Kheldian Epic Power Pools?


AlienOne

 

Posted

So, does anyone think we'll ever see a either a Kheldian-based Epic power pool or at the very least ever have the option of letting Kheldians pick from the available hero epic pools? VEATs get their Patron Power Pools the same as normal villains so it seems kind of odd to leave Kheldians out. Something like Luminous/Ebon Mastery would be interesting. Of course, I do realize that Kheldians are widely seen as different from the VEATs and are also believed to be more powerful but I still don't think leaving them out of the EPP selection is a good idea, especially with the game evolving as it is.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Sol View Post
So, does anyone think we'll ever see a either a Kheldian-based Epic power pool or at the very least ever have the option of letting Kheldians pick from the available hero epic pools? VEATs get their Patron Power Pools the same as normal villains so it seems kind of odd to leave Kheldians out. Something like Luminous/Ebon Mastery would be interesting. Of course, I do realize that Kheldians are widely seen as different from the VEATs and are also believed to be more powerful but I still don't think leaving them out of the EPP selection is a good idea, especially with the game evolving as it is.

They already have their Epic Power Pools, they're just already built into the set. :P


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Haetron View Post
They already have their Epic Power Pools, they're just already built into the set. :P
This.

If I had to guess, I would say that VEATS got a Patron Pool due to two factors:
1) Villains have an arc that is needed to get one, and it would be odd to have villains who do not get that arc.

2) It was decided that it was a poor decision to include Kheld PPs into the normal Kheld set as it confuses people who are expecting them.



 

Posted

The only kind of powers we are missing are shields and debuffs but if we got shields then people would expect us to all take that power (And I hate casting shields), and the debuffs would probably end up being useless (Like whatever it is in the tanker pyre mastery pool).

So I am perfectly happy without any additional power choices.


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Posted

So, am I the only one who thinks that EATs are the only ATs not getting any actual attention? True, it's great that we can scale mob sizes to 8 for those of us who can handle it.... But, that's more a feature for the farmer-types... As far as EATS actually getting some love... It's kind of nonexistant... I'm referring, of course, to not being able to color our own powers and such...

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlienOne View Post
So, am I the only one who thinks that EATs are the only ATs not getting any actual attention? True, it's great that we can scale mob sizes to 8 for those of us who can handle it.... But, that's more a feature for the farmer-types... As far as EATS actually getting some love... It's kind of nonexistant... I'm referring, of course, to not being able to color our own powers and such...

"The One"
Why would you want to. I can totally see it for the normal ATs... but for Khelds... that would just be very odd and out of place.

But I agree that EATs could use some love. It's as if they think they are complete or something else. Heck, it could be something cosmetic if they feel all the powers are where they need to be already. But rather than letting you tint, maybe have choices in the way your Nova or Dwarf looks.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlienOne View Post
So, am I the only one who thinks that EATs are the only ATs not getting any actual attention? True, it's great that we can scale mob sizes to 8 for those of us who can handle it.... But, that's more a feature for the farmer-types...
Indeed, because it's not like a solo Warshade has any AOEs or powers which require lots of enemies nearby to get their full potential...

EATs got such loving attention with the changes in i12 (it was 12, right?) that I'm prepared to let them lye for a while.

But an Epic Pool with powers that maybe gave more abilities to Human Form (a version of the Controller Psi Epics mez clicky) or increased the effectiveness of Nova or Lobster form would be nice too mind

Even just giving versions of the human form powers to Nova and Lobster would be nice (say Grav Emittion for Nova and Orbiting Death for Lobsters).


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlienOne View Post
So, am I the only one who thinks that EATs are the only ATs not getting any actual attention?
Actually, the way things are right now on the Test Server, Kheldians seem to be rooted when shifting forms from Human to Nova/Dwarf. So perhaps we should avoid attention rather than seek it

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlienOne View Post
...True, it's great that we can scale mob sizes to 8 for those of us who can handle it... But, that's more a feature for the farmer-types...
You got that right, and even then, that prefers Warshades to Peacebringers so PB's yet again get the short end of the stick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlienOne View Post
...As far as EATS actually getting some love... It's kind of nonexistent... I'm referring, of course, to not being able to color our own powers and such...
Heck, I'd be satisfied if I could simply tint the color of my Dwarf's and Nova's "eyes", or tint their auras. No need really to go into more detail, they're unique enough as it is

About the thread's topic itself... the more I think about it, the more I realize that what I'd like is if the Devs made the existing Power Pools work better for Kheldians than they do for the normal AT's. That would be Epic enough!


I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!

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Originally Posted by LordXenite View Post
You got that right, and even then, that prefers Warshades to Peacebringers so PB's yet again get the short end of the stick.
Sure, in isolation. But you can also raise the difficulty of the mobs seperately, to +4, which is higher than you currently can. So for a PB you can concentrate on smaller amounts of harder targets instead if you like. My not-really-very-IOed-at-all WS doesn't do that well against much higher conning enemies, especially solo.

The only short end of the stick would be drops earned in that scenario.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Carnifax View Post
Sure, in isolation. But you can also raise the difficulty of the mobs seperately, to +4, which is higher than you currently can. So for a PB you can concentrate on smaller amounts of harder targets instead if you like.
Greeeeeaaat. So my not-IOed-at-all PB can take twenty minutes to bring a boss down to half health instead of the usual five.

Sounds like just. so. much. fun.

Almost as much fun as the blatant and intentional hyperbole in my first statement, there.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe View Post
Greeeeeaaat. So my not-IOed-at-all PB can take twenty minutes to bring a boss down to half health instead of the usual five.

Sounds like just. so. much. fun.

Almost as much fun as the blatant and intentional hyperbole in my first statement, there.
There has to be a happy place for you though in all the new difficulty settings, surely? PBs are supposed to be better at fewer, harder targets aren't they? (I haven't played one much because the powers just didn't appeal to me as much). For one thing you could start by using the other, other new option and switch off the bosses too


 

Posted

Well, to be fair I was half-kidding in my post, but only halfway. The difference between my lv 44 PB and my 38 WS is day and night (yeah, I know. Punny.) My WS can cruise through invincible missions like a hot knife through butter, but my PB has to work at it.

It's like the difference between a Stone/Stone tanker and a Fire/Kin controller. My PB will flat-out NOT DIE unless I'm being stupid, but it takes ages to bring a +3 boss down when compared to my somewhat squishier WS who turns around to find the whole rest of the spawn was taken out by his fluffies before he could make the boss's corpse go boom.

Once I can fully saturate eclipse on a spawn set for eight, I know where my happy place will be: soloing on my WS.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe View Post
...Once I can fully saturate eclipse on a spawn set for eight, I know where my happy place will be: soloing on my WS.
Believe me, eventually, even that got boring for me and the Liberty RPA (Random Padders Association) lost my business


I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!

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Posted

I do see it as Kheldian Epic are already built in to their sets. We have 14/12 powers vs. other ATs 9/9.

I really, really do hope Khelds eventially get customization. I so want that hand ground smash for my PB's Solar Flare, and maybe Martial Art's new Tier 9 animation for Inc. Strike. Oh, and goldish coloration for the powers, and being able to tint those bubble shields so it seems they're not there...

Alternate forms would be wonderful were I a former; as is they'd just be gravy

I do believe we'll get customization for khelds someday (perhaps by GR, where I see them proliferating *lots* of options to all ATs ), though perhaps not to the extent I wish...


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socorro View Post
I so want that hand ground smash for my PB's Solar Flare, and maybe Martial Art's new Tier 9 animation for Inc. Strike.
This. WANTSS IT, PRECIOUSSSSS!!

Quote:
Oh, and goldish coloration for the powers, and being able to tint those bubble shields so it seems they're not there...
That, or include a mammalian beast head without so much teeth so I can finally make a believable hamster to go in my shield ball...



EDIT: Wow, I'm a pack rat. Found it after a year and a half. The short version was that it was form-specific pools that had powers that could be taken by those favoring the forms, as the powers would work for the forms. An extra "Nova Pool would open up after taking Nova form, and an extra "Dwarf Pool" would open up after taking dwarf, the idea being to give players the option to occasionally supplement a form pool power instead of a human form power they necessarily didn't want.

Maybe not the best suggestion ever, but fwiw here were the pool ideas:


Dwarf Pool - White Dwarf Ancilliary


Stellar Overload - Dwarf Build Up - bigger buff to your accuracy than damage, but it gives PB's double buildups.


Cosmic Absorption - like energy absorption, but buffs resistance and end, vise defense and end.


Energy Torrent - Like in Energy Blast - a footstomp followed by the torrent - minor damage and knockdown.


Energy Field - Dwarf glows brightly - debuffs mobs' damage. taunt aura toggle.




Dwarf Pool - Black Dwarf Ancilliary


Infinite Gaze - Petrifying gaze from Dark sets - after all, WS's already gots the double mire, right?


Black Hole - like wormhole from Gravity controller set - less damage, longer stun


Dark Absorption - like Dark Consumption, but buffs resistance and end.


Dark Matter Storm - Death Shroud from Dark Armor - minor damage/taunt aura





Nova Pool - Bright Nova Ancilliary


Cosmic Aim - like Aim from Blaster secondaries


Comet's Tail - ST high damage, kb - energy punch but with the squidly tail, using bright nova scatter's animation and a white pom-pom


Solar Flash - PBAOE - very minor damage, kb, -accuracy


Phasic Anomaly - +Defense click - nova starts to partially "phase" - parts of the nova form phasing in and out of reality. This is not meant to be related to elude, by any stretch, but just provides a little extra defense for dodging the unwanted aggro that 'scatter gets you until the tanker can get it back.



Nova Pool - Dark Nova Ancilliary


Midnight Surge - Aim


Gravimetric Feedback - ST stun using dark 'scatter animation


Graviton Flux - PBAOE sleep


Shadow Folding - +stealth click - Nova folds dark matter around itself, providing concealment and slight defense

WRT Epics, I would actually like to see some kheld-specific pools that we could take as we were levelling up in place of powers we really don't want - like group energy flight. Powers that might work in forms. I had a suggestion for that once, I'll have to dig around to see if I can find it....


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordXenite View Post
And how would we slot these new powers?
Yeah, there is a point where enough is enough... how many powers do we need? Heh.


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Posted

Honestly, it seems like SoA's getting access to Patron Pools was an afterthought. I mean, they get access to the Brute pools. The Brute pools? When one of those pools is in essense a copy of powers Bane Spiders get? It honestly seems like really bad planning to me. It might have been better to just remove the tie between the Patron Arcs and the powers completely, and just let the SoAs do those arcs if they wanted to.

In short, though, Kheldians get 13 Primary Powers and 11 Secondary. They also get 9 additional powers from their two forms. Normal ATs get 9 Primary, 9 Secondary and 5 Epics for 23 total. So Kheldians have either 24 total powers to choose from, (Human Form) 28-29 total powers, (Bi-Form) or 33 total powers. (Tri-Form)

SoA get 8 Powers in their Primary to start, plus 10 more Powers for Soldiers and Fortunata. Night Widows only get 6 additional choices. However, many of those are duplicates, and there are redraw issues with mixing mace and gun attacks, so probably about 10-12 is the maximum applicable choices.

Soldiers get 8 Secondary choices from Wolf Spider, plus 4 from Crab or Bane, so 12 total. None of these are really exclusive, although the Bane mace may cause redraw in the Primary. Widows have only 7 Secondary choices (only 7 of the Soldier choices could be made before he branched anyway) but Night Widows get 6 additional choices, while Fortunata only get 5. So 12-13 total.

So overall, about 22-25 powers to choose from, plus 5 for the Epics, so 27-30. This doesn't really compare well to the Human Form Kheldians, but certainly for Tri-Form or Bi-Form, the total powers that you have to choose from are pretty close. And this really is only the powers you get to choose from, the powers you can actually have is 24, no matter what AT you are. Kheldians get their Form powers for free, though, so they are above and beyond those 24 Human Form powers.

The only real difference, to me, is that Kheldians unlock all their powers by 38, while other ATs must wait for 41 to get to the Epic Pools. I suppose Kheldians could use access to Epic Pools, it might help Human Form Kheldians. I've also said that I think it's a good idea if they put the Pool Powers Kheldians can't get to, like Air Superiority, into an Epic Pool for them. Maybe even allow Warshades access to Fly and Peacebringers to Teleport.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordXenite View Post
And how would we slot these new powers?
Actually, since they would be chosen like any other power, they would just use the slots that whatever other power you would have chosen would have used. The question is, where do you find slots for powers, when you have the Nova and Dwarf powers taking up so many.

In reference to the OP you replied to, though, I do kind of like this idea. In essense, instead of an Epic Pool you would have Powers that you could choose for your Dwarf or Nova form instead of your Human form. So you would in a sense be able to transfer one of those Human powers over to the Form. I definately think it would be a cool idea for Form specialists.

Maybe you could have a third Human Form pool with some of the ideas that I suggested, like Air Superiority. You couldn't access all three pools, though, so you'd have to choose which one you favored.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordXenite View Post
And how would we slot these new powers?
You're missing the point - they would replace a power choice at a given level. For example, at, say, 35, you might choose to take one of the dwarf powers instead of light form.

The idea was to promote build diversity by empowering the forms at the cost of human form power choices and possibly further specialize in dwarf, nova, or both.

EDIT - okay, something I left out that probably should have been included from the original suggestion: They would progress much like pool and epic powers, in that their availability is restricted based on level and number of powers already taken:

For example: a power pool available to novas would run thus:


power 1 - available at lv 8
power 2 - available at lv 8
power 3 - available at lv 16, provided you have one of the first two
power 4 - available at lv 22, provided you have two others.

For Dwarf, it would run thus:

power 1 - available at lv 22
power 2 - available at lv 22
power 3 - available at lv 30, provided you have one of the first two
power 4 - available at lv 35, provided you have two others.

And again, this takes up your standard power pick at those levels.


The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon View Post
...And this really is only the powers you get to choose from, the powers you can actually have is 24, no matter what AT you are. Kheldians get their Form powers for free, though, so they are above and beyond those 24 Human Form powers...
Also keep in mind that Khelds get a travel power for free, so that's two extra slots they don't have to spend just to get around.

And give us the flight and teleport pools already. So what if there's a chance we pick a redundant power - other ATs face that risk already (Empathy Defenders and certain Medicine Pool powers), that's what respecs are for...


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe View Post
You're missing the point - they would replace a power choice at a given level. For example, at, say, 35, you might choose to take one of the dwarf powers instead of light form.

The idea was to promote build diversity by empowering the forms at the cost of human form power choices and possibly further specialize in dwarf, nova, or both.
So we'd get to flesh out our forms at the expense of Human-form you say... interesting idea. Quite interesting. But, and there's always a but, what about the concept where Nova/Dwarf by-design are supposed to be a watered-down copy of the AT they're supposed to emulate?


I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordXenite View Post
So we'd get to flesh out our forms at the expense of Human-form you say... interesting idea. Quite interesting. But, and there's always a but, what about the concept where Nova/Dwarf by-design are supposed to be a watered-down copy of the AT they're supposed to emulate?
They still would be. The Nova pool powers should emulate a blaster's secondary powers, minus melee attacks, and a Dwarf's pool emulates a tanker's secondary, minus the armors.

Even then, you're only talking about four attacks and four pool powers, or roughly the equivalent of half a primary and half a secondary.

Not that very many people would want to take every power in both pools, or even every power in one pool, for that matter. Taking every power in either pool would take up power slots that cover way too many desireable powers to skip.

Having said that, however, the power suggestions were just starting points; I'm quite sure more balanced alternatives would have to be created with an eye towards the loon who did take all eight powers. Assuming someone did that, then balance would have to be maintained with other AT's. The real trick would be to maintain that balance backwards so that if all would be taken it wouldn't be overpowered, but if only just one were taken it would be worth the choice.

Like I said, it wasn't perhaps the best suggestion out there, but it's the only one I've ever made wrt Kheldians and any form of power pools, epic or otherwise, and it seemed relevant to the thread.

I can't troll forever, you know.


EDIT - and actually, I really like Jade Dragon's point about having a kheld-specific pool for humans and - especially - the part about only being able to choose from one pool.


The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe View Post
...balance would have to be maintained with other AT's. The real trick would be to maintain that balance backwards so that if all would be taken it wouldn't be overpowered, but if only just one were taken it would be worth the choice.
I think you've exposed the point of why in 13 issues, there haven't been many direct changes to Kheldians. They're simply a nightmare to balance.


I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!

Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) Augmenting Peacebringers The Umbra Illuminati