't discouraged and took the time to figure the system out.
Basically, my impression is that you want to cater to those who threw their hands up in the air and walked away... at the expense of those of us who didn't. I don't find that even remotely fair or reasonable.
We were all, at one point or another, new to the market. But some of us realized, when you have a market, there's going to be high-end, expensive items on it. That just comes with the territory.
You can't dispense with that and still have a market.
People can use merits and tickets to buy almost any recipe. They can use tickets to buy any piece of invention salvage. They have open access to stores which sell enhancements that're more than sufficient for playing the game.
Honestly, I think that's enough. If someone wants more than this, I don't think it's unreasonable to say: well, if you want that quickly, you need to familiarize yourself with this system to get it.
The Cape Radio: You're not super until you put on the Cape!
DJ Enigma's Puzzle Factory: Co* Parody Commercials
Quote:
Well actually Goat they did nerf the amount of pool Cs coming into the market when they introduced merits especially with the save to buy program.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Alas, they already did it with costume drops and caved in when the crybabies went mental.
So they're hosed either way. If the 'high end loot' is cosmetic, the 'casual gamers' cry because they'll "never" get their Fairy Wings. If the 'high end loot' is functional, the 'casual gamers' cry because they'll "never" get their purples. I was vehemently opposed to liberalizing costume drops and would love to see more super rare stuff added to the game, functional and otherwise. But I'm afraid the costume drop debacle made them gun-shy. Purples are the only rare thing in the game they haven't (so far) liberalized the availability of. |
Then they put in tickets and nerfed the supply of purples, costumes, and recpec recipes. (Not intentionally but there were people in the closed beta [the ones of us that aren't their yes men] that told them what would happen and they turned a deaf ear.)
It's the reason that merit rewards keep getting bumped up and one of the reasons that they reduced the amount of garbage that drops from pool C by weighting it.
This issue saw the mega nerf to AE that now makes it "an interesting idea that failed in execution" with any luck by the time Going Rogue or at least I17 comes out they may have finally rebalanced AE to the point where it's about the same as running regular content.
This issue has also brought another (most likely unintentional) buff to merits with the Super Sidekicking system. Since merits are a time based reward setting your TF to -1 level mobs significantly shortens the defeat alls. Also having powers available that are 5 levels higher than the TF rating speeds things up greatly.
My coalition did a -1 level Posi today in an hour and 30 minutes and we weren't "really" trying to speed it. Having stamina available also makes a huge difference. I think if we built for it and really tried to speed it we could get it down to 60ish minutes.
We might just now be getting back to the level of supply (in my opinion apropriate level) we had during the I11 heyday of the market.
When they finally get around to merging the markets for GR (IMO they are about 7 issues behind on that) we might actually have a relatively stable market with a reasonable amount of supply. Provided of course the competing MMOs don't siphon off so much population that we fall down below critcal mass.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Quote:
Unfortunately, I doubt the devs view this as you describe it here and in the rest of your post. I fully expect the next round of merit reward updates to absolutely hammer things like Posi's TF. The median completion time is going to be much lower after this issue, and I expect they will modify the reward accordingly.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
This issue has also brought another (most likely unintentional) buff to merits with the Super Sidekicking system. Since merits are a time based reward setting your TF to -1 level mobs significantly shortens the defeat alls. Also having powers available that are 5 levels higher than the TF rating speeds things up greatly.
|
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
How do you define "working the market"?|
Originally Posted by Lakanna
And I especially disagree that only those who spend time working the market are the only ones who can afford the top-end sets.
|
If playing the game and selling my drops is working the market then I am guilty.
If not, then my warshade has over half his purples (some by drops, some by buying) is sitting on over 1 billion influence and I have many bids out for sets I want.
Everytime I get to 1.1 billion I just buy the next one in line and then go back to running missions.
So am I working the market to afford the top end sets? If not, then your assertion is wrong. If so then your definition is one I can never agree with.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Quote:
I think you forgot to mention you also get 5 free merits!|
Originally Posted by COTCaveHater
Someone can complain about vet rewards now, just to increase the troll factor.
I start the game with three extra attack powers, I can get my travel power at level 6, and I can look like this: NYER NYER NYER!!! |
And very soon more recipe, salvage and an additional market slot.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
The post above by perwira made me think about my approach to CoH. Considering that I'm one of the only regular posters in this forum who claims to have made heaps of in-game wealth just by "playing the game," I figure perhaps it would be instructive to explain just what that means.
The first thing I have to say is that, despite not thinking of myself that way, I am a patient player. I don't (just) mean in my approach to the market, either, but in my approach to my characters.
Before inventions, I used to create more alts. I actually disliked the idea of hitting 50 on my favorite characters, because I perceived there being nothing to do with them back then. It wasn't just a lack of end-game content, but rather a lack of goals for them to strive towards. All that changed in I9, and before it came out, my favorite characters had all hit 50 in preparation.
I don't PL characters of my own. I tend to solo them to 50, or at least 45+. Because of this, any character I get to 50 is one I really enjoy, because if I didn't enjoy it, I would stop playing it long before then. Because I really enjoy playing them, I am happy to keep playing them even at 50, so long as I have goals for them, and IOs are those goals.
But I don't have to jump feet first into the lap of ultimate power. I'm happy with an incremental approach. First, I don't invest in anything major until around the 40s, unless it's something like a unique or proc which will serve me well all the way through. My goal is a late-game build, so I don't want to invest much in a disposable build. What this results in is early "frankenslotting" builds that up my endurance, recharge and accuracy beyond SO levels, but pay little attention to set bonuses.
This is a bootstrapping process. "Frankenbuilds" let me hit more often, for less endurance, or save slots I wouldn't have for key powers. I can get more from my playtime for a character. I then use this investment to play the character more, achieving more in the play time than I could before. I use this to reap more rewards, the profits of which I then fold back into the character, one set at a time. Eventually I have a build which is the best I can make without purple sets. Usually, the character is now very powerful, and I can leverage that for another self-investment pass, where I start working towards purples. This can take a while. I've given individual characters a good month of pretty consecutive playtime to pay for their purples. I spend that time running TFs or soloing maps spawned for two (or more, in I16).
Just in case one reads an implication of it above, I'm not building farmers here. Just to give you an idea, when I want to farm my most efficient characters are Corruptors, Defenders and my one Nightwidow, so while I'm capable of it technically, I'm not paying off the house with it.
As a result of this approach to characters, I have created few new alts since I9, and many of my existing lowbies have languished at their I9 levels. My existing 50s and other 40+ characters have gotten the lion's share of my attention. I have leveled just one new character from 1-50 since I9, a Nightwidow created just before I13 launched. (She was 50 before I14 and a billionaire halfway through it. Thanks, AE!)
One final thing is that I tend not to share wealth between these characters. I frequently give new characters a seed of a couple of million from an existing character because I'm too lazy to bother earning it myself on the market. From then on, basically everything they earn is their own. The exception I make is with drops - I'll move drops between characters if one gets something I know I want for another, rather than selling it. Additionally, I'll use existing characters to "twink" new ones with things like low-level Miracles or LotGs. I do this because I am utterly spoiled by the capabilities of my IOd out level 50s, and I want a touch of it on my lowbies, too.
So there you have it. When I come here and tell people that purples are alternate progression for 50s and not something they should just expect to fall into once they get to 50, I'm very much practicing that sermon. I'm impatient in many ways, but character development isn't one of them.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I for one, am glad that most people can't look like that |
Originally Posted by COTCaveHater
[...]and I can look like this:
NYER NYER NYER!!! |
@Uberguy: Barring the purpling part, my approach to characters is rather similar. However, I like to dabble in the market on all toons because I find it an entertaining minigame of sorts*. I usually get my characters to 20-24 and then decide whether to keep them or not. If I do I frankenslot them up, grab the more useful uniques (steadfast +def for /SRs or the Perf shifter for end hogs, for instance) and then play them to the high 30s. After that I usually have enough saved up to go for mid-range IO sets like Crushing Impacts or Thunderstrikes. After that they continue on to 50 and get further tweaks if I still like them enough.
I do make a horrible amount of alts, though.
*I'm currently working on hitting the billion inf mark. I don't care for purples and all my alts are self-sufficient. The only reason I'm doing it is because I find it a fun excercise, much like getting badges. I honestly have no idea what I'm going to do with the money once I get there.
Quote:
True. But even though it was a nerf to supply it was still a sop to complainers- now they could grind for their shiny instead of buying it. The sorts who were complaining were unlikely to notice that it was taking them longer to get the goodies than if they'd just earned inf and bought them on the market. |
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Well actually Goat they did nerf the amount of pool Cs coming into the market when they introduced merits especially with the save to buy program.
|
Creating the appearance of making something more available while nerfing supply is some nice jiu jitsu!
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
This bothers me, a bit. Purples, I don't need. The bonuses, while attractive, are not what I am looking for.|
Originally Posted by dave_p
Seriously, if I were poor & lazy, I'd be a lot more bothered by Kinetic Combats going for 75M than Armageddon's for 250M. Good thing I'm neither.
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Fortunately, KC's can be bought outright with merits. So I hoard merits and buy, not random rolls, but what I need. And now that everything gives XP to non-50s, I can farm merits on my characters while they level as well.
I still think that the workers need to organize themselves, cast off false consciousness, and seize the means of production. I'm working on translating this vision into something that works in game.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Quote:
As long as you realize that you can often obtain what you are looking for more efficiently by using random rolls, selling the results (assuming you don't need it yourself), and using that income to buy what you actually do want.*|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
So I hoard merits and buy, not random rolls, but what I need.
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I know based on your past posts that you may know this and be avoiding it because you find it objectionable. I just wanted to point it out, just in case.
*There are items for which this is not true in general. What they are varies over time and what side you're on (hero or villain). Basically by definition, they are usually the most expensive things on the market which you can also buy with merits, often by a wide margin.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Unless people are saying that everyone should have everything, then both the market lovers and the market haters agree that there should be some form of rarity. Currently, we have the market to help determine who gets what, because with the current system it's not possible for people to get every possible thing.
The appropriate question, I think, is if you are going to do away withe market system as a way to distribute rare and semi-rare goods, what system is going to be in it's place? Waiting lists? Completely random distribution?
I'd love to hear the answer.
This is meant with all due respect, and for everyone who might agree with this (The original poster's) point of view:
1. Please read and learn about "Supply and Demand."
2. Please be sure you understand #1.
3. Enjoy life just a little bit more now that you have completed #1. Forumites will do the same.
If anything, I think what you REALLY want is for the drop rate to be increased, if what you want is the prices to go down. Of course, that is also wrought with difficulties.
Have a great day.
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
Quote:
I have taken to random rolling, usually on the character I typically use to run AE content, with AE tickets. The tickets are easier to replace, and that can be done solo, on a character built to run AE content. Still, much of the random roll stuff ends up getting crafted and saved rather than sold. I still prefer to have IOs banked than inf, even if inf is regaining some of its value versus salvage.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
There are items for which this is not true in general. What they are varies over time and what side you're on (hero or villain). Basically by definition, they are usually the most expensive things on the market which you can also buy with merits, often by a wide margin.
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And the things I tend to really want (sets of Kinetic Combat, especially not including the Chance for Knockdown proc) or consider essential to quality of life (Numina and Miracle uniques) --- these things usually fall into that category; it takes less time and bother running a few evenings of task forces than it would to farm up the inf to buy them on the market. And after the collapse of AE powerlevelling and their expanded usefulness in general levelling, task forces are easier to get started now.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Quote:
Well, they should realize that you can't have everything starting off. It's like walking past a Ferrari dealership and despairing you'll never be able to afford a car.
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Originally Posted by Lakanna
I don't believe that the market, or the game, is well-served by that "sticker shock" of people hitting the market for the first time. Anyone who looks, and says "I'll never be able to afford that," and ignores the market thereafter, is a person who COULD have been a participant, but was discouraged.
|
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
My characthers level a lot easier than pure empaths. Perhaps you should siphon off some of my experience to give towards the slower movers, eh?