Anti-heroes, like "WWE: Attitude" belong in the 90s or in niche characters like the punisher that serve a given function. RDJ's Iron Man is the perfect example of what people are looking for in the superhero mythos: a guy who has many sides, but is ultimately a hero. He also has CHARM...something superheroes used to have. But something that no hero in comics (except Spiderman / Green Arrow and others of their ilk) seems to have because everything IS SO SUPER DUPER SRS! If half the stuff that happens in comics happened on a regular basis in the real world I guarantee people would not take it as seriously as half the superheroes do.
In a slightly unrelated note - it's my opinion that superheroes have gone from being extensions of role models to young boys, to actually being the young boys themselves. What I mean by this is that superheroes used to be all about teaching kids certain moral ideas and help them grow and be better people. Now superheroes "relate" to their audience and try to personify them.
Golden age:
Jimmy: Man if I had powers I'd kick that bully's ***!
Superhero: No Jimmy! Violence is never the answer! Great powers beget great responsabilities.
Jimmy: Jeepers mister! You're right! He's probably just angry because he is poor!
Superhero: That's right Jimmy! And as we all know...poor people are people too!
Modern Age:
Jimmy: Man if I had powers i'd kick that bully's ***.
Superhero: Morality is subjective. If you don't kill him he'll eventually kill you. I want you to believe this Jimmy, let it become the doctrine you live your life by. And upon that moment where you have the oppurtunity to kill him...I want you to wimp out in attempt to appear moralistic.
Jimmy: Wait so should I kill him?
Superhero: Yes and no. It's complicated. BECAUSE I HAVE DEPTH MY ACTIONS AND MORALES OFTEN CONFLICT.
Jimmy: So...um...what should I do?
Superhero: Look into your heart Jimmy. Only it can tell you the answers.
Jimmy: But I could do that before...you've not taught me anything!
Superhero: I DON'T UNDERSTAND PHILOSOPHY OKAY I JUST WRITE COMIC BOOKS LEAVE ME ALONE!!!!!
Jimmy: Dude you just broke the fourth wall.
lol, Xan..no wonder I cat get published!! my heroes are all old school!!! 
-Pogoman, Master of Kick-Fu
-Co-Leader and recruiting officer of the Virtue Honor Guard
- lvl 50 ma/sr scrapper
-Ace O' Diamonds lvl 50 fire/rad controller
and waaaay to many other alts to mention right now
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((This is what happened to comics in the 50's. In the 30's and 40's you had characters like the Submariner who would often kill to promote his own agenda, or the Human Torch who had no qualms about applying lethal force to evil-doers. And then there was the Spectre who would have had no problem offing Jimmy's bully and sending his soul to it's infernal reward. I even remember Batman dropping a thug off of a high-rise girder in a pre-Robin story. In the 50's, all the violent comics were either cancelled or changed to more kid-friendly concepts. This was due to a variety of reasons, not the least of which was the Seduction of the Innocent controversy that helped lead to the CCA. It wasn't until the 70's that comics once again took a more complex world view, with moral ambiguity and all that good stuff.|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
Anti-heroes, like "WWE: Attitude" belong in the 90s or in niche characters like the punisher that serve a given function. RDJ's Iron Man is the perfect example of what people are looking for in the superhero mythos: a guy who has many sides, but is ultimately a hero. He also has CHARM...something superheroes used to have. But something that no hero in comics (except Spiderman / Green Arrow and others of their ilk) seems to have because everything IS SO SUPER DUPER SRS! If half the stuff that happens in comics happened on a regular basis in the real world I guarantee people would not take it as seriously as half the superheroes do.
In a slightly unrelated note - it's my opinion that superheroes have gone from being extensions of role models to young boys, to actually being the young boys themselves. What I mean by this is that superheroes used to be all about teaching kids certain moral ideas and help them grow and be better people. Now superheroes "relate" to their audience and try to personify them. Golden age: Jimmy: Man if I had powers I'd kick that bully's ***! Superhero: No Jimmy! Violence is never the answer! Great powers beget great responsabilities. Jimmy: Jeepers mister! You're right! He's probably just angry because he is poor! Superhero: That's right Jimmy! And as we all know...poor people are people too! |
I do think that way too many times the writer's voice speaks louder than the character's voice. Batman/Bruce Wayne's character should be consistent, no matter who's writing him, but that's often not the case. Or what also happens is that the writer, in striving for that consistent voice, is only able to bring out certain aspects of the character, such as only having the brooding Batman/Bruce Wayne, and not the highly intelligent, accomplished, ladies man side of him. Goes back to my assertion that writing is as much craft as art.
))
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Lmao! Brilliant.
And Xan, you killed me with that comparison...and Rei's response was perfect.
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Mrr? Gods damnit, this thread will not die! Ah well.
Depends on the code of morality. And this is where it gets complicated. Characters without codes tend to die off quick. Heroes with their own codes (their own, not someone else's) that stick rigidly to them form the foundation of the anti hero.
Superman is just a dick.
Batman's not much better. But can breathe in space.
Now! This is it! Now is the time to choose! Die and be free of pain or live and fight your sorrow! Now is the time to shape your stories! Your fate is in your hands!
Also, for the record....
Alignment-wise, Rorschach is Lawful Good.
People will now point out many actions that would countermand this until you realise the fatal flaw with traditional D & D alignment systems is that they are traditionally based on a neutral or good aligned setting, which Moore's version of Nixon's America clearly isn't. The setting in itself can be seen as closer aligned to Lawful or Neutral Evil - it is clearly self-centred and actively works against those within it. Rorschach's personal code is clearly Lawful and clearly Good as he is working by any means necessary to help and protect people.
Image time!
Now! This is it! Now is the time to choose! Die and be free of pain or live and fight your sorrow! Now is the time to shape your stories! Your fate is in your hands!
I am not a goon.
Invincible is the bomb.
I would have gone to see MM for free.
That is all.
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"Any means necessary" explicitly excludes "Good". Good will not employ "any means necessary". Good will only employ "Good" means. |
Originally Posted by Flea_Mark_Evil
Rorschach's personal code is clearly Lawful and clearly Good as he is working by any means necessary to help and protect people.
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A strict upholder of society and civilisation will torture to save the lives of millions. He is lawful neutral.
A Paladin will never torture, no matter the outcome of not torturing. He will not cross the line past good to stoop to an evil act, no matter how many it will save. He will find another way, or he will die trying. He is Lawful Good.
That's the problem with modern heroes (and Alan Moore may, in fact, be the instigator of this downfall); they no longer cling to "Good", viewing their moral code and fibre - the very things that made them heroes, that made them worthy of the name - as weaknesses, rather than strengths. A true hero knows that his morals are more than a crutch; they're the very foundation of his being.
A hero without morals, without a code, is a villain.
Their moral codes are both strengths AND weaknesses. How many times has Batman been taunted by the Joker about his refusal to kill him, didn't he even beg to be killed once as he WOULD go on killing people? May be thinking of a different villian. Maybe TwoFace.
Happily in the comics world, the hero can cling to their moral code and not get dinged for it quite so much as in more 'modern' comics.
Let us stifle under mud at the pond's edge
and affirm that it is fitting
and delicious to lose everything. ~ Donald Hall
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Completely disagree. I'm just sayin'. :P I'd go into more detail, but I gotta drive my roomie to the airport haha
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Originally Posted by Flea_Mark_Evil
Mrr? Gods damnit, this thread will not die! Ah well.
Depends on the code of morality. And this is where it gets complicated. Characters without codes tend to die off quick. Heroes with their own codes (their own, not someone else's) that stick rigidly to them form the foundation of the anti hero. Superman is just a dick. Batman's not much better. But can breathe in space. |
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qft.
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Originally Posted by eikochan
"any means necessary" explicitly excludes "good". Good will not employ "any means necessary". Good will only employ "good" means.
A strict upholder of society and civilisation will torture to save the lives of millions. He is lawful neutral. A paladin will never torture, no matter the outcome of not torturing. He will not cross the line past good to stoop to an evil act, no matter how many it will save. He will find another way, or he will die trying. He is lawful good. That's the problem with modern heroes (and alan moore may, in fact, be the instigator of this downfall); they no longer cling to "good", viewing their moral code and fibre - the very things that made them heroes, that made them worthy of the name - as weaknesses, rather than strengths. A true hero knows that his morals are more than a crutch; they're the very foundation of his being. A hero without morals, without a code, is a villain. |
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I just sort of stare blankly at the whole Pre-Post-Post-Post-Super-Sub-Inverse-Modernism list of hero vs. antihero distinctions and then roll characters with superpowers who fight crime.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
Superman just always came across as shallow for me. I mean, he's all for truth, justice, ect., but why? Cause he's the goodguy? There really hasn't been any development beyond he's good for the sake of good..
Don't say I'm out of touch with this rampant chaos your reality
Evilly Yours, Fey Bot/Trap MM
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I'm fairly certain it's well established in the Superman mythos that he stands up for truth, justice, and humanity because he views himself as the protector of Earth. Especially after conversations with the memory of his real father that more or less said just that. |
Originally Posted by FeyDuex
Superman just always came across as shallow for me. I mean, he's all for truth, justice, ect., but why? Cause he's the goodguy? There really hasn't been any development beyond he's good for the sake of good..
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Maybe it's a modern invention that didn't come around until the 70s and the first Superman movie, but Superman's reasons have never seemed nebulous in my memory. Superman sees so much to be valued and praised in the human spirit, so much so that he longs to be human himself, but since he shall ever be Kryptonian, the least he can do is defend humanity from those that would prey upon it (even those that are human themselves.)
That alignment poster is way off. Rorschach is not good anything. He threw an innocent man down an elevator shaft and killed him.
Heroes : Angrem (50 Stone tank), Exo Inferis (50 Fire blaster), Exo Proteus (50 ill/emp), IceVengance (50 cold defender)
Villains : AtomBomb (50 Rad/Kin corruptor), Aleks (50 SS/Inv brute), StoneLethal (50 EM/Stone brute), Davroz (50 Bots/Dark mastermind)
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Originally Posted by Eikochan
I'm fairly certain it's well established in the Superman mythos that he stands up for truth, justice, and humanity because he views himself as the protector of Earth. Especially after conversations with the memory of his real father that more or less said just that.
Maybe it's a modern invention that didn't come around until the 70s and the first Superman movie, but Superman's reasons have never seemed nebulous in my memory. Superman sees so much to be valued and praised in the human spirit, so much so that he longs to be human himself, but since he shall ever be Kryptonian, the least he can do is defend humanity from those that would prey upon it (even those that are human themselves.) |
((Nail. Head. Pounded.))
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AARRGGHH!!!!! Supes was created as an American Propoganda tool during WWII!!! |
Originally Posted by Eikochan
I'm fairly certain it's well established in the Superman mythos that he stands up for truth, justice, and humanity because he views himself as the protector of Earth. Especially after conversations with the memory of his real father that more or less said just that.
Maybe it's a modern invention that didn't come around until the 70s and the first Superman movie, but Superman's reasons have never seemed nebulous in my memory. Superman sees so much to be valued and praised in the human spirit, so much so that he longs to be human himself, but since he shall ever be Kryptonian, the least he can do is defend humanity from those that would prey upon it (even those that are human themselves.) |
Thats why he stands for Truth, Justice and the AMERICAN way!!!
They made him from outer space to quickly explain how he got his powers!!! There is NO reading into his character!!!!
God, I hate him...For all his powers he is rather effin boring!!!
-Pogoman, Master of Kick-Fu
-Co-Leader and recruiting officer of the Virtue Honor Guard
- lvl 50 ma/sr scrapper
-Ace O' Diamonds lvl 50 fire/rad controller
and waaaay to many other alts to mention right now
Umm Superman was created in 1932 PogoPogo. Well before WWII.
Heroes : Angrem (50 Stone tank), Exo Inferis (50 Fire blaster), Exo Proteus (50 ill/emp), IceVengance (50 cold defender)
Villains : AtomBomb (50 Rad/Kin corruptor), Aleks (50 SS/Inv brute), StoneLethal (50 EM/Stone brute), Davroz (50 Bots/Dark mastermind)
Quote:
I'm just going to pretend you didn't post this. |
Originally Posted by Pogthulu
Stuff
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Originally Posted by Fedor
Umm Superman was created in 1932 PogoPogo. Well before WWII.
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Doesn't mean he wasn't used as a propoganda machine. True, not as blatant as Captain America.....but....
Now! This is it! Now is the time to choose! Die and be free of pain or live and fight your sorrow! Now is the time to shape your stories! Your fate is in your hands!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fedor
Umm Superman was created in 1932 PogoPogo. Well before WWII.
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yes you're right about that!! but everything else I said is true about him!!
times in America were tough at this time. he was suppossed to make Americans feel good about themselves.
((sorry I got a headache about half an hour before I wrote the original thingamajig above))
-Pogoman, Master of Kick-Fu
-Co-Leader and recruiting officer of the Virtue Honor Guard
- lvl 50 ma/sr scrapper
-Ace O' Diamonds lvl 50 fire/rad controller
and waaaay to many other alts to mention right now
My problem with Superman is a fairly simple one.
The Deus Ex factor.
Seriously. This guy has NO problems. He fixes everything and somehow all those around him have failed to put two and two together after how many years? I just....hate that. I hate the fact that companys have golden cash cows that they milk whenever they can. Marvel drove me insane with the multiple Wolverine syndrome....which is parodied quite well.
Now! This is it! Now is the time to choose! Die and be free of pain or live and fight your sorrow! Now is the time to shape your stories! Your fate is in your hands!
Yeah I agree on that. I think it Supes has come cracks in the facade he could be fascinating. Look at Strazcynski's treatment of Hyperion for a good example or the first couple issues of the End League.
Superman types who become disenchanted with taking care of such flawed humans. If Supes can hear everything, then he is constantly listening to humanities worst sins and evil plottings. He looks at us and sees limited creatures constantly trying to do harm to one another. Why does Supes like people? Shouldn't he hate us, just a little bit. Or shouldn't the pressure of BEING Superman get to him somehow?
Heroes : Angrem (50 Stone tank), Exo Inferis (50 Fire blaster), Exo Proteus (50 ill/emp), IceVengance (50 cold defender)
Villains : AtomBomb (50 Rad/Kin corruptor), Aleks (50 SS/Inv brute), StoneLethal (50 EM/Stone brute), Davroz (50 Bots/Dark mastermind)
Totally unrelated but I wanted to share this hilarity...
I just scored free multiple tickets to a Marilyn Manson concert here in Los Angeles for tomorrow night...
Of all my friends, I could only find ONE person to go with me. I mean, I'm going for nostalgia purposes (was totally into Manson when I was a kid)...but still...ONE PERSON ONLY?! To go to a concert for FREE? LOL!
This has been a hilarious experience XD Life is freaking awesome. Hahahahahahaha
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