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SR has higher SO-enhanced numbers than SD. This means that SD is a hell of a lot more expensive (inf and slotwise) to cap than SR. SR gets the scaling resistance thing, and it also gets the +20% hasten power that also increases runspeed and protects against slows strongly, which is quite nice.|
Originally Posted by camocanine
So I guess the question I really want to ask is: is SR really as inferior to SD as the numbers appear at face value? Do the higher base Debuff Resistances really balance it out adequately, or is there good reason why so many people are flocking to the boards to discus the latest trends in SS/SD while the SS/SR hype seems to have all but completely fizzled away?
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Why is SD so popular on the boards right now? Some guesses:
1. It's NEWER.
2. SD presents more of a build challenge than SR. This means that there's more cause to discuss it. In the beginning, SD looked disappointing because it was hard to build for. Now, the correct foundation to make a solid shielder is commonly known on this forum
(Spoilers: Obliteration, Touch of Deathx2, Mako'sx1, Steadfast Unique, Gaussian's, Zephyrx2).
3. It's NEWER.
4. It presents interesting offensive bonuses.
5. It's NEWER.
I know I originally passed SD up because it seemed really weak SO'd. After figuring out how easy it was to stack defense using IO's on a blaster, I gave SD another chance. Now shields is probably my favorite secondary. I've also always thought that, while being really strong, Super Reflexes was boring. Then again, I also think Willpower is boring. It must be the lack of offensive options.
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| Where can I find info on the variable resistance buffs provided by the SR passives?! |
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That pretty well sums it up. I have a lvl 50 SR scrapper so I wanted to try Shields on my brute. As Kepa said, SR is easier to get to the soft cap and is WAY more survivable due to much stronger def debuff resists and that wonderful sliding damage resistance. And let's not forget that Quickness gives you the same +Recharge as 2 purple sets or 3 LotG recharges (roughly). |
Originally Posted by Kepaaaaaaaaaaaaa
1. It's NEWER. 4. It presents interesting offensive bonuses. |
On the other hand, with Shields you get a damage buff/enemy damage debuff/taunt aura with AAO and an extremely high damage PBAoE in Shield Charge. The extra damage, more than anything else, is what I believe makes it the FotM for min-maxers.
My Shields brute is currently my favorite character but I must say if things start to go bad he can go from god-mode to dead extremely fast. With SR you typically get more time to react in a debuff situation because your def won't drop as quickly and each successive hit damages you less and less as the damage resistance ramps up.
I don't know why SR isn't more popular with Brutes. Its advantages stack up very well when compared to Shields.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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Um, not really sure what you mean by this, as your offensive options go up a lot when you don't have to worry about end. I have pretty much lost interest in my SS/SD because it burns end so fast, and slows me down a ton. It makes my DA tank(pre IOs) look end efficient by comparison. Granted, no pretty shield charge or AAO stacked with rage, but overall survivability is much higher with the right build in WP. Admittedly, ss/sd hits hard as hell when I do have end. |
Originally Posted by Kepaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Then again, I also think Willpower is boring. It must be the lack of offensive options.
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Originally Posted by Kepaaaaaaaaaaaaa
A quick search on Google brought up a cached post from the old forums that mentioned about 54%-60% resistance to all by the time you were nearly dead.
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Both sets have a lot to offer, but yeah, like Kep said, SD is new, and whats more, people figured out how to turn it into a real beast.
The additional damage from AAO also makes it more desirable to a lot of people. I think you will see it kinda kick down some soon tho. With the changes coming to Ela, I see a new FoTM coming.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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Originally Posted by _Deth_
Um, not really sure what you mean by this, as your offensive options go up a lot when you don't have to worry about end. I have pretty much lost interest in my SS/SD because it burns end so fast, and slows me down a ton. It makes my DA tank(pre IOs) look end efficient by comparison. Granted, no pretty shield charge or AAO stacked with rage, but overall survivability is much higher with the right build in WP. Admittedly, ss/sd hits hard as hell when I do have end.
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Maybe a better way to put it would have been "flashy offensive toys". WP gives you more stamina and SR gives you more global hasten, which are both great and make your other attacks stronger. But neither set gives you an aura that makes orange numbers spew everywhere, or a massive AOE knockdown that makes orange numbers spew everywhere. As such, I could never hold interest in either past the mid 40's or so. Personal preference.
Additionally, I never really have problems with endurance, especially not as a brute. Quick recovery is therefore not a great power for me. I'd rather have a combination that's endurance heavy that offers bonuses to make up for a heavy endurance use drawback. A drawback that can be circumvented with slotting and later IO bonuses doesn't seem like a drawback so much as a build challenge to squash.
Rise to the Challenge is pretty enviable, though. So is the early, under appreciated value of High Pain Tolerance combined with Fast Healing. Whenever I want to test a new primary, I end up pairing it with /Willpower for that reason.
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| The additional damage from AAO also makes it more desirable to a lot of people. I think you will see it kinda kick down some soon tho. With the changes coming to Ela, I see a new FoTM coming. |
Depends on how drastic the changes end up being. I'm still not even sure if the recharge/regen is going to be enhanceable on that new power. It would be really nice, as ELA always felt like the strongest secondary in drastic, rare situations. I eventually shelved my DM/ELA because I was very disappointed in its everyday performance. Sepiatone flashbacks of getting obliterated by Romans or Nemesis in 8 man groups unless I had the tier 9 up.
But yeah, safe money is on people flocking to /ELA because it's going to be (sort of, technically) the new set.
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I would rather put the slots in other places, but yeah, personal preference. |
Originally Posted by Kepaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Additionally, I never really have problems with endurance, especially not as a brute. Quick recovery is therefore not a great power for me. I'd rather have a combination that's endurance heavy that offers bonuses to make up for a heavy endurance use drawback. A drawback that can be circumvented with slotting and later IO bonuses doesn't seem like a drawback so much as a build challenge to squash.
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Originally Posted by Kepaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Depends on how drastic the changes end up being. I'm still not even sure if the recharge/regen is going to be enhanceable on that new power. It would be really nice, as ELA always felt like the strongest secondary in drastic, rare situations. I eventually shelved my DM/ELA because I was very disappointed in its everyday performance. Sepiatone flashbacks of getting obliterated by Romans or Nemesis in 8 man groups unless I had the tier 9 up.
But yeah, safe money is on people flocking to /ELA because it's going to be (sort of, technically) the new set. |
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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I actually took it on my shelved stone/elec brute. Granted he is only lvl 31 and i was planning on respec'ing out later. I am thinking though when this change goes live, my stone/elec might come out of retirement
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Originally Posted by _Deth_
With stam, it was pointless to take it.
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yeah, leveling its not bad, but once you get power sink, CP becomes superfluous. Now that it is changing, I think a lot of elecs will be coming out of the attic.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
I'm not so sure about that. I have my own SM/Elec at 50 and it's never been the lack of a heal that dissappointed me (I have a well slotted aid self). It was the one trick nature of the secondary: Resist damage and kill everything faster than it kills you. She's the only brute I have at 50 that can indeed get killed by longbow eagle death squads continuously dumping autofire into her. A heal every 2 minutes, before recharge, won't help with that. I've had bank runs where I've had to pop 3 greens in 10 seconds to deal with being on fire. My other 50s laugh at this situation (wp basks in the flames, so does the fire armor before hitting his 20 second recharge healing flames, dark contemptuously hits dark regen, stone is barely aware he's fighting).
As for the OP... for me, what killed my SS/SR was the endurance drain. Rage's crashing combined with the global recharge bonus flattened my blue bar. My slotting was one acc, two end reduction, and 3 damage when I finally shelved him, and it still wasn't enough. Plus there was always the Sword of Damocles - Castle fixing it so that stacking rage didn't negate the hefty defense penalty - hanging over his head.
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
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WP has high regen, pumped up being in a group. Fire is highly resistant to........fire. Dark has a monster of a heal to deal with the incoming damage. For not liking your /ElA for reasons other than a heal, the big difference between it and the examples you gave are.........a heal.|
Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
I've had bank runs where I've had to pop 3 greens in 10 seconds to deal with being on fire. My other 50s laugh at this situation (wp basks in the flames, so does the fire armor before hitting his 20 second recharge healing flames, dark contemptuously hits dark regen, stone is barely aware he's fighting).
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Aid self doesn't count. The heal itself is garbage, the recharge is terrible, and if you get interrupted, you still get hit with the end cost.
You also used it's biggest hole for your example. Great resistance to s/l/e/n, crappy def to f/c. With proper slotting and IOs, the addition of a heal turns Ela into a beast.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
I have an SS/SR brute which I enjoy quite a bit. The only issue I have had is when you have those moments when the rolls are just not in your favor and there is no heal to save your bacon. However despite that because Foot Stomp ( soon to be changed to Ground Punch YAY !!! ) offers good mitigation my brute can usually survive quite nicely. I tried to build in as much defense and regen as possible and I have found that helps me a lot and I always have Elude in the bag when I need it. Its a fun build. There are many good sets. I have an Elec/Shield and intend to make a Claws/WP or Claws/Electric when it comes out. I try to make a build effective but ultimately for me it has to be fun.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Yeah, the flaws in my examples did occur to me after I'd posted. 
And without toughness, Elec does NOT have great resistance to smash/lethal. It's better than dark armor or fire armors, yes, but not by enough to overshadow their secondary defense of potent self heals.
After playing every other brute secondary I've been spoiled by the resiliance of layered defenses. Resistance + defense. Resistance + heal. Resistance + defense + regen. Of course, a case can be made for sapping being Electric's secondary defense, and it works really, really well against even con enemies - but most brutes don't need to worry about even con enemies at all. It doesn't scale well against the most potent threats.
Edit: ANd to tie into the OP better... I dislike Super Reflexes for the same reason. It's all Defense. SR has the scaling resists, though, which are better than nothing.
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
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That is the thing, the hole of a good self heal is being filled. And I agree, sapping used to be very useful as a mitigation tool, now it is crap. When ElA was still new, my gf and I sapped Deathsurge to 0 end and kept him there til more people showed up to help us kill him. |
Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
Yeah, the flaws in my examples did occur to me after I'd posted.
And without toughness, Elec does NOT have great resistance to smash/lethal. It's better than dark armor or fire armors, yes, but not by enough to overshadow their secondary defense of potent self heals. After playing every other brute secondary I've been spoiled by the resiliance of layered defenses. Resistance + defense. Resistance + heal. Resistance + defense + regen. Of course, a case can be made for sapping being Electric's secondary defense, and it works really, really well against even con enemies - but most brutes don't need to worry about even con enemies at all. It doesn't scale well against the most potent threats. Edit: ANd to tie into the OP better... I dislike Super Reflexes for the same reason. It's all Defense. SR has the scaling resists, though, which are better than nothing. |
Also, I always assume Tough in brute builds. Weave too. Yeah, I know, some folks don't take them, but I always do, and with tough you are talking about +or-60% resistance to S/L, which is better than anything short of Inv and Stone.
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
I try to make a build effective but ultimately for me it has to be fun.
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Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
I just finished lvl'ing an elec/sr brute to 50 and I enjoyed it. I have several /SRs blue side but the red side was a little bit more challenging. I admit that I do have aid self as a heal and get around the being hit part via the 2 PBOA knockdowns with elec. A mob on its back can't hit me so I'm able to heal between the attacks.
I know this is about SR being a passed fad, but have you tried finding an Energy Aura thread? I think EA is left far back in the dust compared to SR. 
I have a lvl 37 SS/SR, But I am thinking of rerolling it. One reason, I already softcap a SR scrapper. Another with /ELA getting a buff, my SS/ELA my be played again. I don't like repeating the same set on the same AT. I wait till I open beta.
It did play fine and with a few IO and power choices it very nice. I might do /SR on a brute but with claws.
NeoSaturn-L50 Kat/Regen Scrapper
Paragon Family Swift
NeoSaturn's Deviations
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It also has some really cool looking shields. Such costume parts that you can't get any other way are a major attraction of rolling a Shield character for many people I think.
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Originally Posted by Kepaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Why is SD so popular on the boards right now? Some guesses:
1. It's NEWER. 2. SD presents more of a build challenge than SR. This means that there's more cause to discuss it. In the beginning, SD looked disappointing because it was hard to build for. Now, the correct foundation to make a solid shielder is commonly known on this forum (Spoilers: Obliteration, Touch of Deathx2, Mako'sx1, Steadfast Unique, Gaussian's, Zephyrx2). 3. It's NEWER. 4. It presents interesting offensive bonuses. 5. It's NEWER. |
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
I have both an SS/SR Brute at 50 and an SS/SD at 50. Both are extremely powerful sets. However, the Shield-user is just stronger. He has the same amount of DDR, enough recharge for Quickness not to matter, and can take a hit better because of his higher life and resistances. And if he gets in trouble, he can pop Demonic and OWtS and cap smashing/lethal resistance.
However, the SS/SR was much less expensive to take to the cap. I'd estimate the cost at less than 100 million. An SS/SD really doesn't reach the type of performance I'm talking about until it has 300-500 mil at a minimum in it.
TW/Elec Optimization
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Don't forget that Elec is immune to Endurance Drain, has Conserve Power (soon to be a self heal) and Power Sink to help the blue bar. All the other secondaries are quite good at depleting Endurance, but Electric Armor is best for keeping it topped off.|
Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
After playing every other brute secondary I've been spoiled by the resiliance of layered defenses. Resistance + defense. Resistance + heal. Resistance + defense + regen. Of course, a case can be made for sapping being Electric's secondary defense, and it works really, really well against even con enemies - but most brutes don't need to worry about even con enemies at all. It doesn't scale well against the most potent threats.
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Originally Posted by _Deth_
Also, I always assume Tough in brute builds. Weave too. Yeah, I know, some folks don't take them, but I always do, and with tough you are talking about +or-60% resistance to S/L, which is better than anything short of Inv and Stone.
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Originally Posted by KorrectMethod
I know this is about SR being a passed fad, but have you tried finding an Energy Aura thread? I think EA is left far back in the dust compared to SR.
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If you scrape the very bottom of the barrel, you'll find a few layers down that there is, buried in the muck, another barrel, and at the bottom of that one you'll find Energy Aura.
Ok, let me start by saying up front that I've been a scrapper fan for a long time, but have only recently started playing brutes. HOLY COW!!! I remember there being quite a stir over the proliferation of SR to brutes and a fairly wide spread excitement at the prospect of combining SS and SR into some sort of monstrous, uber-build. So imagine my confusion when I finally decide to give it a try and come to find out that while there are TONS of threads on SD defense heavy SS builds, SS/SR builds are almost unmentioned anywhere...
I have played around with mids to get an idea of what comparison could be made between the two and was shocked that the ONLY areas where SR seemed to hold any superiority with similar IO slottings were Defense Debuff Resistance, Recharge Debuff Resistance, Perception Debuff Resistance, Perception, and the obvious Haste. In all honesty, it almost seems like SD got all of the important aspects of SR ALONG WITH somewhere under half of the more advantageous aspects of WP. So I guess the question I really want to ask is: is SR really as inferior to SD as the numbers appear at face value? Do the higher base Debuff Resistances really balance it out adequately, or is there good reason why so many people are flocking to the boards to discus the latest trends in SS/SD while the SS/SR hype seems to have all but completely fizzled away?
P.S. Come to think of it, there is one other thing I'd like to know. This has bugged me since I first started really playing around with the min/maxxing of my first 50(Claws/SR Scrapper), Where can I find info on the variable resistance buffs provided by the SR passives?! I've searched everywhere I can think of and the only remaining alternative seems to be to build a /SR brute up to 28 and experiment just to find out; which clearly isn't worth it... Anyone have a better alternative or perhaps already have the numbers and mechanics of their inner workings on hand?
More to kill here. -- Kicks N Giggles(Arch/Elect Blaster)
Arrest not kill -- Anonymous
Funny thing, I seem to have left my handcuff arrow in my other pants. I DO have plenty of pointy sticks though... -- KNG