Balancing SoC vs MC?

Here's the deal. We all know that Seeds of Confusion is slightly overpowered, especially in conjunction with Plant's other AoEs and compared to the only power like it anywhere else, Mass Confusion.

One might think that a nerf for SoC would be in order. Something drastic to make it barely a shadow of it's big cousin: Double the recharge, and halve the duration, range and # of targets (though widen the cone to compensate). And then lower its Accuracy, too (which, along with recharge, is the main balance-obliterating portion of SoC's numbers) Maybe even take this a step further and remove/reduce the damage component from Roots. This would definitely make people pause before saying that the set completely obliterates Mind Control (at least, when based on two similar powers)

But is this the only way? Certainly, people who love Plant love it for what it is, and wouldn't be too keen on the nerf bat coming down hard (or at all, even if they did admit it was OP... that's why they like it!). Also, how far down do you bring the numbers before you cross the apparently fine line between "overpowered" and "gimp"? Perhaps a Buff to Mind is the better answer.

For one, reduce the recharge and increase the accuracy on Total Dom and MC. That would balance out one of the main problems with Mind when compared to every other set, and give it a steady stream of containment*. MC in particular should affect an even larger # of targets (say 25) with an increased chance for Overpower criticals. That way, it would claim its place as a Tier 9 power when compared to Seeds.

*: If Plant gets a power that's better in almost every way than a T9 power, then Mind gets to have it's own distinct AoE advantage by having less down time on its hard controls. Fair's fair, especially considering Mind lacks steady containment that's present in almost every other Controller set, as well as the -constant- extra damage and agro mitigation from a pet.

I don't think anyone would argue against the fact that a tier 9 power should be better than a tier 5. The question is, how do we best accomplish this?

Or maybe do nothing. Let "Mind" continue to be undervalued (and underplayed), which only helps them shine more when you do find one. After all, the LAST thing I wanna see is Mind/Kin PL farmers clogging up PI and AE lobbies.

What do you guys think?

(Because we haven't had enough mind vs plant discussions this week =P)

It's understandable that people get ticked off with this conversation, because to be sensible, it has to cut far into an analysis of several sets-- Mind and Plant to begin with, and probably all the sets in general, since relative performance certainly matters, given that game play constitutes a competitive environment for the controller primaries. Yet that conversation is usually too tedious for the majority of people who really just wish things would be "fixed." That said...

When you describe a hypothetical nerf to SoC, I think you go way overboard. That sounds more like a straw man than a serious proposal for bringing SoC into line.

Personally I'm a fan of Mind, Plant, Grav, Fire, and Ice, in varying degrees and for different reasons, but especially Plant and Mind. Still, I think it's a little silly that any conversation about this has to kowtow to the status quo maniacs. Whether Grav of Mind are ever buffed, I think there're things about Plant that need to be reconsidered-- and you name them; the immobs have too much damage and SoC is (slightly) too powerful.

Likewise, whether Plant ever gets a nerf, I'd like to see Mind (and Grav) get a few small improvements to bring them in line with the overall functionality of other sets. Mind's problems do in some ways trace back to the AoE nerf all controllers suffered. Most sets had one AoE total control go to twice the recharge time and half the duration. Mind had BOTH of its AOE total controls-- which were once useable every fight, and stackable with a ST complement, crash up against the defense nerf. Leftover as its fast recharge control was the sucktastic Terrify. Ouch, you know?

One of the problems with this whole scenario, I have often sensed, is the nonsensical emphasis devs seem to have placed on the importance of confuses drawing aggro or not. I take this to be part of the explanation for both SoC's overpoweredness and MC's underpoweredness.

I disagree that there can be any simple analysis like "A tier 9 power should be better than a tier 5 power." Particularly since many, many sets besides blaster/corruptor primaries live and breathe powers from prior to tier 9, and some tier 9s are frankly mediocre.

Anyway, a solution to the problem probably is no closer than a comprehensive look at Mind, Plant, and Grav.

If I were going to propose a solution, I suppose it would go something like:

1) Cut MC's recharge back to 120 seconds. If there's still whining from mind controller players after that, they need to suck it up.

2) Cut back Plant immob damage by 25% and raise end cost by 15% or something along those lines, and boost seeds' recharge up to 90 seconds so its availability is comparable to Flashfire, Stalagmites, Wormhole.

3) Cut the activation time on Propel, raise the damage on Lift to make it comparable to levitate, and modify Dimension Shift so that it is aggro-free, autohits targets with the translucent cosmetic effect, and makes successfully hit-checked targets fully invisible (so they can't be targeted for ST stuff by teammates).

Balance Sets not Powers.

Mind is slightly underpowered, Plant is slightly overpowered.


Also: Agree with Enant. Longer Rech on Seeds, lower on MC. Boom, done.
Of course, I also think that ALL AoE Immobs should do Roots damage.

To be fair, i WAS strawmanning a bit with the numbers. However, I DO honestly think SoC SHOULD affect less targets (like 10 or 12) and have it's acc brought down (UNLESS MCs is brought UP). Cut duration to 27-30 seconds, certainly not "half"... Maybe add a bit of danger by reducing the range so that the character has to be within normal agro range to use the power (so not quite half there, either). If a wider cone is needed, or heck, even making it a full, spherical AoE, that'd be okay to compensate for the lack of range. And yeah, recharge increase, but not by much. 90 seconds seems fair.

I don't know enough about grav to make any balance comments there, but I've seen enough people gripe about it.

TBH, I have absolutely NO problem with how Mind plays/functions... except when we start comparing numbers and functionality. Then it's like "hey waitaminute, not only do i not have my own bufable minion(s), I also have no steady AoE containment, little AoE damage, and what's this? A tier 5 is better than my tier 9? wtf!"

And yeah, ok, so there are quite a few T9s that people don't like... but that's because people don't like drawbacks. It's not that the T9s are functionally WORSE (unlike with SoC vs MC), but that there's a cost associated with using them that discourages using that and only that power. Some of the most powerful powers in the game cause you to "crash" and people hate it. Nukes, Unstoppable, just to name a few. However, they're more than willing to have their run speed, recharge, and damage floored to have half the survivability of other a power like Unstoppable, because most of that can be circumvented with a partner (and Granite is more than tough enough to withstand anything the game can throw at it anyway)... And Granite doesn't crash =) They're willing to do LESS damage with their nuke if it doesn't cause a crash (see rain of arrows) and they call it awesome.

But, I digress. Let's see what we have in store in I16 and GR.. I know the Devs like to tweak powers and only tell us the day the patch notes come out, so maybe it's not too much to hope that the Devs are aware of these disparities and are currently taking a look at them?

Plant is heavily built around Seeds; nerf it and you cripple the set. Mind is strong even without MC, much less with it.

Why would you ever balance two powers directly against each other?

Plant was created after all the other sets; I feel that the Devs were over generous in their numbers to make it attract new people. They also didn't repeat any of the mistakes they made before, and make bad powers. So Plant has no Dimension Shift or Telekinesis style power for example.

As for Seeds, I don't like to compare it next to Mass Confusion because they are not the same. Having said that, I think the original devs knew that Area Effect Confuse is one of the most powerful abilities you can have; not only is everything not attacking you, but they are attacking themselves. Hence its position at the top of Mind Control in place of a pet.

Before Seeds, the only AoE confuse power was Mass Confusion: 34s duration and 240s cooldown.

Seeds kept the 34s duration but as they turned it into a cone, they justified it to themselves to lower the recharge to 60s. However, as the cone size on Seeds is so huge it could be argued that this was a mistake; it isn't really the drawback it was intended to be. Almost a back door way of making it overpowered.

They also didn't seem to factor in the sheer power of confuse; leaving it as a 34s duration on such a fast charging power showed poor judgement by the designers in my view. If it was "Seeds of Strangulation" which held enemies, you can bet the numbers would have been more realistic.

Now, I disagree that Mind is anything but very powerful. I also have no issues with Plant Control really; however I do feel the way Seeds of Confusion was designed shows very poor design skills by the CoV team at the time. Unfortunately, Seeds is so powerful that for me it makes the set boring. You don't really get to play with the other powers much unless you really go out of your way.

If I was the designer, I would have given it the same duration and recharge as disorient powers. That is 14.9s duration 90s recharge, which seems more of a reasonable place to start from.

Well, I dunno if they need to nerf SoC, but I wouldn't complain if they changed the numbers on MC to match Seeds.

>.>

<.<

What?

Meh,

No target notify, 80ft range, 25ft radius aoe, 240 rech, 26 end
vs
Target notify, 50ft range, 60 degree cone, 60rech, 15.6 end

Seeds certainly looks a lot better, but how much value do the devs put on "no target notify"? I'm guessing heaps when weighed against the "risk vs reward" mantra.

I've seen plenty of plant users run up to a spawn and faceplant using seeds because you have to get REALLY close if you want it to hit the ones toward the back. I've never seen a mind troller die from mass confusion.

I'm not saying that in practice seeds doesn't blow MC out of the water (because it does..at least for me), but I'd guess that through the dev's eyes the zero risk that MC carries comes with a hefty cost.

<QR>

Plant is fine, Mind is fine. Now let's turn our attention to Gravity in a PvE situation.

/thread.

Let me preface this by saying my 50 mind/emp controller and 50 plant/fire dom are my favorite characters. I love both sets, possibly my mind controller a little more because that character has better hair.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enantiodromos If I were going to propose a solution, I suppose it would go something like: 1) Cut MC's recharge back to 120 seconds. If there's still whining from mind controller players after that, they need to suck it up.

1) This seems like too much. Three recharges and hasten cut that down to 45 seconds, which is easy to make perma with MC's long duration. Mind does not lean on MC the way plant does. It doesn't need perma confuse, but it does need containment.
I think the main thing mind needs is its "bummer power" TK, to have its end cost reduced (like halved). This would give mind a reliable, if challenging, way to set up containment.

Quote:

2) Cut back Plant immob damage by 25% and raise end cost by 15% or something along those lines, and boost seeds' recharge up to 90 seconds so its availability is comparable to Flashfire, Stalagmites, Wormhole.

2) The immobs do extra damage because they only work near the ground and are the set's only -fly powers. The only place I've found this to actually matter much is pvp, but that's a different discussion.
A 90 second recharge is still easy to make perma, but at least it would reduce plant's pre-so advantage. Maybe shave a little off the duration too (make it 30).

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3) Cut the activation time on Propel, raise the damage on Lift to make it comparable to levitate, and modify Dimension Shift so that it is aggro-free, autohits targets with the translucent cosmetic effect, and makes successfully hit-checked targets fully invisible (so they can't be targeted for ST stuff by teammates).

3) I agree with these except for dimension shift. This wouldn't solve the problem that almost nobody uses foe intangibility (because it usually makes fights last longer, even when your teammates don't waste their attacks). Like (i believe) most people, I have a hard time thinking of a way to make this power appealing without changing its purpose. If it had a short duration (5-10s) and a damage component (make it hit before the intangibility effect), or a debuff that lasts longer than the duration, it may be more popular.

Something you said made me think of this, but I can't remember what it was:
"We can forgive a man for making a useful thing as long as he does not admire it. The only excuse for making a useless thing is that one admires it intensely.
All art is quite useless." -Oscar Wilde