AE Mission Feedback: Do you give it? Do you get it?

Justice Blues · 08-19-2009 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hydrophidian

I think there are some big issues with the dynamics of the feedback system, so I tend to be very selective in offering my own.

When I find an arc to be, overall, very good, but there's one or two aspects of it that really stick out to me as flaws, I'm inclined to point those things out.

I also tend to give feedback when I've had a real good time with an arc. Particularly if it was a team experience.

Finally, if, based on their activity on these forums, I have a positive impression of the architect, I'll be more likely to give feedback on their work.

But, my basic view is that architects should not be depending on the feedback feature in any way. It's too erratic (wildly varied tastes, preferences, and skill levels), probably too slanted (in general, people seem more inclined to leave positive feedback), and there are many people who either use the feature sparingly or don't use it at all (with good reasons). I think the main source of feedback should be friends/SG mates/fellow authors, with the feedback system serving only as a supplemental to that.

The problem I have with that attitude is first, not everyone has a large group of friends/SGmates in the game, and second, if they do, those people are likely to be too close to the author to be as objective as a complete stranger. Some won't want to hurt a friend's feelings, others already know the story or what the author is attempting, so don't point out problems that others will have following it.

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So my default assumption is that no one really needs my input.

On the contrary, I do need your input. If I want to make my arcs or my writing skills in general better, I need to hear feedback from people. Yes it is good to have first readers, but it is better to have a large variety from people with different tastes. I have fixed mistakes, gotten ideas, and, IMHO, greatly improved my arcs because of feedback both here on the forum and in game. I have also ignored some of it, because it was trying to change the story from what I was telling to something else. (The other stories would probably be very good, but they are not the one I am trying to tell. I might not tell that story well, but it is the one I want to tell.)

I personally do give feedback on arcs I play. I 1-star and quit farms when I hit them, but otherwise I try to give suggestions for improving an arc or problems I see while playing. One thing I have enjoyed when I play is setting the search parameters for "Looking For Feedback" and clicking on the one result search button. Sometimes I don't have much to say in those arcs, others I end up sending 4 or 5 tells about things I see in the arc.

Justice Blues, Tech/Tank, Inv/SS
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Fighting The Future Trilogy
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Psychoti · 08-19-2009 06:41 PM

(((QR)))

I have yet to receive a single piece of feedback on any of my arcs, but I always leave feedback on arcs that I play.

While it's not incredibly detailed, I will say what I feel. If I feel there are too many objectives in a mission, I let them know, if I notice a lot of typos I will say when & where they are if possible, so on and so forth.

I would really like feedback on my "Operation : Clean Streets" arc, but the people I grouped with to complete it didn't even rate it, much less give feedback aside from a quick, "That was fun, thanks" in group chat before quitting and logging.

Edit: Actually, I would love feedback on my "Black Sheep in the Family" arc as well, that one was a blast to write and I really enjoyed playing it. The final EB/AV is a pain in the tuckus, not impossible but very strong for the level range when you're solo. It took me a good 15 minutes to beat him solo on my Cold/Sonic defender, but I do think that was largely because I didn't kill everything on the way to him so kiting was a real beast.

Justice Blues · 08-20-2009 10:14 AM

Psychoti,

Have you hit the MA:Stories & Lore forum in the For Fun! section? There are several people there that will review your arcs and give you feedback, both in their thread and in game. And it gets your arc in front of those of us that read those reviews.

The reviewers all use different criteria, so it is good to ask a lot of them to look at your stuff. I have had everything from a 2 star to a 5 star on various arc reviews, but it is all good, since it gets the arcs in front of people.

Justice Blues, Tech/Tank, Inv/SS
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Fighting The Future Trilogy
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Hydrophidian · 08-20-2009 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justice Blues

The problem I have with that attitude is first, not everyone has a large group of friends/SGmates in the game

A "large group" isn't really required. Two or three people are just fine. Even one is better than none.

Quote:

and second, if they do, those people are likely to be too close to the author to be as objective as a complete stranger. Some won't want to hurt a friend's feelings, others already know the story or what the author is attempting, so don't point out problems that others will have following it.

It seems to me you're making a lot of assumptions here (none of which I've found to be particularly true) in an attempt to remove responsibility from the architect.

If you want testers to be as objective as possible, you just ask them to try to be so. If your friends aren't mature enough to handle that, find someone who is. If you don't want them to know the story first, don't tell them. And if you don't have a test group... form one. Even if it's a PUG (I've been invited to one of those, and I was happy to help).

In short, if an architect wants feedback, I think it's the architect's responsibility to make the effort to get it. Don't expect others make the effort for you. Don't depend on the audience to be your play testers: that's not their responsibility. Good MA feedback should be a happy bonus, not a necessity.

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On the contrary, I do need your input.

Then you've put yourself in an impossible situation, because even if I ever played your arcs, I'm not obligated to give feedback on 'em... and not giving feedback is a perfectly valid choice to make. It's not a bad thing. I'm not playing MA arcs to be your play tester, and to expect that of me is, I think, presumptuous and... well... kinda lazy.

If you genuinely want to improve your arcs, my advice would be to find another way to address this need of yours. And preferably before you publish.

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Yes it is good to have first readers, but it is better to have a large variety from people with different tastes.

I disagree. In my opinion, even the best random feedback is of limited use, due to the lack of an exchange. Testers you can actually have a dialogue with (and preferably while they're actually moving through the content), is, I think, still the best way to polish an arc.

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I have fixed mistakes, gotten ideas, and, IMHO, greatly improved my arcs because of feedback both here on the forum and in game.

So have I. This isn't really relevant to the point, though. I'm not saying feedback gained through the MA system can't be good. It can be. But it can just as easily be of no practical use at all. And, in my experience, it's much more likely to be the latter. Depending on it as the sole source of critique and quality assurance is, I think, sloppy, inefficient, and a disservice to your audience:

* You can't get this feedback unless you publish. If you're depending on this feedback for your polish, that pretty much means you're publishing an unpolished work. You're expecting random players to serve as your quality assurance. Again, that isn't their responsibility, and it's quite possible they have no interest in serving in that capacity. Even if they're interested, they might not be any good at it. Even if they're good at it, one /tell isn't a lot of space to work with for feedback.

* You may not get this feedback at all. If you do get it, it's very likely not to be constructive. If it is constructive, you may not be able to get a dialogue going with the person who offered it.

Best feedback I've received has been due to having a dialogue, even if that dialogue was initiated through the MA system. I think it's also important to note that the most constructive feedback has come from other authors, whether they were friends or strangers.

As for the forums, yes, they're a very helpful tool. They don't have anything to do with the MA feedback system, though. If anything, they're often employed as an alternative to it (which I'd recommend).

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One thing I have enjoyed when I play is setting the search parameters for "Looking For Feedback" and clicking on the one result search button. Sometimes I don't have much to say in those arcs, others I end up sending 4 or 5 tells about things I see in the arc.

That's great and that's your choice. The key word there being: choice.

I'll be inclined to do the same, but when I do, it'll be when I'm in the mood to do it. Sometimes I'm not, and there's nothing wrong with that.

In the end, if an architect is interested in making a quality work, it remains my advice to cultivate a test group rather than depend on MA feedback. Many authors, including myself, would be happy to serve in this capacity.

Just not as a default and not as an obligation.

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Justice Blues · 08-20-2009 04:52 PM

And no place in my post did I say it was an obligation. But the only way people can learn is by getting feedback in some form. Since I want better stories available to play, I give feedback. Because I want to make the stories I create the best I can, I need to get feedback, from as many people as possible.

You seem to be saying that feedback is only useful before your arc is published. So am I correct that everything you have published in the MA has been set to Final status at first publication, and you have not made any changes to anything in you arcs after that first publication? If this is true, my hat is off to you and I freely aknowledge you are a better writer then I am.

I, OTOH, will have to continue to muddle through, getting my stories as polished as possible, then publishing them marked as Looking For Feedback, and seeing what others think about my ideas and how they can be improved.

Justice Blues, Tech/Tank, Inv/SS
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Fighting The Future Trilogy
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GlaziusF · 08-20-2009 06:25 PM

I leave long feedback for everything I play, even if some of it gets a bit stream-of-consciousness at times.

But then, I only play arcs where there's somewhere I can leave long feedback.

I enjoy it whenever someone does the same.

But then, I think everyone wants to read what I write, so there you go.

Hydrophidian · 08-20-2009 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justice Blues

And no place in my post did I say it was an obligation.

Not directly, no, you didn't.

But if you claim you "need" my feedback, and confess to a "problem" with my "attitude", it seems to me that the suggestion of forced feedback can't be too far behind.

Quote:

You seem to be saying that feedback is only useful before your arc is published.

Noop.

What I said was: I think it's a good idea to have arcs tested before publishing, so that you're not depending on the general audience to be your play testers. Arcs can certainly be improved after publishing, but I believe they should be fairly well polished at the point of publication.

Quote:

I, OTOH, will have to continue to muddle through, getting my stories as polished as possible, then publishing them marked as Looking For Feedback, and seeing what others think about my ideas and how they can be improved.

I do the same thing. The difference seems to be, I'm not depending upon and expecting the general audience to be my play testers. I don't think it's a good idea to do that.

So, again, I will assume my feedback is not needed on a published arc.

If an architect finds themselves entirely dependent on that feedback, I would suggest the architect revise their development process, and get people to test their arcs before publishing.

Because, again, not leaving feedback is a perfectly valid choice.

The Cape Radio: You're not super until you put on the Cape!
DJ Enigma's Puzzle Factory: Co* Parody Commercials

Zamuel · 08-25-2009 09:37 PM

Unless it's an obvious farm, I always give feedback when I run an arc. I feel that it's a vested interest for all of us who actually want the quality of stories in the MA to improve to do so.

My Arcs
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Mission Architect Handyman

Xyzyx · 08-26-2009 08:49 AM

I'm the same way. I want the author of a great arc to know that I enjoyed it, and why, and to provide any constructive criticism that I can, so that they are encouraged to continue creating content for everyone to enjoy. I've already heard some "what's the use, nobody plays anything but farms anyway" defeatism, and it would be a shame if it took hold as the conventional wisdom.

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Gryfyn · 09-06-2009 06:44 PM

I leave feedback on almost all arcs I play. If I don't, it's usually because I didn't finish the mission for whatever reason, and don't feel like I can give useful input.

I have only posted one 3-mission arc on the Architect system, and that was just yesterday. I had a ball writing the mission and am sincerely eager for whatever input any players may have. I also know there are so many missions up that the likelihood of mine being played much is kind of slim, even though I have posted it in this forum, and have invited my friends and my supergroup to play it. I am hoping for feedback, but I am not counting on it.

So far, I have one rating, and the player gave me five stars. I am delighted! The person who rated the arc did not leave comments, so I have no idea what the player liked, or whether there is anything they would suggest for improvement. I certainly do not think that a player has an obligation to leave comments or rate missions, but I sure find it helpful and encouraging when they do.

Clave_Dark_5 · 09-07-2009 12:33 AM

I recently had someone play one of my arcs who left me some feedback pointing out that there was an unadvertised EB in it. I sent him a response saying his difficulty must have been set high or something, but he wasn't online at the time. He responded back and I got it the next time I was on - no, it was definitely an EB and he had taken the time to look it up and named it. I went and checked, sure enough, I had accidentally added an EB to a group I had created out of a number of standard-set foes. So I removed it and thanked him twice for the effort he put into letting me know about it.

That was a good player and great feedback.

HeroicGamer2 · 09-15-2009 07:33 PM

I always provide feedback if I enjoy an arc, but after reading the posts here, I think I'll start providing negative feedback also. This is a great thread, very helpful to see what the community is doing with AE feedback!

From the receiving side, I've had some pretty good feedback, but almost no suggestions for improvement. Hopefully that means my arcs are perfect.

Sincerely,
HeroicGamer2