City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

I have a sticky idea

Bill Z Bubba

By Bill Z Bubba,
Posted on: 2009-09-04 11:52 in Scrappers

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamMasterJMS View Post
Understand that Werner is a relative newb
You do know that Werner as been playing since beta? Just because he wasn't posting on the fourms does mean he is a somewhat of newb. You don't need to post on the fourms to know what you are talking about and it has nothing to do with how long you play and how long you have been making builds.

"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"- Chesty Puller US Marine Corps

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenPrey View Post
You do know that Werner as been playing since beta? Just because he wasn't posting on the fourms does mean he is a somewhat of newb. You don't need to post on the fourms to know what you are talking about and it has nothing to do with how long you play and how long you have been making builds.
Thanks, and true, but in the context of this thread, I actually AM a relative newb. Before I9, I hadn't even bothered learning how the game worked. I wasn't even lurking on the forums. Only with the introduction of IOs did the game become NUMERICALLY interesting to me, so that's really when I started paying attention, learning how the game really worked, and actually planning out builds.

Back in the old days, I did have a fully Hamio'd Assault Rifle/Devices blaster that was pretty decent. A lot of the guesses I made about how to optimize him turned out to be correct. But from a numerical standpoint, no, I didn't know what I was doing.

"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamMasterJMS View Post
Umbral just recently started posting builds.
Actually, I'd been posting builds for a while. While I hadn't been around since beta (I started about 5 months after release; I was a console gamer primarily before then), I was still posting builds and crunching numbers pretty soon after I started. The big issue is that, before ED and IOs, there really wasn't much point to posting builds. It was rather obvious that what to put where and all that limited you was generally budget or playtime (re: HOs, back in the day). IOs just made top end builds have substantial potential differentiation so there was point to posting them and discussing them more than once per Issue (or more than once per year, in the case of some power sets that were largely ignored).

 

Posted

Werner, I noticed you have a Dark Melee toon. can you post your power picks and slotting? Curious to see what you went with.

Thanks

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaheroe View Post
Werner, I noticed you have a Dark Melee toon. can you post your power picks and slotting? Curious to see what you went with.
Well, sure, but it's pretty out of date – I12 sets but taking into account the I13 changes to Dark Melee. No travel power and no Shadow Maul. Should be able to add those without compromise these days due to the good travel power and AoE sets.

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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks

 

Posted

Interesting build and quite different then what I expected. but I like your slotting choices.

and with I16 you can dust him off and change his laser beams color to match the dark theme

 

Posted

the idea seems kind'a redundant to me, as the guides useually have them in 'em and the boards are already polluted with builds so as it is

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbid Star View Post
the idea seems kind'a redundant to me, as the guides useually have them in 'em and the boards are already polluted with builds so as it is
It is but until Werner or Umbral, or the handful of others who KNOW what is happening at the code level writes a guide, at least I'll get a chance to see what they are playing.

A lot of guides are, "This is what I did and had fun doing" type of write ups. Which is good but a little lacking in hard numbers to get the point across.

 

Posted

Anything I know about how the code works I learned from Arcanaville and others. Lord knows I don't usually try to figure this stuff out myself. I did a bit with required recharge, but the result we got was “it's very close to what we all assume it is”, so I didn't try to get any more specific than that. Kind of a shame, really, since we toss around figures like “that requires 234% recharge” when we're not actually as certain as we act like we are. I'd love to be certain, or to know that it's really 232% or 236% or whatever it is. Maybe it's something I should try to nail down some day. Maybe some day the devs will just tell us when powers start recharging and when they must be recharged by to use them.

"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaheroe View Post
It is but until Werner or Umbral, or the handful of others who KNOW what is happening at the code level writes a guide, at least I'll get a chance to see what they are playing.

A lot of guides are, "This is what I did and had fun doing" type of write ups. Which is good but a little lacking in hard numbers to get the point across.
Really, if you just start making your own builds, then post them for advice, you'll learn this all for yourself. You will become more confident in your own builds (taking into consideration your own play style) than what you may find floating around these boards. Believe it or not, Werner's or Umbral's builds are probably not going to fit exactly what you want.

Not to say they (or anyone else) won't have slotting ideas that you never thought of, or wont be helpful, but it really is best to make your own and ask for advice if you are not real sure about something. Just think, you may just come up with something nobody else has thought of.

 

Posted

One thing about builds made by a number of the people on the Scrapper boards is that they're specifically designed around certain aspects of the game, most commonly extreme survivability and soloing AVs. And while a lot of the concepts used to achieve those goals are going to apply to every day gameplay, there are certain things those builds typically don't capitalize on that are important in normal gameplay. For example, Werner's lack of use of Shadow Maul. From a single target DPS standpoint, this is definitely sound but, in the course of an average Scrappers gameplay, you'll be facing mostly mixed groups and even bosses will usually die too quickly for an optimized DPS chain to matter.

Secondly, a lot of the self-sufficiency, inherent toughness and sustainable endurance usage that are packed into these builds are not necessarily the best thing for the "average" Scrapper. Often, you'll be on a team where you'll receive buffs to compensate for a lot of the shortcomings these builds eliminate. As such, you may be able to get away with 40s in defense instead of soft capping, due to the relative likelihood of someone on the team having -at least- Maneuvers.

I think people need to take a look at the builds and use them more as something to study to find out why people use certain sets rather than to just follow them blindly. Anyway, not sure where I'm going with this post but I just wanted to say that the builds aren't going to be useful to -most- people.

 

Posted

Quote:
From a single target DPS standpoint, this is definitely sound but, in the course of an average Scrappers gameplay, you'll be facing mostly mixed groups and even bosses will usually die too quickly for an optimized DPS chain to matter.
In any pickup group I've ever joined (and I PuG a lot), bosses are often the last to die. At most, there's sometimes one or two lieutenant alive, probably because they were on the side.

Same with buffs, I agree it's reasonable to assume there's a good chance there'll be some buffs, but to assume there will be buffs at all times, in range at all times, and build with that in mind is in my opinion a mistake, as you'll be in a bad spot when there isn't.

It might be different for people who only play in those teams who sit around until they have 8 members and specifically look for a tanker, a kin, an emp, and so on. It might be different for people who play in SG or friend teams only. I don't do that personally, and I'd question if these scenarios are really representative of the "average" gameplay.

The way I see it, build like you're solo and have to take on all the mobs and you'll never have any trouble. You might be X% slower at a specific task in a specific setting than other, more specialized builds, but you'll be fine at doing anything. On the other hand, build assuming you'll have specific buffs or a specific team set-up, and the day you won't have these things you're in trouble.

I agree with one part of your conclusion, and disagree with the other. It's best to understand the thought process behind the builds than just copypaste, obviously. I happen to think a character built for AV soloing will steamroll all PvE content as well - if there's something it can't do, I haven't run into it yet.

 

Posted


First I just want to point out the redundancy since Sucker Punch's already does everything that's being sought after (Builds seperated by AT, Primary/Secondary along with Global Submits, dates, ratings, comments, etc). It may not be as streamed and data-loaded as Mid's, but in an online format for mass consumption it does the job just fine.

As for going as far as setting up something like a forum section filled with build resources, again feeling a sense of redundancy. There's guides out there that cover a lot of what people look for insight on. They may not be all up to the same level of snuff, but when it comes down to it most should get the general concept. When people start coming down and knocking on individual doors for builds and assistance that's where the breakdown is. There shouldn't be five pages each week, almost on a rotating schedule, of people asking for help on "X/X" This or Y/Z" That when the basic help was only a single search off.

Even spoon feeding power-builds lacks merits 75% of the time. Werner, Shred, Powerforge, just tossing some of the more hounded AV builds that come to mind, all have builds that people come asking about. Some willingly share, others prefer to keep it reclusive to their needs. Even I felt that there may not be much worth in sharing prime-builds until I got over the fact that there wasn't much sense in my hoarding it. Even when we all share these power builds, most of the time no one takes the advice given and gimps themselves to floor because they'd rather have five power pool attacks than sticking to their primary. (Not a literal interpretation, just an example).

Really I just don't see the point in it. Too often find that when someone asks "Can I have ur uber buildz plz", they're really asking "Can I see what you did so I can say I don't like it and do whatever I planned on doing wrong the first time, anyway?" Everyone's intitled to their experimental, conceptual and tweaked builds, but what use is it for those of us who understand and can break down the game into numbers and builds when we'd otherwise just get turned aside. Most of the time we're better off just accepting the way things are and just come out of the shadows every once and a while and push a few small bits of advice here and there and introduce new concepts slowly over time. That's the way the dev's do it, and it's worked out so far

Yes, I'm totally playing the Old Man Card, waving my claws and screaming for you young whipper snappers to get off my lawn. Back in my day we didn't have Mid's or "Real Numbers" and we did just fine with our Single Origins. Now you all want Inventions and Data Mining!

Breaking it down to a single point: We could kick dirt into the wind all day long but in the end all the builds we could possibly throw at anyone will never amount to the same experience and knowledge earned by just opening the program and reading what's right there. Grab one of the spreed sheets that float around every so often for DPS/EPS/Attack Chain, plug in the numbers and roll the dice. I'd really hate to log into the game tomorrow and the first thing I see is two people arguing over the same sets because one has a Shred Monkey build and one has a Iggy Build.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again.

 

Posted

Reply to multiple people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Machine_Man_X View Post
Believe it or not, Werner's or Umbral's builds are probably not going to fit exactly what you want.
Yep. Builds are very specific to play style and budget. What do you plan to fight? What is your tolerance for endurance drain? What sort of balance between single-target and AoE damage are you looking for? Do you prefer to just hit the same three attacks over and over, or would that drive you completely nuts? Do you want to be a generalist or very good at one specific thing?

My builds suit me, but I do not play this game like most people. They're probably good builds for people who enjoy the same things, and there are a lot of those on the boards, but we're a small minority of the player base.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackBellatrix View Post
One thing about builds made by a number of the people on the Scrapper boards is that they're specifically designed around certain aspects of the game, most commonly extreme survivability and soloing AVs. And while a lot of the concepts used to achieve those goals are going to apply to every day gameplay, there are certain things those builds typically don't capitalize on that are important in normal gameplay. For example, Werner's lack of use of Shadow Maul. From a single target DPS standpoint, this is definitely sound but, in the course of an average Scrappers gameplay, you'll be facing mostly mixed groups and even bosses will usually die too quickly for an optimized DPS chain to matter.
Totally. I solo and I STILL hate that I don't have Shadow Maul. I LOVE Shadow Maul. But I designed that build specifically to solo AVs and NOTHING else. There is no compromise for practicality (like a travel power or exemplaring) or for more normal fighting (like Shadow Maul).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackBellatrix View Post
Secondly, a lot of the self-sufficiency, inherent toughness and sustainable endurance usage that are packed into these builds are not necessarily the best thing for the "average" Scrapper. Often, you'll be on a team where you'll receive buffs to compensate for a lot of the shortcomings these builds eliminate. As such, you may be able to get away with 40s in defense instead of soft capping, due to the relative likelihood of someone on the team having -at least- Maneuvers.
I agree completely. As an example, one of the biggest things is that a whole lot of these builds, mine included, are designed for no inspiration use. Who does that? Only crazy scrappers doing specific challenges. Even if the cool kids are tying one hand behind their back before jumping into a fight doesn't mean it's the SMART way to fight. Use inspirations. Keep inspirations in mind when designing your own builds unless you're one of us crazies.

If you use one of my builds for normal game play, other than the not dying part, which is always nice, you'll only do OK. That's it. Just OK. And you don't want to spend billions to do OK. You can do OK with SOs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihilii View Post
The way I see it, build like you're solo and have to take on all the mobs and you'll never have any trouble. You might be X% slower at a specific task in a specific setting than other, more specialized builds, but you'll be fine at doing anything. On the other hand, build assuming you'll have specific buffs or a specific team set-up, and the day you won't have these things you're in trouble.
And that's true too. One thing I like about these builds is that you can go anywhere and do anything. You don't care what you're fighting. You don't care about team composition. You'll always be fine. You might not match others damage output, and others may with buffs match your survivability, but you'll be fine.

And with I16 and custom difficulty levels, I think the extreme survivability builds become more interesting for general play. At the moment, when I'm running invincible missions on Sergei, I often turn off all of his toggles to make things more interesting. In I16, I can get the same level of challenge by simply cranking the difficulty level up to the max, and that's much more fun.

"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks

 

Posted

I don't think it's a good idea. If anyone is going to make a sticky about builds, i think it should be all the tips and tricks used to make those builds, not the builds themselves. I don't think it helps much to give a build and say "take this one, it's awesome !" because a build should reflect the playstyle of the owner, and we all have our own playstyle. At best a build should be a source of inspiration, not something to copy paste.

On the other hand, helping another player to make his own build and sharing the tips and tricks to do that looks a lore more helpful and productive i think. It's all a matter of point of view, i always pay attention to the build posted and it taught me a lot of things. However, i would never play some of the builds out there, they're most of the time the opposite of what i enjoy. So they're not fun builds nor "good" builds based on my criteria, but they're a good way to see how the other, more experienced players, slot their powers and what they do. Then i can learn and adapt, and i'm quite happy with the builds i can make now.

This game is all about customization, stealing another player's build feels like going through the menu and picking a pre-made costume at character creation. Sure, it looks decent, it fits well, and you can tweak the colors, but it lacks anything special and it has no personnality.

Dark armor lover.

The Claws/DA Scrapper guide.

 

Posted

Quote:
...i think it should be all the tips and tricks used to make those builds, not the builds themselves.
She may be on to something there. On the other hand, a lot of people aren't especially looking to learn how to make their builds, they want something made by someone else with the assurance that it's going to get the job done. Do not what you can have someone else do for you.

Quote:
...picking a pre-made costume at character creation. Sure, it looks decent, it fits well, and you can tweak the colors, but it lacks anything special and it has no personnality.
Hey! i changed the face and the scales on those characters too. They look more differenter than than the other random pre-made costumed heroes.

 

Posted

Speaking of builds, I got this build on Silence.... I can solo RWZ challenge easy, and have even taken on two groups at once.... but for some reason I can't solo a pylon at all.... So I wanted to post my build and get some input from everyone while you all are here. Go me!

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Posted

I16 cant come soon enough.

Of all my scrappers ill finally be able to tell whos the strongest.

Can my softcapped aidself claws/sr take on that maxed spawn.
How well will my kat/wp do with Just SO's? And will my kat/da do as good? And if so will my ma/da be able to do the same thing. Is it all cuz of divine avalanche?
How much *** will my dm/invuln brute kick?

Think of how much other awesomeness is comin next issue.

This game really does get better and better.

The community I believe has alot to do with that.

Look how awesome and humble Werner has been, THAT guy gets MY respect!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf View Post
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
Yeah, I like Blasters too.

 

Posted

Quote:
Speaking of builds, I got this build on Silence.... I can solo RWZ challenge easy, and have even taken on two groups at once.... but for some reason I can't solo a pylon at all.... So I wanted to post my build and get some input from everyone while you all are here. Go me!
Well looking at your build you can't solo a pylon because you don't have good DPS at all. You really only have 2 ST attacks with smite and Shadow punch. SL is slotting more for a heal, which is ok, so it's not really helping your DPS. You also don't have Midnight Grasp which is a big part of my attack chain. It is your biggest hitting and not to bad of DPS too.

The Best Dark Melee attack chain is MG/smite/SL/smite. That takes a lot of recharge to run so it is not for every one but if you run I just thinking of the top of my head right now MG/smite/Sp/SL/smite/Sp it should be good DPS too, and does not need as much recharge to run. Now Laser Beam Eyes and Energy torrent are ok but for DPS ie soloing a Pylon they suck Leaser Beam eyes should not be use in your ST attack chain that is going for DPS.

"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"- Chesty Puller US Marine Corps

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Novawulfe View Post
Speaking of builds, I got this build on Silence.... I can solo RWZ challenge easy, and have even taken on two groups at once.... but for some reason I can't solo a pylon at all.... So I wanted to post my build and get some input from everyone while you all are here. Go me!
I agree with BrokenPrey. Your problem with pylons comes from a lack of good single target attacks, and from Siphon Life being slotted for survivability.

And as he indicates, Laser Beam Eyes is no substitute single target attack. It is a set mule and a ranged power for pulling and finishing off runners. On my Dark Melee/Super Reflexes, I also use it in an alternate chain that spams Siphon Life faster when I'm badly hurt, but I'm losing some serious DPS when I do that. It's just better than not attacking. Not worth slotting an Achilles' Heel in, no matter how tempting that is on the surface.

You're at the edge of being able to run Smite -> Midnight Grasp -> Smite -> Siphon Life while Hasten is up. You could swap Shadow Punch for Midnight Grasp and shoot for that, as you then wouldn't have to lose any other powers. If you go that route, you need Midnight Grasp to recharge in 4.48 seconds, Smite in 2.11 seconds and Siphon Life in 4.6 seconds. You're already there on Smite and Siphon Life, but Midnight Grasp is going to be a challenge. Mind you, even if you miss it by a couple tenths of a second, it should still be a big improvement.

If you can find a power to drop, you may be better off with the chain BrokenPrey mentioned, Smite -> Shadow Punch -> Midnight Grasp -> Smite -> Shadow Punch -> Siphon Life. Need Smite to recharge in 3.16 seconds, Shadow Punch in 3.3 seconds, Midnight Grasp in 6.6 seconds, and Siphon Life in 6.73 seconds. The good news is that you won't lose much DPS with that chain, and you can sustain it while Hasten is down, which may mean losing no DPS at all or doing even better than the top chain in practice. The bad news is that it takes an extra attack, and that the Siphon Lifes are spread out a lot more. I'd personally go for the higher-recharge chain, but it's going to be tough on a budget.

As for Siphon Life, having it as a fast recharging heal is definitely part of your survivability. But it's such a critical power with so many components that need to be enhanced that it's one of the few powers I recommend frankenslotting to get some damage and accuracy out of it as well. I'll point you to this thread, which has a whole lot of good options for how to slot it for various goals and at various price points.

"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks

 

Posted

Ok thanks guys, I'll mold over it and get back to ya, I'll be in the "lab" experimenting if ya need me.... XD Frankinsloting. love it.

After the advise and the experimenting:

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ok, got Midnight Grasp down to 4.78. Is that enough, or well I need to try for lower?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Novawulfe View Post
ok, got Midnight Grasp down to 4.78. Is that enough, or well I need to try for lower?
Yeah, that's enough to run the attack string seamlessly, but you're not going to be able to run that attack string for very long. You'll be eating 3.5 end/sec running that attack string on top of eating up 1.16 end/sec. Assuming you get the +end accolades, you're only recovering 3.2 end/sec. With a single target for Dark Consumption, you'd then add an extra .395 end/sec, so you'd still have a 1.065 end/sec deficit (re: 103 seconds before you run out of endurance from full).

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umbral View Post
Yeah, that's enough to run the attack string seamlessly, but you're not going to be able to run that attack string for very long. You'll be eating 3.5 end/sec running that attack string on top of eating up 1.16 end/sec. Assuming you get the +end accolades, you're only recovering 3.2 end/sec. With a single target for Dark Consumption, you'd then add an extra .395 end/sec, so you'd still have a 1.065 end/sec deficit (re: 103 seconds before you run out of endurance from full).
Ok, I replaced some of the IOs to include end redux, and lost only lost a little dam from MG and a little acc from SL. got MG to use only bout 7 end per shot, and SL to 8 end per shot. For the difference of end gain and drain, I took out OWS and acro, and put in conserve power and physical perfection. I used the equation I think you used and figured my end drain compared to end gain and I think it equals without using conserve.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celidya View Post
i think it should be all the tips and tricks used to make those builds, not the builds themselves. I don't think it helps much to give a build and say "take this one, it's awesome !" because a build should reflect the playstyle of the owner, and we all have our own playstyle. At best a build should be a source of inspiration, not something to copy paste.

On the other hand, helping another player to make his own build and sharing the tips and tricks to do that looks a lore more helpful and productive i think. It's all a matter of point of view, i always pay attention to the build posted and it taught me a lot of things. However, i would never play some of the builds out there, they're most of the time the opposite of what i enjoy. So they're not fun builds nor "good" builds based on my criteria, but they're a good way to see how the other, more experienced players, slot their powers and what they do. Then i can learn and adapt, and i'm quite happy with the builds i can make now.
I agree,
The things I have been the most greatful for on the Scrapper boards is the Ubers sharing the Build smarts they have gained.
I am just beginning to use Mids and try and make an uber build but I have already learned a great deal from Umbral, Powerforge, Werner, Prey, John Printemps, Bill and others who took the time to explain some of the thinking that goes into how to build.

When I see a build critique, the thing that matters (to me) most is not the heres what I'd do instead, it's the Here's Why.

Feel The Burn