Mass Confusion vs XP....

You've said here what I've been saying. It's sad that you're focused on it being a complaint though. It's not misleading when for a fact they are coming out short on the xp per mob. Stating that isn't negative. If you choose not to use the confuse, you'll get more xp per mob, also a fact. I've also stated that even though the (reduced xp received) is going to be made up by the over all xp earned because of the faster rate.

I'm lost on this reference. I'm not sure what you're connecting this to. Can you quote for me please? I don't know if this is something I've addressed directly or if it's just being inferred. I've read back, but I just don't see it. Thank You...

I am sorry you feel that way. I know I'm not saying it the way you would say it, but it is still fact that the xp gained is less when confuse is used then when it's not used. If you're running mission after mission, then yes, again, you are correct, xp over time will go up. If you run one or two missions due to limited time, then the benifets are lower. Each individual using the power can come to their own conclusion on it being negative or positive. That is never wrong :-)

(I'm saying this with a kind, calm and soothing voice. I don't want anyone to think I'm angry or sarcastic when I'm writing this out. I'm trying to relay thoughtfulness and understanding but that doesn't always read that way.) Thank You.

I was misreading here - I was referring to IronYeti's post in which he talked about losing XP to someone else damaging a MOB, your reply to that point is above - I confused it with my comparison to teamed XP vs solo XP. Specifically my point is that getting reduced XP from a confused mob is like getting reduced XP due to teaming - in this case the confused mob is part of your 'team' and just like in a team the XP you recieve is less than if you where solo but more than if someone outside your team had finished off the mob for you.

I didn't think you where anything but calm - however the point I am trying make is that I believe you add to the misconception of confuse being a bad power by insisting that you lose xp to confused mobs. I think this results in mis-communication due to imprecise use of language. Consider these two statements:

"When I arrest enemies damaged by a confused mob it takes me half the normal time but I lose 20% of the experience"

"When I arrest enemies damaged by a confused mob I earn experience 60% faster, even though I get less experience for each enemy"

They both say the same thing - but the first sounds negative to me, giving the impression that you are losing out, the second sounds positive. As this thread has established there is a wide perception that confusion powers are not good and that you lose XP then using them - which we both have agreed is not true when all factors are taken into account. I just think your insistence on using language similar to the first sentence is adding to the problem, not helping it. I also think this is why you got into a disagreement with Enantiodromos - from what I can tell his guide on confused XP simply lays out how to tell if you are actually making enough XP over time to justify the reduced XP per mob.

You. You are whining (aka raising concerns) about something exactly like "lost" XP from mobs despawning. I agree that's a stupid thing to whine about.

I'm left thinking you don't know what the word "lost" means.

Do you realize, you've just agreed that all mob HPs you don't take away with damage amount to "lost experience?" Do you get that that's exactly the point of my comparison?

How... on what planet.... is XP you didn't earn "lost?" That something is lost implies that you had it. You never had it. It can't be lost.

So... uh... did you read the thing you quoted back? If you had, you'd realize it doesn't use the word lost, and it doesn't TALK about a situation in which XP is lost.

BTW-- that blurb was part of the official description of Mass Confusion back when the power actually DID cause you to lose XP-- before the confusion reward scheme was changed.

Don't attempt to refute something if you can't be bothered to read it.

Look-- seriously. You just misused one term-- "Lost." It's not lost XP. But lots of people make the same mistake, and you can quit defending it any time.

Actually I've written about it in several guides. The sections in some of the other guides might be more accessible than what's in the Confusion/Time guide.

But the essence of it is that the XP distribution tweak is only half the story. It is self-magnifying because if you're doing 50% of the damage, you're also spending proportionally 50% the time on the spawn, since team damage output is steady over time (though it fluxes.)

A: What's really at issue, and can legitimately be called "lost" is XP opportunity. Confusions can cause lost XP opportunity.

That's exactly what everybody who's talking about something being lost is really talking about, whether they know it or not-- the lost opportunity on a GIVEN mob. Once you wrap your head around that, it's effortless to see that in a system of infinite opportunity like the game presents, the loss of finite opportunity is meaningless.

I made the exact same point in my Ill/Rad guide. Nobody "loses" XP. At most, you lose the opportunity to earn some potential XP that you haven't earned yet. The net effect is that you kill stuff faster and in more safety, so the effect of Confuse power on XP is only positive.

Ok, I didn't get as much xp because I used confused. By using confused on the mobs, I received less xp than I would have had I not used confused. Using confused allowed me to give up xp I had the potential to earn.

I'll defend the word because it's the same thing to me. You see it differently, fine, that's you're accepted term. "Lost" is mine. It's not a mistake. It is my point of view. Thank You for respecting my point of view.

So by your definition of lost, I could follow a sewer team of lvl 1-6 around with my lvl 50 fire/kin with hot feet turned on and it would be ok. They aren't losing experience because they never had it.

Let's say you used confuse and killed 100 mobs in 30 minutes for 80 xp.
You're claiming you could have gotten 20 more xp out of those mobs.

How would you have done it?

I dont - You're mixing statements.

If using confuse and I kill (arrest) 100 mobs I get 80xp.

Killing those same mobs without confuse I get 100xp.

If using confuse on mobs, over 30 minutes I can kill 200 mobs and get 160xp

When you use confuse, you can clear mobs faster, but at a reduced xp / mob ratio. You can still get xp faster and this is what is referred to as a "net gain" for xp.

If you run mish after mish, this will produce a net gain in xp. If you only run one mish, you just finish it faster at a lower xp gain. The back and forth is only about the word being used to discribe the lower gain in xp.

I'll leave it up to each one reading the posts to determine if it's positive or negative. Both sides are polarized at opposite ends of the same coin. Please don't let that confuse you. It is playful banter back and forth and in the end, it is a power that I would never go without. It has saved teams from wiping on many occasions.

I think you lost the point. When using confusion, it's xp gain over time.

The formula would be xp = (xmp+ylp+zbp)(t+tc)
xp is total xp gained per group
x is the number of minions, m is the amount of xp a minion gives
y is the number of lt's, and l is the amount of xp an lt gives
z is the number of bosses, and b is the amount of xp a boss gives.
p is 100 minus the percentage of xp that is lost from each kill/arrest.

t is the amount of time it takes you to get through that one mob
c is the effect confusion has on time. c is between 0 and 1.

He didn't claim you can get 20 more xp out of 100 mobs using confuse, but if you don't use confuse on the mob, then the numbers xmp, ylp, and zbp increase, but the t/c will decrease, thus making total xp gained per group decline. Assuming c = 20% effect on time, fighting mobs for 30 minutes with confuse would be the equivalent of fighting mobs for 36 minutes, even though the actual time spent fighting was 30 minutes.

I'm pretty sure the above formula is effective in describing the use of confusion.

Edit:

Actually, that could also be xp = p(xm+yl+zb)(t(1+c))

I didn't lose the point. I was making sure he got the point.

Agreed.
He claimed you can get 20 more xp out of those 100 mobs by NOT using confuse.

I questioned his method of "xp extraction" to verify that he understood exactly what he was saying.

In order for him to extract those 20 xp, he *would have to play longer*.

"He's Right Here..." LOL

You're not following the conversation-- or you're deliberately merging two distinct issues.

I never said anything like: greifing somebody was "OK." That's your own invention.

So, do you want to talk about 1) whether your case represents lost XP? Or 2) whether it represents something BAD for XP?

1) It's not lost XP because it can't be earned. Obviously.

2) When I originally broached why it's wrong to call this XP lost, I pointed out that this illusion-of-lost-opportunity dealie we've been talking about just now, is only the first of reasons it's utter nonsense to say the XP's lost. "You can't lose what you didn't earn," is only the first part of what's at issue.

Hotfeet XP distribution is VERY different from confused mob damage XP distribution. This is the part that's actually arcane and requires somebody to pay attention to an obscure explanation of what goes on. OR, to take the word of somebody they trust has studied it thoroughly.

It's worth talking about. I've included that talk in I think just about every guide that touches on confusions, that I've ever written.

But people make up these nonsense cases as though they "prove" that confuses are bad for XP, and utterly fail to make a meaningful point. Like "fire/kins following a sewer team."

Yes,the sewer team would not be earning, and therefore not losing, XP.

No, it's not OK, it's using a power to actually limit XP opportunity.

And no, this case has nothing to do with confusions, which don't do anything remotely like your example, because confused mob damage affects XP differently than unteamed ally damage.

That's also wrong. You get more XP from using confuses.

And yes, you're definitely misusing the word "lost" assuming we're both speaking english.

Points of view don't deserve respect[1]. Some are simply better than others, e.g., "2+2=4" > "2+2=5". If you want to be fawned over for having some opinion, any opinion, I think that's pretty incompatible with a place where the norm is reasoned discussions based on facts.

Your point of view is misinformation. That's why it needs to be discussed.


[1] This is an important point with me: it's people, not ideas, that deserve respect (or, well, I would say: compassion). If you're implying I have to respect your ideas in order respect you, I strongly disagree. You're more important than your ideas, and generally have been pretty reasonable, here, considering you understand confuses incorrectly and I'm admittedly a little frustrated trying to help you understand them.

Thank You Mr. Peabody.

I'm enjoying your frivilous attempt to correct something that is not in need of correction. You're being very "a" retentive about it and really just need to let it go now. I think there is more than enough information here for people to make up their own minds on how they want to see experience gain with the use of confuse. I'm not going to worry about splitting hairs on this issue with you any more. You can tell me how wrong I am and how much help I need, but in the end, you're the only one with the real issue. If you need it to be exactly correct, have fun with that. I'm done with you and you just need to let go and walk away. You've wasted too much time on this. Just let it go.....

Enjoy Life and the Game!!!!

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So your either trolling on the use of words, or your really that dimwitted to realize that lost XP being discussed is referring to lost XP opportunity. There has been no claim that the lost xp from using confuse is greater than the lost xp from not using confuse. Quite the opposite actually.

I think your having issues following your own conversation. Reread the thread.

Does it need correction? See my guide to the word necessary; I don't really know if you're insisting on your mistakes because you're confused, or just unwilling to acknowledge a simple mistake.

But if you continue with patent nonsense like saying there's some sense in which confusions cause "XP loss," expect to be corrected. Because that's completely backwards. They don't do anything remotely like that.

Speculating that I'm a troll or dimwitted is rude, but also laughable.

But no, it's not use of words. It's a matter of understanding how confusions affect XP. Saying confusions cause XP loss makes it perfectly clear the speaker doesn't get what's going on. (And that claim, your revisionism notwithstanding, was the gist of this discussion.)

There's a distinction between lost XP and lost opportunity, and if you reread the thread, you'll realize I'm the person who brought it up to begin with, because understanding the distinction is necessary to understanding that, in no way, shape, or form, does confusion cause anything like XP loss.

NOR is there any problem with confuses causing lost opportunity-- because that opportunity is not a finite resource.

I find the pretense that you and Pan understood the situation in the first place amusing, though.

No speculation required.

Pardon me. I guess what I meant to say was: if you have something to say on topic, I'd be much more interested to hear it, than anybody is, your remarks re: my character and intelligence.