Elec has excellent AoE (Chain Induction, Thunder Strike, Lightning Rod, and Jacob's Ladder to an extent) but it somewhat lacks solid single-target damage. The Stalker version's better in that respect while still maintaining good AoE, but if you want to kill lots of stuff fast Elec is fine.
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"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Actually I would disagree with it having excellent AOE. I would say it has OK AOE. Only due to the recharge of Lightning Rod. Also Thunder Strike has a smaller than normal radius and its AOE damage is smaller than most. Jacobs ladder is ok but constantly lining up the narrow cone can get old after a while. I never took Chain Induction so maybe thats what my build was missing. But with the powers I did take I never felt it killed as fast as all the Foot Stomp spammers out there.
Electric Melee has many AoEs which tend to have a strong ST focus, yet it's still the worst set for ST DPS and it's not the best at AoE either.
Also, Shield Charge vs. Lightning Rod.
Shield Charge has a much faster activation time. (1.5 vs. 2.57)
SC can be activated in the air. (Lightning Rod requires you to be on the ground)
SC deals its damage in the full 20' radius, meaning it wipes spawns much better. (LR deals its full damage only at a 3' radius, the rest is about half of that)
SC comes a tier earlier in the set. Tier 8 vs. Tier 9, and the Tier 8 is better. Also, the protective set has a better attack than the attack set? Awesome!
SC also has a taunt component (LR doesn't).
The only saving grace about Lightning Rod is that it looks cooler and deals energy damage. But unless you have the whole spawn in a 3' radius, dealing higher damage is unlikely.
As has been mentioned above - it's not the best for ST or AoE, and the sets that it's behind in AoE are also ahead of it for ST. I have a level 50 Elec/Elec/Mu, and find that most of my AoE damage is coming from Ball Lightning and Electric Fences.
Chain Induction's jumping issues were fixed, but the power still costs too much endurance with too high of a recharge for an AoE with max 5 targets that stops if it kills any of them. The bright side is that you can still (with enough recharge) use it to boost your single target damage, since it's far and away the best DPA in the set.
Lightning Rod has issues that Ethric went into, add to that the stupidly long recharge and low damage cap (+300% vs +750%), then stir in the fact that for the port to Scrappers and Tankers the base damage was modified so that the worst possible version is the one provided to villains... when I first saw the numbers on test for the Scrapper version I was hoping that was an all-AT change that would've had it doing roughly the same damage as Shield Charge to the 20' AoE and bonus damage to the 3' as a "fix" for it, but no. *sigh*
Jacob's Ladder is a small cone, 5 degrees wider than Shadow Maul with the same endurance cost and recharge with roughly 70% of the damage. But hey, it's a higher DPA attack than Havoc Punch, so you can use it for single target also!
Thunder Strike is far too slow of an animation, but at least the 18 second recharge means it only eats up roughly half of any attack chain that includes it.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Wait wait wait...so the Tanker and Scrapper versions were modified to do damage that respects their melee dmg mods? Okay, what about Stalkers? Are they still bogged down with a LR based on Brute mods? If so, that just ain't kosher...
| Lightning Rod has issues that Ethric went into, add to that the stupidly long recharge and low damage cap (+300% vs +750%), then stir in the fact that for the port to Scrappers and Tankers the base damage was modified so that the worst possible version is the one provided to villains... when I first saw the numbers on test for the Scrapper version I was hoping that was an all-AT change that would've had it doing roughly the same damage as Shield Charge to the 20' AoE and bonus damage to the 3' as a "fix" for it, but no. *sigh* |
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Let's be fair. I believe Elec Melee has better ST DPS than Spines. |
Originally Posted by Ethric
Electric Melee has many AoEs which tend to have a strong ST focus, yet it's still the worst set for ST DPS and it's not the best at AoE either.
Also, Shield Charge vs. Lightning Rod. Shield Charge has a much faster activation time. (1.5 vs. 2.57) SC can be activated in the air. (Lightning Rod requires you to be on the ground) SC deals its damage in the full 20' radius, meaning it wipes spawns much better. (LR deals its full damage only at a 3' radius, the rest is about half of that) SC comes a tier earlier in the set. Tier 8 vs. Tier 9, and the Tier 8 is better. Also, the protective set has a better attack than the attack set? Awesome! SC also has a taunt component (LR doesn't). The only saving grace about Lightning Rod is that it looks cooler and deals energy damage. But unless you have the whole spawn in a 3' radius, dealing higher damage is unlikely. |
Or were we just talking Brute Primaries?But yeah. Electric Melee's biggest strength comes in looking pretty.
I keep hoping they'll up the single target damage, but alas I don't think it will happen.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Wanted to ask the folks here if they were using IO's? I am working on a soft-capped Elec/SD and I am not having the same issues as some of the other folks posting here. Lightning Rod and Shield Charge both come back in well under a minute. My primary attack chain is LR > SC then clean up what is left if any. I was wanting to add a good single target attack to my build since I am noticing the lack of a big hitter in that category. Would one of the patron sets be the way to go? I don't mind if it is a ranged style attack, I just want to add 1 more good one for clean-up duty or taking down a boss faster.
Any suggestions would be great. I have been away from the villain game for quite a while, so the patron stuff is kind of a hazy memory.
Thanks!
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Just got back to this thread, so missed this before. Edit: Stalker Lightning Rod was apparently fixed in the most recent patch to test, but at rollout was using the same pet. Tanker Lightning Rod is a bit low (its roughly 0.79 vs 0.8) and the Scrapper version works out to a 1.125 modifier if you use the Brute version as 0.75. So yes, Stalkers are getting shafted in the deal (surprise surprise). When they announced the port initially I assumed that it would be like Shield Charge, and that all ATs would have the same pet summoned; when I saw the higher numbers on test just using the chat window I was hoping that they decided to buff Lightning Rod - a tier 9 in an attack set - so that it wasn't outclassed in every possible way except graphics by Shield Charge - a tier 8 in an armor set; the Scrapper version does slightly more damage than Shield Charge does to the full AoE, plus the 3rd tick on the small radius.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Wait wait wait...so the Tanker and Scrapper versions were modified to do damage that respects their melee dmg mods? Okay, what about Stalkers? Are they still bogged down with a LR based on Brute mods? If so, that just ain't kosher...
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Originally Posted by Nemesis_Prime
Wanted to ask the folks here if they were using IO's? I am working on a soft-capped Elec/SD and I am not having the same issues as some of the other folks posting here. Lightning Rod and Shield Charge both come back in well under a minute. My primary attack chain is LR > SC then clean up what is left if any. I was wanting to add a good single target attack to my build since I am noticing the lack of a big hitter in that category. Would one of the patron sets be the way to go? I don't mind if it is a ranged style attack, I just want to add 1 more good one for clean-up duty or taking down a boss faster.
Any suggestions would be great. I have been away from the villain game for quite a while, so the patron stuff is kind of a hazy memory. Thanks! |
My elec/elec/mu Brute uses IOs, and Lightning Rod is down to a relatively small recharge (just under 30 secs - I didn't bother for extremely high recharge on her, she just got what I had laying around). Every time I use it, it's damage capped due to Build Up.
However, consider this: using Super Strength, Foot Stomp is on a 20 second base recharge, and does its damage to the full AoE. The damage done by Lightning Rod to the full AoE is 94.54, compared to 59.23 for Foot Stomp. Due to the pet damage cap, Lightning Rod will do at most 378.16 to the whole AoE approximately once every 30 seconds; Foot Stomp will do that much at +538% damage approximately every 10, and at the damage cap will do 125.28 more. Yes, the AoE size is smaller (15' vs 20'), but Electric Melee has a small radius for the other AoEs. A single Kinetic will get you to those +damage numbers. And you'll still have your heavy single-target attack.
It's not close to the top in AoE damage in an externally-buffed situation, and it's barely close in a non-buffed situation. It has meager single target damage, as the only "good" DPA attack that can really be used in a chain is Chain Induction - which has a long recharge for what it actually does. It's a theme set, it's relatively endurance friendly (the two early single target attacks have a discount due to giving endurance back occasionally), and it does a damage type other than Smashing and Lethal, but if you're strictly comparing its numbers to other sets there's no reason whatsoever to take it, and any reason you may have had pre-Shields was certainly done away with since any set can have Shield Charge without giving up their single target damage to do so. And that's how it stacks up.
As for the lack of a big hitter, your best bet is to go with Gloom from Soul Mastery. It has a better DPA than anything available in Electric Melee, and only Lightning Rod and Thunder Strike (to the primary target) hit harder from ElM. If you like the electric look, Mu Lightning is better DPA than all of Electric Melee except for Lightning Rod and Chain Induction. Another thing to consider is that Jacob's Ladder is slightly better single target DPA than Havoc Punch, too - in addition to being a cone.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I started my patron arc last night and went with Mu Mastery. I kinda dig the electric thing, so I will add the ST attack from that set and if I can get enough slots in it, I will get a set of Thunderstrike in there to boost my defenses a bit more. It is very possible that when I am done, my defense to all positions is going to be around 50%. The biggest challenge will be having enough slots.
As for the physical comparison against footstomp and others, I don't sweat that part too much. To me, dead is dead. If they die by a little or they die by a lot, they aren't attacking me anymore. As long as my AoE combination does that and looks as cool as it does, I am a happy camper. I am going to try to add in Lightning Ball as a filler AoE. I can rotate that with Thunder Strike. When it is fury charged, it should do some nice damage (again, slots pending).
Thanks again, for the info.
OK, I've now gotten my Elec/ElecM tanker up high enough that I got to try the set. I'm unimpressed. It's a tepid combination of weak AOE with weak single target damage(yes Lightning Rod is cool, but on a 90 second timer, BFD). About the only really positive thing I can say about it is that there is some synergy in endurance drain that can offer some defense once I use power sink. However that's not an overly reliable means of self protection.
The set could really use some help.
The most annoying thing is the in game listing of chain induction makes it look like it's a heavy hitting power, but the average damage number is assuming it makes the leap. In actuality it doesn't hit all that hard. Feh.
Too many alts to list.
Roll up a ELM brute and then come back please. Stating Tanker ELM is weak is just stating the obvious, IMO.
Electric Melee is great, especially if you pair it with Electric Armor. I'm usually tanking with my Elec/Elec Brute, and any enemy that I focus on, usually loses all their endurance very quickly, which means if you focus fire on the enemy with the most dangerous set of powers, you can effectively lock them down. While it's true we don't do a whole lot of damage, per say, we have a good bit of utility and a lot of crowd control.
Not to mention, you'll never ever run into endurance problems, since most of your attacks have a chance of stealing endurance for yourself, and if you took Electric Armor too, you get Power Sink and Energize.
Speaking strictly from the Electric Melee perspective though, what we lack in single target damage and massive AoE damage, we make up for with crowd control and the ability to lock down one or more targets. The mileage you get out of it will vary depending on what you picked as the secondary powerset, though.
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Only Charged Brawl and Havoc Punch can restore back endurance in the Elec Melee line, and it's only happening at a 10% chance. The other attacks do not give back endurance at any chance.
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Originally Posted by Zeris00x
[snip] Not to mention, you'll never ever run into endurance problems, since most of your attacks have a chance of stealing endurance for yourself [snip]
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I know this might come as a shock to some, but it is possible to gauge comparative effectiveness of sets across ATs. I can get a feel for how ,say, SS(or stone melee, or fire melee, etc) is compared to Elec Melee by playing both on a tanker (and I've played most sets on tankers and brutes). |
Originally Posted by Clouded
Roll up a ELM brute and then come back please. Stating Tanker ELM is weak is just stating the obvious, IMO.
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It is not rocket science to realize that, yes, surprise surprise, a brute will do more damage with electric melee than a tanker. However that doesn't mean a brute can't do better with a different set.
Too many alts to list.
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While that's true, Charged Brawl and Havoc Punch are 'bread and butter' attacks, meaning you use them A LOT, or rather, you SHOULD be. That 10% chance seems lackluster on paper, but counting in the sheer number of times you use the power in a mission, it adds up and can count for something. The chances of it happening when you need it to are slim, sure, but if you're counting on a 10% sleep to proc off in a fight, it might be time to change powersets.
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Originally Posted by Ethric
Only Charged Brawl and Havoc Punch can restore back endurance in the Elec Melee line, and it's only happening at a 10% chance. The other attacks do not give back endurance at any chance.
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Do better? In ST? Sure. In potential AoE damage? Nope. I don't think there is another combo in this game, for Brutes, that will out damage BU + LR + TS. Toss in a Shield Charge and/or Patron AoE and you got one hell of a farming Brute*. I have no issues being proved wrong if someone has the math skills to support or refute my claim. |
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
However that doesn't mean a brute can't do better with a different set.
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*ELM gets a huge boon from +recharge or you can pair with a secondary like Shield Defense. Lightning Rod not up? Shield Charge + TS + Patron AoE. SC not up? LR + TS + Patron AoE.
I have a ELM brute at 50 and I'd be lying if I said I still play the set but it has nothing to do with the Primary and everything to do with the secondary, Dark. I just don't like Dark all that much on Brutes.
Lastly, if you're questioning the damage output of a ELM Tanker...why didn't you post in that forum?
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OK, time to prove you wrong then. Let's compare to War Mace, since I happen to like that one. |
Originally Posted by Clouded
Do better? In ST? Sure. In potential AoE damage? Nope. I don't think there is another combo in this game, for Brutes, that will out damage BU + LR + TS. Toss in a Shield Charge and/or Patron AoE and you got one hell of a farming Brute*. I have no issues being proved wrong if someone has the math skills to support or refute my claim.
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Electric melee has four AOEs. Two are many target ones, two are five target.
Jacobs ladder 8 s recharge 62.56 damage to up to 5 targets. Hard to get a whole lot in there because of the small arc(50 degrees) and reach(7'). Nice short recharge though, which is atypical of electric melee. It's one of the better performers really even as a single target attack since the rest of the set is full of slow animations.
Thunder Strike- here's the bread and butter AOE. 10 target maximum, 7' radius and 40.04 in actual AOE damage. It does do more to the initial target, but we're talking AOE here. Recharge is 18 seconds (and the animation really sucks at 3.3 seconds).
Chain Induction- Now that it's been fixed, it's a fair AOE, kinda. I have to say waiting a long time for a pretty meh power like this is rather silly though. Again you have heavier damage to the first target and some carried over to others. 5 target maximum, easy targeting since the jump takes care of that. AOE damage is just 38.93, which is nothing to write home about. Recharge is 14 seconds.
Then we get to the 'crowning glory' of the set, Lightning Rod. This power has the stupidly long recharge of 90 seconds coupled with the strange effect of doing most of it's damage in a tight radius. Outer radius is huge though (20') which is nice.
55.61 damage close in
77.8 to outer radius.
So in effect, it's like the other AOEs in the set which try to enhance single target work for no apparent reason. The one big plus of this is the 16 target max.
Ok, how about War Mace:
Whirling Mace
46.71 damage to up to ten targets in an 8 foot radius. This is on a 14 second recharge. Thus you do more damage to a bigger area than thunder strike, with four seconds less of recharge. Easy win for war mace.
Shatter
Ok, we have a narrow cone attack here, but roughly the same as Jacob's ladder (45 degrees for this vs 50 for JL), however the radius is longer, so you probably get more targets in with this. Damage 95.09, which is very nice. Recharge is 12 seconds. This seems to fit the formula with JL, doing about ~50% more damage for 50% more recharge.
Just to be a math geek we'll compare areas: JL 21 sq ft.
Shatter: 25 sq ft
oh, and for the full circle of TS vs WM it's 154 sq ft for TS and 201 sq ft for WM.
Then we have Crowd Control, 67.15 damage to up to 10 targets in a 180 degree arc with a 12 second recharge and 8' radius. (area is 100 sq feet)
Let's compare the damage over a period of time(say 5 minutes) with each hitting the maximum number of targets. Only one target in LR will get max damage however.
Electric melee- JL- 37 activations for 5 targets and 62.51 damage. Total is 11730.
TS- 16 activations for 10 targets and more on the single target. 695 for that one target, and 40.04 for the 10 total which gives 6670. So 7369 damage.
Chain Induction: So 21 activations for 5 targets with 54 damage on the first and 39 on the rest. So this comes to 4243 damage.
Lightning Rod: you can pop this off 3 times. Damage will be 56 damage on one target, and 78 on the other 15. Total damage is 4346 (ooh barely edged out Chain induction).
Total: 27688 damage.
Now War Mace:
Whirling Mace 21 activations for 46.71 damage to 10 targets. This comes to 10009 damage.
Shatter: 25 activations for 95.09 damage to 5 targets. This comes to 11886 damage.
Crowd Control 25 activations for 67.15 damage for 10 targets. This comes to 16787 damage.
Total: 38682
Thus War Mace is doing about 40% more damage over time.
If the numbers look a bit funny, I rounded off in the sentences above, but didn't in the calculator. This was a constant for both sets, so again a wash.
This comparison is also probably more kind to electric melee than it should be since the best performer, Jacob's Ladder, will almost never hit five targets. I don't know if I've ever nailed more than four and I herd things up to optimize this. I do consistently hit 10 with whirling mace and crowd control however (and thunderstrike for that matter). Now I suppose I could add in more damage for LR since in theory the higher small radius damage could hit more than one, but even if I gave it to all 16 targets, it wouldn't change things in the big picture by much. (2k damage, which still leaves the set well behind WM).
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| *ELM gets a huge boon from +recharge or you can pair with a secondary like Shield Defense. Lightning Rod not up? Shield Charge + TS + Patron AoE. SC not up? LR + TS + Patron AoE. |
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I have a ELM brute at 50 and I'd be lying if I said I still play the set but it has nothing to do with the Primary and everything to do with the secondary, Dark. I just don't like Dark all that much on Brutes. Lastly, if you're questioning the damage output of a ELM Tanker...why didn't you post in that forum? |
Too many alts to list.
Oh, and i forgot to mention that war mace also beats electric melee like a rented mule when it comes to single target work. Overall it out performs it to a degree which makes it look like it's standing still.
Too many alts to list.
I remember when that set first came on line it was disparaged as sub par. It had a broken power and wasn't particularly strong in any area. Is this still the case? I know Chain Induction was fixed finally, but did this have enough of an impact to move the set from the status of lacking?
Too many alts to list.