No, my problem is that the character hasn't adapted or shown any sign of progress, remaining stagnant and stale for the most part. It's possible for a character to change. But when a character remains the same....yeah. Not so good.
Which is why I like Marvel's current approach with the Agents of Atlas. They've taken the dated, 50s-style that they originally had and approached it from a different angle. It's still there but it's a deliberate contrast as opposed to Superman where it's not intended to be as such.
Now! This is it! Now is the time to choose! Die and be free of pain or live and fight your sorrow! Now is the time to shape your stories! Your fate is in your hands!
Quote:
Superman is, and always has been, a paragon. The definition of paragon is "an ideal instance; a model of perfection". A paragon cannot change, for if it changes, it ceases to be a paragon. |
Originally Posted by Flea_Mark_Evil
No, my problem is that the character hasn't adapted or shown any sign of progress, remaining stagnant and stale for the most part. It's possible for a character to change.
|
I consume my modern myths through TV and movies, rather than printed pictures, and in those media Supes serves a vital purpose - he is the rock, the unchanging ideal around which the rest of the mythos revolves.
Without Superman, we would not have the ideal towards which all other superheroes strive. Without Superman, the Watchmen would have nothing to counter. Without Superman, all the modern dark, edgy, "real" mythos would mean nothing, because we would not understand what it is that the rebels are rebelling against.
Without Superman, the rest of the mythos means less, because we have lost the golden light at the centre around which the rest of the dark balls of matter revolve.
Like I said, without light, darkness means nothing. The "deep", soul-searching, flawed and failing heroes would have no significance in a world without Superman. We need Superman to remind us what heroes are supposed to be, even if we are currently mired in examining how unrealistic that example is.
Quote:
Y'know, apart from Greek mythology. Or Roman, Egyptian, Buddhist, Hindu.......see where I am going here? Essentially the problem lies more in the setting...DC has an odd setting as each 'city' has its hero (though I will admit I freaking loved the revamped Starman - reluctant heroes are by far more interesting to me.)|
Originally Posted by Eikochan
Without Superman, we would not have the ideal towards which all other superheroes strive. Without Superman, the Watchmen would have nothing to counter. Without Superman, all the modern dark, edgy, "real" mythos would mean nothing, because we would not understand what it is that the rebels are rebelling against.
Without Superman, the rest of the mythos means less, because we have lost the golden light at the centre around which the rest of the dark balls of matter revolve. Like I said, without light, darkness means nothing. The "deep", soul-searching, flawed and failing heroes would have no significance in a world without Superman. We need Superman to remind us what heroes are supposed to be, even if we are currently mired in examining how unrealistic that example is. |
It might just be that particular style.
It's not just Superman I loathe. I'm not fond of Captain Marvel. I'm not fond of the Fantastic Four. Hell, I'm not too fond of anything that started rolling about from the 30s, 40s and 50s onward. I dunno, I'm not an idealist. I liked the flawed ones. Easier to empathise with, easier to like. More human.
Because as nice as the idea of the super hero is...the humanity is always an underlying factor. The moment they start distancing themselves from what they believe in and are protecting they start to lose themselves.
Rawr.
Rawr indeed.
Now! This is it! Now is the time to choose! Die and be free of pain or live and fight your sorrow! Now is the time to shape your stories! Your fate is in your hands!
Quote:
Spider-Man excepted, I find I really don't like the "flawed" heroes. The flaws always seem to be things holding them back from being heroes, rather than them being heroes despite the flaws.
|
Originally Posted by Flea_Mark_Evil
I dunno, I'm not an idealist. I liked the flawed ones. Easier to empathise with, easier to like. More human.
|
Quote:
QFT. And he was also created as an allegory for Jesus. Just fyi. Although Captain America was used MUCH more for this than Supes was.|
Originally Posted by Pogthulu
AARRGGHH!!!!! Supes was created as an American Propoganda tool during WWII!!!
Thats why he stands for Truth, Justice and the AMERICAN way!!! They made him from outer space to quickly explain how he got his powers!!! There is NO reading into his character!!!! God, I hate him...For all his powers he is rather effin boring!!! |
Quote:
| Umm Superman was created in 1932 PogoPogo. Well before WWII. |
LOLz. I had to do a cover recreation of several of these comics when I was working for Bob. I was laughing the whole time. MAN that crap was insane XD
[quote]I don't read comics, but I personally love Superman because he is a Boy Scout. It's something you don't see much any more: a paragon, someone you can truly look up to and want (your children) to emulate.[quote]
Really? I mean, I don't have any children and I'm not going to ever have children (unless I'm in my 50s and get bored and decide to adopt a cute little Korean girl to spoil the **** out of), but as a psycho-babble enthusiast, Superman is a very dangerous role model to give to children.
I say this because...he is the name-holder of several pathologies...none of which lead to "self actualization"....I'm just sayin'....haha
Click for Deviant Art Site - Commission List: OPEN
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Eikochan
Spider-Man excepted, I find I really don't like the "flawed" heroes. The flaws always seem to be things holding them back from being heroes, rather than them being heroes despite the flaws.
|
And that's why I like it. The whole challenge of overcoming the flaw to be a hero. The old school Hulk was very much about this (and this is part of the reason I liked the second Hulk movie) and as mentioned, Spider Man is sort of the posterboy for this whole approach. Hell, go into mythology again. I -love- Journey to the West. I freaking love it. And it is very much about flawed heroes - the Monkey King, Pigsy and Sandy are all very much flawed and overcome these flaws in their own way.
I will admit, by far the most annoying 'flaws' category are the gods damned X-Men. Every. Single. Time. I've come to utterly loathe that entire area over the years. You can have the freak be the hero. It can be done. But sadly not by Marvel. Dark Horse produced something far better with Hellboy.
Now! This is it! Now is the time to choose! Die and be free of pain or live and fight your sorrow! Now is the time to shape your stories! Your fate is in your hands!
I'll say this for Cap though.
CAJONES.
Now! This is it! Now is the time to choose! Die and be free of pain or live and fight your sorrow! Now is the time to shape your stories! Your fate is in your hands!
X-men has lost its 'zing' because it touched upon a lot of the racism back in the day, second class citizens...
That's not in the forefront in the minds of the population these days.
Click for Deviant Art Site - Commission List: OPEN
Quote:
roflcopter!
|
Originally Posted by flea_mark_evil
i'll say this for cap though.
 cajones. |
Click for Deviant Art Site - Commission List: OPEN
I will note, on the subject of movies, that I hated Spider-Man 3. Everyone in the movie was wearing so much moron it was painful. And the retcon was bad too.
Quote:
I loathed Spider-Man, not only for the acting but what it did to Venom. My GOD I hated that. The freaking Wolverine movie then pulled the same stunt with Deadpool.|
Originally Posted by Eikochan
I will note, on the subject of movies, that I hated Spider-Man 3. Everyone in the movie was wearing so much moron it was painful. And the retcon was bad too.
|
SO. MUCH. NERDRAGE.
Now! This is it! Now is the time to choose! Die and be free of pain or live and fight your sorrow! Now is the time to shape your stories! Your fate is in your hands!
((I don't think any comic book character can survive for decades without there being something deeper to him than just four colors and a costume. There has to be something there that captures the imagination of generation after generation. Sure, the DCU has been "rebooted" a few times over the years, but Superman is still Superman, and Batman is still Batman. (I won't say Wonder Woman is still Wonder Woman, because up until the past decade or so, DC hasn't been able to figure out what to do with her.) So there's something to the characters that strikes a chord with readers. These characters are not going away, and at the end of whatever crisis you have, they will be pretty much the same. It might not be your cup of tea, but you don't **** with an icon.
As far as Marvel vs DC goes: I used to be a Marvel fan, with the only DC book that I really loved being Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes. I loved the Roy Thomas Avengers issues where the team consisted of Hawkeye, the Wasp, Goliath, and Hercules. I loved the Kree-Skrull War (probably the first and still the best in-continuity big event ever). I loved Starlin's Captain Marvel, and McGregor's Black Panther and Killraven, and Englehart's Dr. Strange, and Moench's Master of Kung Fu, and Thomas' Conan. Marvel was putting out some edgey stuff in the mid-to-late 70's. Stuff like they haven't put out since. Stuff that would only be published by Vertigo now because it was so far out there.
I even loved the X-Men revival up through the Helfire Club storyline. After that, when there got to be more mutants on earth than humans, it got kinda silly. (Talk about Superman being too powerful -- how come the Mutants were still crying about being oppressed all through the 80's and 90's and the first half of this decade when they clearly had the power to take over? Oh -- I forgot, Prof. X had some Superman-worthy lofty ideals.)
But now Marvel has *every* title wrapped up in this stupid Dark Reign thing, which started with that stupid Civil War thing. I might give them another chance at my dollars when they stop that kinda crap. But probably not. So long as they leave Ultimate Spider-man alone now, that's all I care about.
You'll notice that Final Crisis played out in it's own series and spin-offs without any major disruptions on other titles. They're doing the same with Darkest Night, keeping it mostly in it's own title, the GL books, and in spin-off books. I'm hoping DC has figured out that while big events are fun now and then, having your favorite books hijacked every summer sucks.
As far as propaganda goes, yeah, every single comic book character during WWII was used for propaganda. WWII was a time unlike any we'd ever seen, and I hope we never see again. The whole country had to be mobilized, and mobilized quickly, that on top of just beginning to come out of the Great Depression. The government used everything and everybody for the war machine. Was it a good thing? I'm not going to judge.
Post-Viet-Nam America requires a little more subtle approach as far as propaganda goes, but it's out there, and always will be. Every presidential administration has to sell its message to the people, whether its for war or peace.
Getting back to comic books, and comic book characters...
A good, skilled, imaginative writer can take any character, any setting, and tell a good, compelling story. It's just hard to do when you have to tie your story month-after-month into every other title being published. I'd love to see what the current crop of Marvel and DC writers -- Bendis, Johns, Parker, Willingham, etc, could do if they were given their books and told continuity be damned. That would be awesome.
Okay. This thread is getting lumpy and uncomfortable -- somebody fluff it! 
))
I hate Superman so much that I have dreams where I beat the tar out him for kicks... While quoting W.B. Yeats even.
Good times.
Quote:
I think someone's spent a little too much time looking at Superdickery.
|
Originally Posted by Sorah
[A]s a psycho-babble enthusiast, Superman is a very dangerous role model to give to children.
|
Geoff Johns has become my favorite of the 'new' comic book writers, if ya want to consider him new..His work on Teen Titans and his rebirth of GL- my 2nd favorite behind Batman and now his 'rebirth' of the the Flash- my 3rd favorite btw...I approve of his work whole-heartedly. HOWEVER, Im dissappointed that I havent read Darkest Night yet..Somehow I missed Gl #43 and even though I have th other issues in the storyline to date I wont read them out of order. call me quirky like that but Ill hit the comic book store tomorrrow and hope they got the copy of it in for me.
For the record, my all-time favorite writer of comics is Chris Claremont. LOVED his X-Men stuff..It was a sad day when I read his last issue back in the 90's and didnt know it was his last til I read it. 
Peter David's stuff is great too. And it has nothing to do with the fact that he lives on Long Island also and I see him almost once a year at I-Con. 
-Pogoman, Master of Kick-Fu
-Co-Leader and recruiting officer of the Virtue Honor Guard
- lvl 50 ma/sr scrapper
-Ace O' Diamonds lvl 50 fire/rad controller
and waaaay to many other alts to mention right now
((Geoff Johns is cool because he's taking ancient characters and making them seem fresh.))
Quote:
???
|
Originally Posted by Eikochan
I think someone's spent a little too much time looking at Superdickery.
|
Click for Deviant Art Site - Commission List: OPEN
I think you people don't get (modern) Superman at all.
The idea is that he was a good, honest, wholesome farmboy that never caved or deviated from his code of conduct no matter how much easier it would seem, because, well, he was raised that way and feels (and hopes) that people will respond to his example of living "the golden rule" (do unto others as you would have them do unto you) and that no matter how many times it's thrown back into his face he'll keep trying just for those times where it works.
He's a good honest person that perseveres in a corrupt, decaying world, and hopes that one day, he'll see things change, and keeps going due to those occaisons where he does see people respond properly.
I suggest reading the Manchester Black arc, it pretty much nails Superman IMO.
Also, it's reassuring and comforting to see there's still one character that hasn't just devolved into wallowing in psychopathic-antiheroeness or even been tempted to it. (well, aside from Elseworlds. :P)
I mean, hell.. Marvel had Spider-Man make a deal with the devil.
:Edit: Meanwhile, Supes is -hardly- one of my favorite characters, and I prefer him as a counterpoint in stories that aren't focused on him, normally.
Im a Tim Drake fanboy at heart.
Quote:
Well, not so much anti-Commie as anti-Fascist, fighting a philosophy based on might and power with characters that embodied... might and power. The anti-Japanese stuff had an anti-Yellow Peril tinge, though, but who can blame them, it's not like they considered Asians as people during that era, what with the immigration laws and the internment camps...|
Originally Posted by Sorah
But it was still anti-commie, that was the point. Have you guys ever seen those comics? Those things are HILARIOUSLY racist. I say that, because as an Asian, they really went mean on those Japanese. Cheggit:
|
Bugs Bunny Nips the Nips
Superman: Japoteurs
Popeye the Sailor vs. the Japanese
They were a product of their time, y'know.
Quote:
((Nail. Head. Slammed.))
|
Originally Posted by Haetron
I think you people don't get (modern) Superman at all.
The idea is that he was a good, honest, wholesome farmboy that never caved or deviated from his code of conduct no matter how much easier it would seem, because, well, he was raised that way and feels (and hopes) that people will respond to his example of living "the golden rule" (do unto others as you would have them do unto you) and that no matter how many times it's thrown back into his face he'll keep trying just for those times where it works. He's a good honest person that perseveres in a corrupt, decaying world, and hopes that one day, he'll see things change, and keeps going due to those occaisons where he does see people respond properly. I suggest reading the Manchester Black arc, it pretty much nails Superman IMO. Also, it's reassuring and comforting to see there's still one character that hasn't just devolved into wallowing in psychopathic-antiheroeness or even been tempted to it. (well, aside from Elseworlds. :P) I mean, hell.. Marvel had Spider-Man make a deal with the devil. :Edit: Meanwhile, Supes is -hardly- one of my favorite characters, and I prefer him as a counterpoint in stories that aren't focused on him, normally. Im a Tim Drake fanboy at heart. |
Quote:
Not just racism, actually, just any kind of minority. That's one of the things I liked about Bryan Singer's treatment in the first movie, blatantly linking it to homosexuality in his interpretation of it.
|
Originally Posted by Sorah
X-men has lost its 'zing' because it touched upon a lot of the racism back in the day, second class citizens...
That's not in the forefront in the minds of the population these days. |
I've always thought:
Superman - Extended Metaphor for America's ability to overcome anything.
Batman - Extended Metaphor for Humanity's ability to overcome anything.
What about Batman? He's nearly as old.
I recall they tried killing Superman back in the 90s, when Batman was getting broken by Bane and going all Dark Knight-y, but I don't recall that working out too well for Superman sales.
I don't read comics, but I personally love Superman because he is a Boy Scout. It's something you don't see much any more: a paragon, someone you can truly look up to and want (your children) to emulate.
The real world has enough flawed heroes. Fiction is just that - fiction. It's supposed to be unrealistic. If we can't have perfect paragons of purity in our fiction, where can we rest our ideals? Upon what pedestal can we place our hopes and dreams for the future, if not our fiction?
Super heroes are modern-day myths. They serve the same role for us that stories of Hercules and the gods did for Ancient Greece, or that so much folk-lore, fairy-tale, and even religious iconography has done for people throughout time. There is room in that myth for the darker tones and themes, but why does it all have to be that way?
Without light, darkness means nothing.