[quote=Stormfront_NA;2160246]
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At that point they might as well close the market and make a store. The point of the market was a place to put your wares where you can make MORE inf than a vendor. If I can't what incentive do I as a seller have to use the market?|
Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire
You can't change player idiocy. There's no way to convince players en masse to use their tickets for salvage instead of whatever they use it on. Likewise, I don't see how they can stop marketeers from price gouging.
QUOTE] Actually you can... All the salvage and recipies have prices that vendors pay for them, usually very low, but is still some sort of benchmark. Why not have the vendors sell the stuff they buy as well, and say the sell it for four times the price they would pay for it. Thus you could buy any salvage, any recipe from a vendor and know that the top price is fixed. What does this mean at the market, well price gouging is done with; because if they try to make more than 4 times the value of the item, you just go to the vendor in the street instead. By using a system as I have proposed, players can still get drops and sell for a reasonable profit at the market, after all by checking at the vendor we know the low and the high value of each item. In fact, the Devs could add a feature at the market that informs you what are the vendor buying and selling prices. Thus making it easy on players to set prices for items. Hugs Stormy |
I might as well just vendor everything. Or instead of wasting my time simply delete everything I can't use on that toon personally.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[quote=Aura_Familia;2160361]
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This is just silly, you'd still be turning a better profit by putting the item on the market for a price between the vendor's buy and sell price than if you vendored or deleted it.
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Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
At that point they might as well close the market and make a store. The point of the market was a place to put your wares where you can make MORE inf than a vendor. If I can't what incentive do I as a seller have to use the market? I might as well just vendor everything. Or instead of wasting my time simply delete everything I can't use on that toon personally. |
[quote=Shadow State;2161255]
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Actually I'd make more money on the black market that would spring up if such an idiotic suggestion were made real.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
This is just silly, you'd still be turning a better profit by putting the item on the market for a price between the vendor's buy and sell price than if you vendored or deleted it. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[QUOTE=Aura_Familia;2160361]
Quote:
It appears your words to be truly spoken from a price gauger...|
Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
At that point they might as well close the market and make a store. The point of the market was a place to put your wares where you can make MORE inf than a vendor. If I can't what incentive do I as a seller have to use the market? I might as well just vendor everything. Or instead of wasting my time simply delete everything I can't use on that toon personally. |
Price gauging, in my opinion, encourages players to give business to the pesky outfits spam emaling us to buy influence for real money over the internet.
If you did notice, I made allowances for folks to make a profit from their good fortune, but within the realms of reason. What I did also suggest, was a cap to end price gauging.
It may be a good point, that the prices a vendor pays for recipes and salvage may need to be revised based on rarity and usefulness, so the base cost used by the multiplier to determine the cap sell price may make more sense. Also it could make sense that the price cap multiplier for salvage and recipies also be modified by the rairity and usefulness of the item in question. For example a very common white salvage, may only have a x2 multiplier, while a very useful white salvage could have a x3 multiplier for instance. Purples recipies could have a x10 multiplier, thus giving more room for haggling and playing the market games.
Hugs
Stormy
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I always have Paragon Wiki running in the background, so that if I'm looking for say and Ancient Artifact I just scroll to the bottom of the page and will find that "You will have a higher chance of getting this item from Arcane enemies between levels 4 and 19." |
Originally Posted by Basilisk
First and foremost, I would say that the random salvage needs to be outlined. I have no idea what a level 20-40 arcane salvage drop will give me. Each time I'm looking for a specific piece of salvage, I'm stuck looking it up on Paragon wiki. To make it a lot more user friendly, I would change it to say something along the lines of "Select this to receive a random drop from one of the following- Alchemical silver, yada yada yada..." I'm pretty sure if people knew what they were likely to get up front, they would be more likely to select it.
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I rarely perform a random roll without Paragon Wiki.
[QUOTE=Stormfront_NA;2161292]
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When was the last time you used Wentworth's to buy an SO? The system that you are proposing is basically what we have for SOs at the moment except that you're proposing a slightly higher variation in vendor buy/sell prices. Now I don't know about you but I never bother buying SOs at Wentworths, it's easier and faster to just go to the relevant store and buy what I need there even if I end up paying more. I never bother to list them either, it's quicker to just sell them to the store even if I don't get as much and the profit margin is low enough to make it pointless anyway.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
It appears your words to be truly spoken from a price gauger... Price gauging, in my opinion, encourages players to give business to the pesky outfits spam emaling us to buy influence for real money over the internet. If you did notice, I made allowances for folks to make a profit from their good fortune, but within the realms of reason. What I did also suggest, was a cap to end price gauging. It may be a good point, that the prices a vendor pays for recipes and salvage may need to be revised based on rarity and usefulness, so the base cost used by the multiplier to determine the cap sell price may make more sense. Also it could make sense that the price cap multiplier for salvage and recipies also be modified by the rairity and usefulness of the item in question. For example a very common white salvage, may only have a x2 multiplier, while a very useful white salvage could have a x3 multiplier for instance. Purples recipies could have a x10 multiplier, thus giving more room for haggling and playing the market games. Hugs Stormy |
Now you are correct that a price cap combined with unlimited supply at that cap would work (as opposed to a price cap alone which won't). But once you have a store with an unlimited supply there is very little point in having the market at all unless the buy/sell price difference is massive. There will be a few people who use it either to try and make a profit or get a bargain but the vast majority of players will opt to use the store simply it's less hassle and the difference in price is negligible. I'm sure I get more than 4 bad drops for every good drop I get, if I could trade four bad recipes for 1 good one I doubt I'd really bother with the market since it wouldn't be worth the effort.
The current street price for a purple recipe from a damage based set is between 100mil and 300mil depending on the recipe and set. A vendor will pay 5K for the same recipe, a negligible sum. I'm curious, under your plan what buy and sell price would you set on purple recipes? Be careful, to low and getting purples becomes trivial, to high and you end up with the same problem that you see now.
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For example, we could allow people to express their desires to have and willingness to part with these items using some sort of numerical scale, and then redistribute items from those who most wish to part with them to those who most desire them until no one wants an item more than someone else wants to hold onto it.|
Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
It may be a good point, that the prices a vendor pays for recipes and salvage may need to be revised based on rarity and usefulness, so the base cost used by the multiplier to determine the cap sell price may make more sense. Also it could make sense that the price cap multiplier for salvage and recipies also be modified by the rairity and usefulness of the item in question.
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We could call it a Mechanism for Automatic Redistribution, Keeping Exchanges Tolerable, which I'm sure has some kind of catchy acronym in it somewhere.
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Agreed. I usually don't like the AE (though I have run across some good missions) and I don't really like playing the market, but when I want to craft something I'll usually run one or two "Very Short" AE missions, buy rolls for Common Salvage as needed, and often put the excess salvage on the market for somewhere between 10 and 500 inf per piece.|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
at 8 tickets for a roll on a group of 6, there is no logical reason for people even those who use the AE only, to complain. Its trivial to get the salvage you want via tickets.
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If there's a shortage of common salvage... it's because that's how the players want it.
Forum Game: Lower the Rep
[QUOTE=Adeon_Hawkwood;2161711]
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Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
When was the last time you used Wentworth's to buy an SO? The system that you are proposing is basically what we have for SOs at the moment except that you're proposing a slightly higher variation in vendor buy/sell prices. Now I don't know about you but I never bother buying SOs at Wentworths, it's easier and faster to just go to the relevant store and buy what I need there even if I end up paying more. I never bother to list them either, it's quicker to just sell them to the store even if I don't get as much and the profit margin is low enough to make it pointless anyway.
Now you are correct that a price cap combined with unlimited supply at that cap would work (as opposed to a price cap alone which won't). But once you have a store with an unlimited supply there is very little point in having the market at all unless the buy/sell price difference is massive. There will be a few people who use it either to try and make a profit or get a bargain but the vast majority of players will opt to use the store simply it's less hassle and the difference in price is negligible. I'm sure I get more than 4 bad drops for every good drop I get, if I could trade four bad recipes for 1 good one I doubt I'd really bother with the market since it wouldn't be worth the effort. The current street price for a purple recipe from a damage based set is between 100mil and 300mil depending on the recipe and set. A vendor will pay 5K for the same recipe, a negligible sum. I'm curious, under your plan what buy and sell price would you set on purple recipes? Be careful, to low and getting purples becomes trivial, to high and you end up with the same problem that you see now. |
I normally by SOs from vendors for they are not worth beating oneself up, after all 5 levels later, they are worthless, especially now since leveling is so fast and easy to do.
Invention recipes are way too undervalued by the vendors when they buy them from you. As you mentioned, a purple a comical 5K is plainly wrong.
The real question in my mind, is what should, for instance, a hetacomb be worth? How you determine worth? Do you say, that you should earn one after working say 80 hours? and then say a normal player can make say 100k an hour of pure influence, thus the purple should be worth 800,000?
So the two questions would be: How much influence (not counting inspirations, recipes, etc) would a player make in an hour, make theat an average player, casual player, not a power farmer. The second question, how many hours of work/play is a given recipe color worth? With these 2 questions answered, a baseline recipe worth can be defined.
Once those two basic questions are reasonably answered, a structure could be defined, for example:
Purples have a x10 multiplier
Reds have a x 5 multiplier
Yellows have a x3 multiplier
Whites have a x 2 multiplier
So if a vendor buys a purple from you for 1 Million, he would sell a purple to you for 10 million based on the multiplier structure above.
If you use the market, based on how rare the drops are, you could see folks selling the recipe clsoer to the 10M than the 5 million, if the recipe falls too often (pacing of the turtle) it may sell for a price in the lower end of the spectrum.
Hugs
Stormy
Quote:
I've also found it quite profitable to convert the hundreds (thousands) of base salvage on my characters to brainstorm tokens. 1 token gives you 1 random common. It used to be better to spend 30 for a rare, but with the price of commons lately...
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
The solution is not change drop rates, but resolving the issue in player behavior.
For whatever reason people seem to refuse to roll commons with tickets, then complain about their scarcity. at 8 tickets for a roll on a group of 6, there is no logical reason for people even those who use the AE only, to complain. Its trivial to get the salvage you want via tickets. |
Quote:
If this was implemented, that's probably the best way to do it. However, ss with SOs, I think that this would completely kill the player market for most items. You might get a bit of movement from badgers listing drops at low prices to get WW badges and for purples the buy/sell prices might be different enough to get some action going. But overall I think that people will just opt to buy stuff from the vendor since overall it's a lot easier and the price difference is marginal.|
Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
I normally by SOs from vendors for they are not worth beating oneself up, after all 5 levels later, they are worthless, especially now since leveling is so fast and easy to do.
Invention recipes are way too undervalued by the vendors when they buy them from you. As you mentioned, a purple a comical 5K is plainly wrong. The real question in my mind, is what should, for instance, a hetacomb be worth? How you determine worth? Do you say, that you should earn one after working say 80 hours? and then say a normal player can make say 100k an hour of pure influence, thus the purple should be worth 800,000? So the two questions would be: How much influence (not counting inspirations, recipes, etc) would a player make in an hour, make theat an average player, casual player, not a power farmer. The second question, how many hours of work/play is a given recipe color worth? With these 2 questions answered, a baseline recipe worth can be defined. Once those two basic questions are reasonably answered, a structure could be defined, for example: Purples have a x10 multiplier Reds have a x 5 multiplier Yellows have a x3 multiplier Whites have a x 2 multiplier So if a vendor buys a purple from you for 1 Million, he would sell a purple to you for 10 million based on the multiplier structure above. If you use the market, based on how rare the drops are, you could see folks selling the recipe clsoer to the 10M than the 5 million, if the recipe falls too often (pacing of the turtle) it may sell for a price in the lower end of the spectrum. |
I realize that for you the ability to buy stuff directly from a vendor is a desirable outcome, but personally I like the market as is
.
Quote:
This. If you can defeat something, then you can benefit from "high prices".
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Originally Posted by Smurphy
Go hunt. Kill skulz.
What can you defeat in this game and NOT get common salvage, or tickets, or merits or something to sell and buy common salvage? It's common salvage. It's still common salvage. Go shoot something. |
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Originally Posted by Basilisk
What I'm proposing is to change that description to something along the lines of: "Purchasing this reward will grant you a random roll for a common piece of salvage from the following list: Ancient Artifact, Luck Charm, Clockwork Winder, Spell Scroll, Spiritual Essence, Runebound Armor" (in the case of the 10-25 Arcane roll. Change as necessary for the others)
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As I recall, the random Merit rolls for rare salvage include lists like this...
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Personally, I don't have big issues with common salvage. If I don't have some that I need, and the market is overpriced at the moment, I just run a quick AE mission and blow all the tickets on random common rolls. Works fine.
(I try to avoid it, though. I don't like AE missions because they don't give that nice bonus of XP & Prestige at the end. Or Merits once the story arc is done.)
Part of the problem is the proliferation of several currencies, and the imperfect convertability of one to another. First, there was only inf; now there are Vanguard merits, reward merits, and now tickets. All require that you do different things to accumulate them. And as a result, the most common and prior in time currency - inf - is having its value eroded. This is a problem that requires dev attention.
It is pretty much self-evident that prices for AH salvage are broken. The prices simply are unfeasible to meet by the inf gained in normal play. If a piece of 10-25 common salvage can be reliably bought on the AH for 5K inf, but a level 10 character gets less than 15 inf per minion defeated, this means that the player is going to need to defeat 333 enemies to meet the AH price. And many items of low level salvage go for many times that. The only player who can hope to participate is the one who also plays the AH game herself. The AH itself has lost its function of delivering needed pieces into the hands of those who will actually use it. Prices need to be normalized and they need to be normalized yesterday.
The first step, IMO, is to enable common salvage to be directly purchased to order with inf and with tickets, rather than being rolled for. I'd suggest the same ratio (40%, or 2.5:1) used for SO sales to specialty vendors; so that a piece of common salvage that vendors for 250 could be bought for 625, uncommons for 2500, and so forth. Perhaps a special story or even a task/strike force could be used to unlock this feature. The fair price for specific items of common salvage should be 20 tickets, and that functionality should be added to the MA store as well.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Quote:
You've already got nearly all the information you need. You're looking for salvage for a recipe, right? You have the recipe. It is level x. If level x is 25 or less, you roll on the 10-25 tier. If level x is 26-40, the 26-40 tier. Almost (but not all) recipes require one tech and one arcane common salvage. You can probably guess which is which.
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Originally Posted by Basilisk
Actually, what I'm talking about is when you go into the AE window to trade your tickets. Under the reward rolls tab, you get the choice of 6 different common salvage rolls: level 10-25, 26-40, or 41 to 50 tech or arcane salvage. The description that they give for these rolls is "Purchasing this reward will grant you a random roll for a common piece of [origin] salvage within the level [range] range."
What I'm proposing is to change that description to something along the lines of: "Purchasing this reward will grant you a random roll for a common piece of salvage from the following list: Ancient Artifact, Luck Charm, Clockwork Winder, Spell Scroll, Spiritual Essence, Runebound Armor" (in the case of the 10-25 Arcane roll. Change as necessary for the others) My feeling is that half of the problem is that a lot of people, myself included, don't know offhand what they're likely to get from a level 26-40 Tech roll. If I'm looking for a luck charm for my recipe, I've only got the information to guess that it's an arcane roll without going outside of the game |
Salvage prices don't bug me since they're still available. I'm more concerned with the huge swathes of recipes that are simply unavailable redside (and often blueside) at any price.
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
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Recipe prices, fortunately, are pegged at least one of the game currencies: merits. Run enough SFs, and you will eventually be able to acquire any non-purple set recipe, even if none are available on the market, or the ones at the market are selling for more inf than you can hope to acquire.|
Originally Posted by Cynical_Gamer
Salvage prices don't bug me since they're still available. I'm more concerned with the huge swathes of recipes that are simply unavailable redside (and often blueside) at any price.
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I certainly would not object to having their value pegged to inf, or have a direct merit to inf conversion available.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Quote:
Love your suggestion, but also include recipies into this mix as well...|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
Part of the problem is the proliferation of several currencies, and the imperfect convertability of one to another. First, there was only inf; now there are Vanguard merits, reward merits, and now tickets. All require that you do different things to accumulate them. And as a result, the most common and prior in time currency - inf - is having its value eroded. This is a problem that requires dev attention.
It is pretty much self-evident that prices for AH salvage are broken. The prices simply are unfeasible to meet by the inf gained in normal play. If a piece of 10-25 common salvage can be reliably bought on the AH for 5K inf, but a level 10 character gets less than 15 inf per minion defeated, this means that the player is going to need to defeat 333 enemies to meet the AH price. And many items of low level salvage go for many times that. The only player who can hope to participate is the one who also plays the AH game herself. The AH itself has lost its function of delivering needed pieces into the hands of those who will actually use it. Prices need to be normalized and they need to be normalized yesterday. The first step, IMO, is to enable common salvage to be directly purchased to order with inf and with tickets, rather than being rolled for. I'd suggest the same ratio (40%, or 2.5:1) used for SO sales to specialty vendors; so that a piece of common salvage that vendors for 250 could be bought for 625, uncommons for 2500, and so forth. Perhaps a special story or even a task/strike force could be used to unlock this feature. The fair price for specific items of common salvage should be 20 tickets, and that functionality should be added to the MA store as well. |
Stormy
/jranger
Salvage is fine just the way it is.
Not sure if drop rates all together are bugged since I16, but I am pretty sure my salvage, and recipe drop rates were at least triple of what I am getting now. I do believe inspiration drop rates have not changed and drop as much today as they used to before the days of AE.
Hugs
Stormy
Quote:
I'll join the "get off your butts and kills some stuff" group.|
Originally Posted by Smurphy
Go hunt. Kill skulz.
What can you defeat in this game and NOT get common salvage, or tickets, or merits or something to sell and buy common salvage? It's common salvage. It's still common salvage. Go shoot something. |
My VG and SG currently have TWO... yea, TWO active players. I've got salvage bins full on both sides of common, uncommon and rare salvage.
Only change I need to see when it comes to salvage are the storage limits per bin.
Be well, people of CoH.
Increasing the drop rates will not do much. Increasing rates doesn't address that players aren't putting their commons on the market. There's a breakdown in the pipeline. I've deleted over 60 commons in the last 2 days instead of shlepping to the market to sell. It's like the old days when we got TOs in the mix with SOs and DOs. They weren't worth carrying to the NPCs to sell. Same holds true today. If I spend tickets on rolls and get 4 Masterworks before I get the Alchemical silver I want, or my salvage fills before I get what I want, I'm not about to break off and go sell. They get deleted. Same if I'm in a mission, team or not.
The solution, if there is one would be to come up with a new way to feed things into the market. Come up with tracking data on what gets sold to NPCs (I'll sell commons to NPCs before I waste time posting them on the market, for time's sake, and I don't think I'm alone in that). From there have a script that posts a percentage of those on the market.
Of course, that instantly kills all incentive to flip or gouge, but on the downside it eliminates some potential to use the market for reasonable moneymaking.
Of course, all of this is predicated on determining if there really is a "problem" in need of a solution.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Hi!
I have advocated, and been flamed much for it, for vendors selling salvage and recipies as a market price control. For example, you can buy IO recipes (not inventions) at the university right now, therefore the prices players may ask for an accuracy 50 will be limited by how much a player could simply buy it at the university. Frankly I would like to see the same practice with inventions, of course the prices at the university need to really make sense and be appropriate for the rarity and uselfuness of the invention recipe. It would also be so cool, if you could buy the recipe and its ingredients at the same time from the university as well, kinda like a package deal.
It is true, that the glitter of the market may be noticeably reduced for the exhorbitant profits to be made there will essentially go away. But good money can still be made, just not exhorbitant.
Hugs
Stormy
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Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
It is true, that the glitter of the market may be noticeably reduced for the exhorbitant profits to be made there will essentially go away. But good money can still be made, just not exhorbitant.
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I am sure others will same similar things, but it is not the profits, but what players will pay.
If a player list something way too high and it does not sell, they made no profit.
If a player list something way too high and it sells, they made a great profit off a buyer willing to pay the price. The seller only listed it at a price they would accept, there is no requirement to accept it as a buyer.
IMO, there are too many "I MUST HAVE IT NOW!" buyers and and items that are in short supply with high demand that make the prices go up.
A couple of experiences with 2 of my toons. My blaster was sitting at 42, on the shelf at the time, and had lvl40 SO's which weren't doing anything. A bit after IO's came out, I went and place 1111 bids for generic crafted IO's. I checked weekly because I knew there would be crafters dumping IO's to clear inventory. And after a month or so, I had all the IO's I needed. I even respec and got some infl back on the old SO's. If sellers accepted 1111, then that is what they got.
More recently, my widow has 3 purple sets (5 slotted). Expensive right? Well, I didn't think so. I put in low bids at the beginning of the year. And slowly over time by July, I had 14 of the 15 IO's I wanted - a few through drops and rest by bids. I had so much leftover inf, I just splurged and grabbed the last one to move on to the next toon. Except for the last IO, I don't think the sellers made exhorbitant profits.
[QUOTE=Prof_Backfire;2153818]You can't change player idiocy. There's no way to convince players en masse to use their tickets for salvage instead of whatever they use it on. Likewise, I don't see how they can stop marketeers from price gouging.
QUOTE]
Actually you can...
All the salvage and recipies have prices that vendors pay for them, usually very low, but is still some sort of benchmark.
Why not have the vendors sell the stuff they buy as well, and say the sell it for four times the price they would pay for it. Thus you could buy any salvage, any recipe from a vendor and know that the top price is fixed.
What does this mean at the market, well price gouging is done with; because if they try to make more than 4 times the value of the item, you just go to the vendor in the street instead.
By using a system as I have proposed, players can still get drops and sell for a reasonable profit at the market, after all by checking at the vendor we know the low and the high value of each item. In fact, the Devs could add a feature at the market that informs you what are the vendor buying and selling prices. Thus making it easy on players to set prices for items.
Hugs
Stormy