Anyone ever grouped with a PB/WS in an AE (and in general I'm sure)
By
CaptainMoodswing,
Posted on: 2009-08-20 16:25 in Victory
Ive seen a few really amazing Khelds. Jimmy Vine's WS, Toril's WS, and SGS's PB come to mind.
I think for the most part what you are running into isnt the player being a Kheld its the player being in AE.
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Why thank you, sir! Very kind of you to say! |
Originally Posted by The_Masque
...and SGS's PB come to mind.
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And you're right, JV's WS is amazing, and Palindrome's WS is a freaking damage machine -- he spent a ton of money on the build and we were using it the other night to steamroll through Unai Kemen missions just for some fun.Quote:
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Originally Posted by The_Masque
I think for the most part what you are running into isnt the player being a Kheld its the player being in AE.
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StainedGlassScarlet - L50 Spines/Inv Scrapper | Badges: 1,396
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Generally if someones proved to be a complete moron I'll kick them from the group, and a Kheld will typically show they're an idiot within the first few pulls. Apparently most everyone else isn't as much of a ******* as I am when it comes to helping an idiot become a high level idiot, otherwise there wouldn't be such a proliferation of high level Kheldians floating around the AE building looking to bottom feed their way into IOing their half ***** character up.
Ummm, yeah. I never understand this attitude. "I teamed with 'x' Archetype and they screwed everything, why are they all so stupid?"
That's like blaming a perfectly good car for being an accident because a drunk driver was behind the wheel. Blacklisting an AT makes no sense at all. Keep track of the crummy players with your rating and don't play with them again, but pay no attention to the AT.
Kheldians, like any AT in the game, can do some great and amazing things... especially depending on the person driving the Kheldian. I've received positive comments about my Peacebringer when I've run it (heard a lot of "man, you make me want to go play Kheldian"), and played with Kheldians that do some spectacular things. But then I've played with some that make me wonder what the heck those people are thinking, they're that bad.
But that's true of every AT I've played with, which is all of them.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Having not played with an amazing Kheld that I know of...I really don't know what would make one or how to play mine to be amazing at least passable.
I know I do the buffer/healer thing okay.
I can be an okay blaster.
Tanking is easy button.
I have hard time scrapping.
But I ramble what does make an amazing Kheld?
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I am amazing. Masque said so. That's all you need to know.|
Originally Posted by Scootertwo
Having not played with an amazing Kheld that I know of...I really don't know what would make one or how to play mine to be amazing at least passable.
I know I do the buffer/healer thing okay. I can be an okay blaster. Tanking is easy button. I have hard time scrapping. But I ramble what does make an amazing Kheld? |
Actually to be honest, playing a Kheld requires at least some general idea about what you want to do with the character. It doesn't fall into one category and the powers don't all synergize together, but they don't have to. You get so many power picks to choose from that you can pick a theme and go with it. Most players don't seem to do this though, they are either overwhelmed with all the power picks or they just choose all sorts of shinies and slot randomly. Maybe I also have the benefit that I ran my WS up during I3, so all the changes between its release and its current form have just made it easier and easier for me. Playing my WS like a dark scrapper with pets works out great for me.
Most amusing run I have had with my WS post AE was on a LGTF with a PB. He got hit by a Rikti Quantum that nearly killed him and he wanted to know what the hell just hit him... When I pointed out the Quantum, he asked, what those were. He was L50.
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
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Sweet mother of everything holy. That's just depressing, considering how HIGHLIGHTED those enemies are in the Kheldian story arcs (heck, you're warned about a Void Hunter in your first story arc, and advised that you can avoid it). They obviously hadn't even touched those. *sighs* I remember when I had gotten my Kheld figured out well enough at level 9 or something to be able to drop a Void Hunter before he dropped me (this was well before all their recent buffs). That was fun!|
Originally Posted by Toril
Most amusing run I have had with my WS post AE was on a LGTF with a PB. He got hit by a Rikti Quantum that nearly killed him and he wanted to know what the hell just hit him... When I pointed out the Quantum, he asked, what those were. He was L50.
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And yeah, you have to know what you're doing with a Kheldian. Going all human is popular for some reason, but it's good to know that they're set up with the forms in mind. Not taking at least Dwarf or Nova does gimp a Kheldian to some extent (though all human Warshades seems to do better than all human Peacebringers). It's not quite on the order of a Tanker not taking their shields, but it is similar.
I have a tri-form Peacebringer, and I love it. I adapt to what I and/or the team needs at that moment... one of my favorites is to fly above a mob, fire off Photon Seekers, switch to Dwarf, fall on the mob, Foot Stomp, and watch all the pretty fireworks as the Photon Seekers explode. It's beautiful carnage, I tell you!
You're also right on with your slotting things right, Toril... most complaints I've seen on the Kheld forums are from people wanting to be everything at once from an early level, which you really can't. I focused on Nova form first (which is great for the early levels... and all levels, but you can solo well with it for a long while), then Dwarf, and slotted up the human powers as I went. Worked well for me.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
I was part of the All Khels IFT that Mental put together a few months back and we shined, well, until Romy. Queen tanked most of every mission until then, then it was a COMPLETE change of tactics since I couldn't stock enough purples to keep from getting killed.
But yea, don't blacklist the AT, just the players. Maybe the OP's observations come from PBs and WSs are another step harder to play than your average scrapper or blaster. If you're not at least familiar with what your character can do, you can quickly get lost.
Current favs: Champ: Frau Schmeterling-22 MM 50s: NOTW-Blaster, Cat-Girl Commando-corr, Queen of the Dawn-PB, NOTW-Def, Peterbilt-Brute, IcedTNA-Tank, Archilies-scrap, Mann Eater-stalk, Redemptive Soul-toller, Mt Fuji of A-Team-Tank, Hot Stuff Vale-Dom
My MiniCity
I figured out the shape change macro early and right now have a PB and WS both in their early 20's.
So basically have a plan and stick to it.
I think I can handle that.
I teamed with a lvl 40 WS that had no vet badges. Took him 15 minutes to find RWZ. Died constantly.
My WS is pretty amazing. My mom says so, at least.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
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She didn't have to put up with teaming with you |
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
My WS is pretty amazing. My mom says so, at least.
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I've already forgotten about most of you
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I completely disagree, GP. My PB is (due to concept reasons) human-only form (my WS is human/Dwarf) and I think it's a pretty solid toon, offering ranged options nearly as effective as a Blaster, and melee options pretty respectable as well.|
Originally Posted by Grey_Pilgrim
Not taking at least Dwarf or Nova does gimp a Kheldian to some extent (though all human Warshades seems to do better than all human Peacebringers). It's not quite on the order of a Tanker not taking their shields, but it is similar.
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I think the bottom line is (like you pointed out) having an overall plan and working within that plan to excel. And in the end, I really think it's the player that makes a toon effective (or not) much more than simply the AT and powerset choices.
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StainedGlassScarlet - L50 Spines/Inv Scrapper | Badges: 1,396
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Speaking from the point of view of someone who's tried many many different build setups on his own PB, you're both right. Leaving out Nova and/or Dwarf can hurt a lot, but it's not necessarily going to gimp you leaving them out. At the same time, taking the forms might hurt more than help, as you've got to split your slots between human and form specific powers. Either way you go, how well you do will depend entirely on your build layout, and your personal play style with it.|
Originally Posted by Eric_Nelson
I completely disagree, GP. My PB is (due to concept reasons) human-only form (my WS is human/Dwarf) and I think it's a pretty solid toon, offering ranged options nearly as effective as a Blaster, and melee options pretty respectable as well.
I think the bottom line is (like you pointed out) having an overall plan and working within that plan to excel. And in the end, I really think it's the player that makes a toon effective (or not) much more than simply the AT and powerset choices. |
Personally, I view Peacebringers, and to a slightly lesser extent Warshades,(WS less so, because they can solo much more effectively on average than PBs do) as a whole as the "Jack of all Trades; Master of None" ATs... You can spec them to do all kinds of things, but as said above, you really need to focus into one area to excel, or you just water down how effective your build is.
My Peacebringer currently has two builds. A solo build, and a team build.
My solo build is pure Human, with a lot of emphasis on damage and durability,(yay Light Form for the tougher stuff!) up to and including a few IO sets that boost my damage bonus a bit... I haven't finished the build just yet, but I have a perma 20% boost to damage from set bonuses, at present, which helps quite a bit when solo... For me anyways... Also worked in Acrobatics, so I could have at least some hold protection... As a whole, the build works better on teams, but PBs are always going to be better with others than they are solo.
My team build on the other hand, is in essence a "screw damage, I'm support!" build. I took Nova for some damage,(though it's not fantastic damage, with the way my build is divided up) Glowing Touch along with some powers from the medicine pool for Stimulant and Resuscitate,(so I could heal if needed) the Leadership pool for the team buffs,(not to mention Veng) and Dwarf form so I could tank, whether because the actual tank dropped, or there was no other tank to begin with. Granted, this build sucks at soloing, but that's not what I designed it for... Offers quite a bit to a team that has certain spots that need filling on the fly.
In other news, I always find myself slamming my face into my keyboard when I hear of a Kheldian who doesn't know what Void Stalkers/Hunters/Slayers, Quantums, or Shadow Cyst Crystals are...
Even more so over the Cyst Crystals when I have to explain them to an entire team of 50s, as they're typically a bigger threat to non-Kheldians than they are to Kheldians themselves, as we at least have negative energy resistance...
"Wait guys, there's a Cyst Crystal in that next group!" ~Me
"A Crystal what? Ah who cares, pulling that Malta Gunslinger!" ~Over-confident blaster
*Nictus pour out and attack the over-confident blaster, and the rest of the team rushes in to help*
"Anyone have a purple or a blue?" ~OCB
*Looks around at the carnage, thanking the light that he popped Quantum Flight as soon as he read the word "Pulling"*
"Well then, the team's down, only one thing to do now..." ~Me
*Flys far enough away to lose aggro, then uses the Vet Team recall to teleport the team out of the mob of Nictus and angry Malta then does "/em teabag"*
"Next time I tell you guys to wait..." ~Me
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I'm not saying that human only Kheldians are gimped or aren't possible. I've seen them around, and they can work well (again, according to a plan... I played with a WS the other day who seemed to go all human, but stood next to me, the Tank, all the time. He got mezzed a lot and hardly ever broke out his pets, which suggests he didn't have a good plan to me). However, if you really look at both Kheldian powersets, they are designed around taking at least one of the forms... as Shenku said, Kheldians really are the Jack of All Trades in CoX. It's hard to follow through on that design if you're ignoring the forms. |
Originally Posted by Eric_Nelson
I completely disagree, GP. My PB is (due to concept reasons) human-only form (my WS is human/Dwarf) and I think it's a pretty solid toon, offering ranged options nearly as effective as a Blaster, and melee options pretty respectable as well.
I think the bottom line is (like you pointed out) having an overall plan and working within that plan to excel. And in the end, I really think it's the player that makes a toon effective (or not) much more than simply the AT and powerset choices. |
For example, Light Form is nice, but it's not the same as having an effective Dwarf Form, either. It's not up all the time, and you get it at level 38, rather than 20.
Anyway, all human Kheldian builds are kind of like running a Fire/Fire Tanker like a Scrapper, or making a "Blapper." You're trying for something that the AT isn't necessarily designed for, but it can and does work. That's a tribute to the customization this game offers, and I like it. I'm not going to argue that my offensive Fire/Fire Build (no Tough or Weave, with lot's of +damage and +recharge) is going to be a good main tanker, either. Same thing with all human Khelds.
I'd like to try an all human Warshade, as my PB is triform, but I have a hard time getting into Warshades... their soul-sucking powers seem a bit too villainous to me, even if they play rather well for those who use them. Just saying that to show I have nothing against all-human builds... just saying they're not quite going to have all the capabilities of a Kheldian making use of the forms.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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Understood, and your points are all well-taken, GP. And I completely agree with you about the game's level of customization allowing so many combinations, which is especially true for Khelds. (And I can't really get into WS either, for the same reasons you cite. I finally went ahead and bit the bullet and just PL'd her to 50 in AE so I could be done with it already. |
Originally Posted by Grey_Pilgrim
I have nothing against all-human builds... just saying they're not quite going to have all the capabilities of a Kheldian making use of the forms.
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Wait a minute...did someone just refer to you by your character name, and not your forum name? Why would anyone ever do that? :P Hehehe
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Originally Posted by Eric_Nelson
Why thank you, sir! Very kind of you to say!
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And had them not turn out to be complete retards? I mean I'm grouping with level 50 Peacebringers and I'm astounded to find this kind of idiocy in someone who's gotten to level 50 twice. I'm sure I'm just giving ammo to the Anti-AE extremists out there, but I'm can't help but think that I just have to blacklist Kheldians in general.