Hey Phil,
Just a personal perspective on your study. On my server (Protector), the population changes during the course of each day (Time zones and all that), so each slice of a day could yield completely different results.
For example, I work LATE shift west coast. So when I log on around 1AM-3AM (most days) the server is very quiet. What I find (and perhaps you would expect to find) is alot of folks who are solo-ing. Nature of the time-frame. Perhaps also the reason I place more emphasis on being ABLE to solo well. More so than others might (who operate in better time-frames on their servers.)
Something to consider.
P.S. I find that there is often no clear right or wrong. But lots of grey.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Which is why I picked ALL servers at a time where the servers would be MOST populated, but NOT during the weekend. The choice was completely intentional and picked carefully.
That was very big of you and I accept your apology.
All this proves is less people play Defenders. Not necessarily that they're underpowered. A GOOD defender can still bring a lot to a team, especially when dealing with GMs and AVs (where crowd control is moot).
Are Controllers more powerful? For the most part, yes. And with Corruptors being able to cross over soon with their higher damage numbers, Defenders probably do need some help to be seen as "viable". Funny thing is, people will take a rad, any rad, not realizing that a Defenders Debuffs will function significantly better than that of a Controller. What Defenders need is better PR... and if that has to come in the shape of Devs announcing a minor buff for them, then so be it.
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
And now Turbo_Ski will never shut up. 
PK, run the numbers based on level range and take even more samples to get a better pool. I'll let you see the numbers. I already know what the outcome is going to be.
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biggest complaint isn't about the defender primary, it's about their secondary and base damage being too weak compared to other ATs. With the way the game has evolved, good damage at all level ranges is a must for an AT, Kheldians had their damage buffed because of this. Those that say the damage is fine really need to admit to themselves that they are using specific -res/+dmg powers in specific sets and Sonic blast's overtuned debuff value as a crutch. Roll up a FF/* or Empath/* with any set not sonic blast and you'll find your soloing speed crippling compared to any other AT.|
Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
All this proves is less people play Defenders. Not necessarily that they're underpowered. A GOOD defender can still bring a lot to a team, especially when dealing with GMs and AVs (where crowd control is moot).
Are Controllers more powerful? For the most part, yes. And with Corruptors being able to cross over soon with their higher damage numbers, Defenders probably do need some help to be seen as "viable". Funny thing is, people will take a rad, any rad, not realizing that a Defenders Debuffs will function significantly better than that of a Controller. What Defenders need is better PR... and if that has to come in the shape of Devs announcing a minor buff for them, then so be it. |
Really we need to buff the damage up and raise corruptor damage higher if necessary and then fine tune tweak specific sets afterwards. Fix the major problem so you can focus on the smaller ones. Also of course fix the inherent or completely revamp it to add more distinct flavor to the defender AT.
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Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
PK, run the numbers based on level range and take even more samples to get a better pool. I'll let you see the numbers. I already know what the outcome is going to be.
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Umm... that's what I did. Read the OP again. I ran the numbers from 41-50 intentionally. Why did I pick that level range and only that level range? To see what characters people are STILL playing at the end game. To see what character people still choose to keep playing after they've played all the way to the "end". I feel that is a good judge of what people LIKE to play, rather than pull numbers at the lower levels.
Hell, I've got dozens and dozens of Controllers and Tankers sitting at the lower levels that I just don't play, because they can't hold my interest the same way Defenders do. So I'm going by the personal preference of the entire playerbase as a whole at the upper level. And this data shows that Defenders are the only group that they'd prefer not to play compared to the rest. And as you can see, there is a SIGNIFICANT difference between them, this isn't some fluke.
But feel free to run your own numbers if you don't believe me. If you get substantially different results, I may ask for screen shots of your searches.
PK, all this proves is that players think defenders under perform, not that they actually do. I'll admit, I shy away from defenders because they don't do much damage unless there are alot of them. A team of 8 storm defenders will rip through anything. A single storm defender by himself isn't anything spectacular to behold.
That being said, I wouldn't be opposed to an increase in the amount of damage a defender does. I think it's more of the buff bot people shy away from and the lack of damage plays into that feeling. I have an Emp defender, 2 FF defenders, and a rad defender and I choose thier secondaries based on what I think would be good synergy. FF/NRG (KB oriented) FF/Dark (+defense/-tohit) and Rad/Sonic (lots of debuffs). I also have an Emp/Rad and an Emp/Psi. The Emp/Psi was actually my second toon ever made 3 years ago. If I could change the Psi to something else, I would. Terrible synergy there.
Do I think defenders are underpowered? No, but they are underplayed and a buff to damage would solve that.
Edit: And when did you take that sample? 412 players on Virtue? I log in and there's twice as many when I play at midnight!
They are underplayed BECAUSE they are underpowered. Popularity comes with power. If we had God mode tank mages, people WOULD play that most of all, because mass destruction is just plain FUN. Fire/Kin Controllers are the closest thing we have to that, which is why they're so prevalent.
An AT's popularity and its personal ability are directly correlated.
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Oh yeah, I know. I have an Emp/Rad i sorta hate soloing with. Of course being radiation blast, if FEELS like I'm throwing cotton candy at my enemies... and it's not even sticky.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
biggest complaint isn't about the defender primary, it's about their secondary and base damage being too weak compared to other ATs. With the way the game has evolved, good damage at all level ranges is a must for an AT, Kheldians had their damage buffed because of this. Those that say the damage is fine really need to admit to themselves that they are using specific -res/+dmg powers in specific sets and Sonic blast's overtuned debuff value as a crutch. Roll up a FF/* or Empath/* with any set not sonic blast and you'll find your soloing speed crippling compared to any other AT.
Really we need to buff the damage up and raise corruptor damage higher if necessary and then fine tune tweak specific sets afterwards. Fix the major problem so you can focus on the smaller ones. Also of course fix the inherent or completely revamp it to add more distinct flavor to the defender AT. |
Of course, I also have a Kin/Elec sapper which is fairly fun (though not so much as my mind/kin), and an FF/Sonic which i built for teaming, but can solo fairly well. When I'm in a powergaming mood, i salivate at rolling a storm/sonic or kin/sonic or rad/sonic or... well, you see where I'm going with this... but i never actually do. Too much effort. And no amount of AT tweaking or buffs will change that, because I'm quite simply "alt"ed out. I'm sure there's a small, though significant, portion of the player base who feels similar: they have their mains and want to focus on those, and they happen to be other ATs. *shrug*
Not that I'm arguing -against- a buff for defenders =) Just sayin'...
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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Ok, if you think they are underplayed because they are underpowered, do another survey. Ask each defender online what they're primary is, and tally that up. If you don't want to do it, I gladly will. I have a suspicion as to what the outcome may be. I predict Emp first, followed by Kin then Rad. The other primaries won't even come close. That doesn't mean they are useless, it means that people are not knowledable to what the other sets do. All people want when they play a defender are green numbers, and not all defender sets give that.|
Originally Posted by PhiloticKnight
They are underplayed BECAUSE they are underpowered. Popularity comes with power. If we had God mode tank mages, people WOULD play that most of all, because mass destruction is just plain FUN.
An AT's popularity and it's personal ability are directly correlated. |
I'm not opposed to bumping their damage, I just don't agree that underplayed = underpowered.
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Its the reason I dont have a Defender thats 41-50 yet.|
Originally Posted by Folonius
I'm not opposed to bumping their damage, I just don't agree that underplayed = underpowered.
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But I have a great desire to play one to that level range.
I am only one person, but I doubt I am unusual in my game experience.
Just saying
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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But apparently the rest of the player base DOES think this. So not only are they off playing other ATs, but they're also more likely to want a Controller on their team, or when GR comes around, a Corruptor or Mastermind... maybe.|
Originally Posted by Folonius
I'm not opposed to bumping their damage, I just don't agree that underplayed = underpowered.
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Not that Defenders will never be able to find a team. Though it would be NICE if their buffs and debuffs worked SIGNIFICANTLY better than that of their counterparts. It would be NICE if certain sets got a damage boost and more AoE control capability. It would be NICE if the Inherant were tweaked to something more usable. And it would be GREAT if the player base saw the patch notes relating to these things and some went "oh wow, Defenders sound pretty kick-butt right now, I think I'll roll one!"
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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Actually, I'd challenge you to actually bring up any statistical evidence to demonstrate correlation and then ask you to actually tell me how strong the correlation is. And then I'd tell you that it's actually perceived power level and that most of the people that play the game are incredibly bad at accurate observation where game balance is concerned.|
Originally Posted by PhiloticKnight
They are underplayed BECAUSE they are underpowered. Popularity comes with power. If we had God mode tank mages, people WOULD play that most of all, because mass destruction is just plain FUN. Fire/Kin Controllers are the closest thing we have to that, which is why they're so prevalent.
An AT's popularity and its personal ability are directly correlated. |
The devs have, in general, assumed that population disparity demonstrates imbalance, but there are also other variables aside from balance that impact population. Assumed and actual playstyle both have a huge impact on how popular an AT is. This is why Stalkers, even though they've been balanced upwards pretty heavily, are still less popular. You can't view population as the single arbiter of balance simply because there will always be population disparities. On average, support based roles/ATs/classes are significantly less popular than pure damage ones simply because people prefer to deal damage rather than keep people alive, no matter how much that support might be stronger.
Also, something to remember, a single data point across the various servers does not a rigorous assessment make. Check it across multiple times across multiple days and you'll get something that might actually be significant.
Good survey, PK, and much respect for posting this.
May I link to some similar research from the Controller forum?
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=142748
Enant's figures basically showed poor defender retention into the 40s - that up until then they were kind of almost holding their 20% share.
One possible explanation is that the 40s is where Controllers start edging into Defenders last bit of territory with AoE damage in their epic pools. Also, by 40 everyone has access to all primary/secondary powers, compared to the 30s where only defenders have Fulcrum Shift, Adrenalin Boost and other goodies like that.
This suggests it isnt quite as bad as the 40s suggest for levelling Defenders, but the end game is where they suffer the most.
I still wouldn't say no to a damage bump, of course
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No, the rest of the player base does not think that underplayed = underpowerd. They just don't want to suffer through playing a buff bot. When I look for a team, I want 2 defenders on my team because they offer the best defensive or offensive numbers to their buffs. I also want two controllers on my team, because they have holds, not because they have buffs. A defender buffs, a controller holds, and they are both good at what they do. I would never invite a controller to a team, expecting him to do nothing but buff, but I would invite a defender to a team and expect them to do nothing but buff while using their secondary to suplement their buffs.|
Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
But apparently the rest of the player base DOES think this. So not only are they off playing other ATs, but they're also more likely to want a Controller on their team, or when GR comes around, a Corruptor or Mastermind... maybe.
Not that Defenders will never be able to find a team. Though it would be NICE if their buffs and debuffs worked SIGNIFICANTLY better than that of their counterparts. It would be NICE if certain sets got a damage boost and more AoE control capability. It would be NICE if the Inherant were tweaked to something more usable. And it would be GREAT if the player base saw the patch notes relating to these things and some went "oh wow, Defenders sound pretty kick-butt right now, I think I'll roll one!" |
The later is why I think people shy away from defenders. They don't like the underdamaging support toon even though their buffs are higher.
My Ideal team is 2 controllers, 2 defenders, a tank, and 3 damage toons. A defender is one of those toons that are great to have on a team, you just don't want to be the one playing them. Adding damage will make them more soloable, but it may have the potential of diluting them so players think of their defender more like an offender, and I hate offenders. I would still suffer through a damage increase to defenders though just to make more people like them.
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Having the potential to go against the grain of what the Devs describe in the AT's summary is one of the main reasons I enjoy Defenders. If this makes me an Offender, well sorry if this offends you (ha) but everyone is entitled to enjoy the game! Frankly with two Controllers and a good tank enemies will not really be posing any threat anyway, so wouldn't you rather have better damage from those 2 Defenders who are shuffling around looking for someone to heal (hmm nobody there, let's try ..hmm no wait they're all fine too.) or a mob to debuff before it dies 3 seconds later. Except for extreme content this kind of setup would be easy enough to not require buffing/debuffing anywho. So let us blast |
Originally Posted by Folonius
No, the rest of the player base does not think that underplayed = underpowerd. They just don't want to suffer through playing a buff bot. When I look for a team, I want 2 defenders on my team because they offer the best defensive or offensive numbers to their buffs. I also want two controllers on my team, because they have holds, not because they have buffs. A defender buffs, a controller holds, and they are both good at what they do. I would never invite a controller to a team, expecting him to do nothing but buff, but I would invite a defender to a team and expect them to do nothing but buff while using their secondary to suplement their buffs.
The later is why I think people shy away from defenders. They don't like the underdamaging support toon even though their buffs are higher. My Ideal team is 2 controllers, 2 defenders, a tank, and 3 damage toons. A defender is one of those toons that are great to have on a team, you just don't want to be the one playing them. Adding damage will make them more soloable, but it may have the potential of diluting them so players think of their defender more like an offender, and I hate offenders. I would still suffer through a damage increase to defenders though just to make more people like them. |
Defiant EU
Quaver: Kinetics/Sonic Defender
Semiquaver: Sonic/Kinetics Corruptor
Don't beat yourself up too much. Different perspectives. If you like messing with teammates' heads by squishytanking, defenders look better to you than they do to other people. If you like maximum healzoring at any cost, same deal. If your roleplay concept involves you digging deep within yourself to spend less endurance when your teammates are hurt, same deal.
Me, I'm a fan of certain defender secondaries, so that's my deal.
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Prove it.|
Originally Posted by PhiloticKnight
They are underplayed BECAUSE they are underpowered.
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I've seen "under" statements thrown around a lot, but I have yet to see direct side by side comparisons of defender and controller capability, which is actually the only way anyone can say whether anything is "underpowered".
So prove it. If you're that certain of your conclusion, analyze the damage output of every controller combination with optimal attack chains and every defender combination with optimal attack chains, including relevant buffs and debuffs, and applicable enhancement values, and the extreme outliers for both (high and low), and prove that one or the other is "overpowered" or "underpowered".
This challenge is free for anyone to pick up, not just PK. If any of you are absolutely convinced that defenders are getting the short end of the stick and can do a proper analysis, then do it and post it. Get it up in print so the developers can see exactly what is really happening and consider making adjustments where applicable.
I know there are several posters who can do this kind of analysis. I could, if I wanted to, but I don't want to, and I'm not the one proclaiming the death of defenders or imbalance between one AT and another, so I'm not obligated to do it.
It is like I've always said, Defenders do well at low levels when they get access to all the buffs/debuffs that are wanted early. As soon as Controllers reach their 20's and have access/room in their build to acquire all these powers, they completely overshadow Defenders.
By the time you get to the 40's, most Controllers can do everything a Defender can with the debuff/buff powerset, and bring a huge amount of powerful control as opposed to an entire set of very wimpy damage.
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Personally, when I invite a 'troller to my team, I expect them to both support AND hold (i.e. use ALL the tools available to them). I expect a 'fender to support and throw out whatever meager damage they can as well (again, use all tools available to them). On a team, either AT's buffs function fairly similarly due to it being easier to hit certain caps with only one 'trollers buff/debuffs and Melee's shields combined or with two support toons buffs/debuffs working together.|
Originally Posted by Folonius
No, the rest of the player base does not think that underplayed = underpowerd. They just don't want to suffer through playing a buff bot. When I look for a team, I want 2 defenders on my team because they offer the best defensive or offensive numbers to their buffs. I also want two controllers on my team, because they have holds, not because they have buffs. A defender buffs, a controller holds, and they are both good at what they do. I would never invite a controller to a team, expecting him to do nothing but buff, but I would invite a defender to a team and expect them to do nothing but buff while using their secondary to suplement their buffs.
The later is why I think people shy away from defenders. They don't like the underdamaging support toon even though their buffs are higher. My Ideal team is 2 controllers, 2 defenders, a tank, and 3 damage toons. A defender is one of those toons that are great to have on a team, you just don't want to be the one playing them. Adding damage will make them more soloable, but it may have the potential of diluting them so players think of their defender more like an offender, and I hate offenders. I would still suffer through a damage increase to defenders though just to make more people like them. |
That said, my ideal team blueside would be 3-4 'trollers, 3-4 Blasters, and a Tank (purely for AV aggro management). The first two 'trollers would easily cover any buffing/debuffing/healing needed (even if they're both empaths), the 3rd and possibly 4th would only be there for insurance and to ensure perma-containment (i.e. cycle the big AoE holds-- likely wouldn't even need the buffs for the most part), as well as add more containment damage, and depending on the sets, potentially hold even AV's. Obviously, the rest of the team is self-explanatory.
As you said, people shy away from 'fenders because they don't want to play a buff-bot (i.e. 'fenders lack utility). It's this lack of utility that makes them underpowered because another AT that shares it's support sets can handle that, and do more (and it's gonna get worse yet with GR).
To put it as simply as possible: Lack of utility = underpowered = underplayed.
So, the question then becomes "how do you give 'fenders more utility without overstepping into other AT's territory? (despite the 'fender's territory already being encroached upon)" Numerous suggestions have been made in other threads, so I won't bother rehashing them here.
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Generally, my trollers have very little in the secondary. I have an Ice/TA and I use TA to supplement my primary. IMO TA is the best controlling secondary for a troller. I have several Fire/Kin's, and I skip'd SB on one of them. I have a mind/ff which is control heavy, but the nice thing about FF is I only have to worry about shielding everyone every 5 minutes. The rest of the time is control. It's one of the reasons I love FF defenders. I can shield people, then essentially use the secondary to debuff the mobs. I don't bother even slotting FF defenders for damage.|
Originally Posted by sigma1932
Personally, when I invite a 'troller to my team, I expect them to both support AND hold (i.e. use ALL the tools available to them).
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While a controller can and should use buffs, I don't expect them to drop everything and put a buff up as quickly as they can. I do expect a defender to do that.
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| I expect a 'fender to support and throw out whatever meager damage they can as well |
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| That said, my ideal team blueside would be 3-4 'trollers, 3-4 Blasters, and a Tank (purely for AV aggro management). The first two 'trollers would easily cover any buffing/debuffing/healing needed |
I have an Ill/emp that doesn't have heal other or absorb pain and only uses healing aura. He also has regen and recovery aura and uses them to benefit himself, and whoever MIGHT be next to him at the time. It's been awhile since I played him, but I might have skipped CM on him as well. A controller needs to be a controller first. Whatever secondary powers they might have I expect them to use, but it's only icing on the cake.
When I invite a controller, I know what I'm getting ... Their primary. When I invite a defender, I know what I'm getting ... Thier primary. There's no surprises, and thus, no fustration. I can picture you inviting a controller and going "What! No heal other! /kick" Defenders are the only toons with buffs and debuffs as their primary, and I've often found this a huge problem on the villians side. I was on a team with 3 corruptors, 2 masterminds, and 3 brutes. We team wiped 4 times in AE and someone goes "We need a healer!" and I quit and went back to the hero side. I will be looking forward to allowing defenders to go to villian side, and maybe the teaming experience will improve.
I'm not saying that 4 or 5 or even 8 controllers won't work, I love controllers, but I love them because they can hold things and stop mobs from attacking all together, not because they have super great buffs. That's the defenders job.
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| As you said, people shy away from 'fenders because they don't want to play a buff-bot (i.e. 'fenders lack utility). It's this lack of utility that makes them underpowered because another AT that shares it's support sets can handle that, and do more (and it's gonna get worse yet with GR). |
What exactly do you mean by utility? Defenders have tons of utility attacks in their secondary.
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| To put it as simply as possible: Lack of utility = underpowered = underplayed. |
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| So, the question then becomes "how do you give 'fenders more utility without overstepping into other AT's territory? |
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| (despite the 'fender's territory already being encroached upon)" Numerous suggestions have been made in other threads, so I won't bother rehashing them here. |
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No need to analyze every specific power in every specific set because AT balance is never done like that (that's power balance lumi). Controllers have a modifier of 0.55 and containment is easily achieved and doubles that to 1.10. Defender modifier is 0.65 and has nothing inherently enhancing it. Defender buff modifier is 1.25 and controller's is 1.00. Now explain without citing specific powers why the damage difference is 0.45 and the support difference is 0.25, and how is that balanced? Now answer how much mitigation does combination of control sets and support set bring compared to blast sets and support sets.|
Originally Posted by Luminara
So prove it. If you're that certain of your conclusion, analyze the damage output of every controller combination with optimal attack chains and every defender combination with optimal attack chains, including relevant buffs and debuffs, and applicable enhancement values, and the extreme outliers for both (high and low), and prove that one or the other is "overpowered" or "underpowered".
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Bonus round, how is the corruptor-defender damage difference of 0.3775 (includes 12% average scourge gain and 25% damage cap gain) is balanced with a support difference of 0.25.
So, I took another sample, this time during a REALLY slow time, and this time I took samples at the "top" of the level spread and samples of all heroes across all levels across all servers. Keep in mind that my original sample during the "busy" time had a total of almost 1900 heroes on and that was JUST at the top spot. In these samples, there are only about 400 heroes on at the top spot and barely 1100 TOTAL at all levels, take a look.
First the Top spot:
Note here that the results are MUCH more variable with a small sample size, but the trends are already beginning, Defenders are still low in population compared to all the other ATs, the only one they come CLOSE to is Blasters, and they are still 20% below them.
Also interesting to note that at a low population time, Defenders and Blasters seem to be in the lowest population, while those that can solo the best without the need of outside support (Controllers, Tankers and Scrappers) are at the highest population. No surprise here. In this low pop solo friendly environment, Scrappers are king.
Now to look at the entire population across all levels at this slow time:
Look familiar? The bigger the sample size, the more the trend sticks out. Defenders are still vastly under-represented compared to ALL other ATs.
I still stand by my original findings. The playerbase can tell that Defenders are underpowered, so they don't play them. It's psychology vs. sociology.
While you can argue from an individual perspective with your own personal anectdotes, when you look at a larger population, the trends emerge and are obvious.
The larger the population, the larger the sample size the more obvious the trends.
So, anyone have a specific time frame in which they think they can prove Defender's unpopularity wrong? I'd love a challenge to the findings.
Well, this is going to be a very hard post for me, so I'll have to get through it quick and get it done.
TS and I have had this debate a few times, round and round over and over. And it always went in circles because we are both so SURE that we're right.
I believe that Defenders are fine just the way they are, as I've never had any problems with them, and Turbo believes that they are inherently underperforming compared to all the other ATs.
I further went on to state that not only are Defenders performing that same alongside all the other ATs, but even that Controllers are the OUTLIER and should be "hammered down" I think my words were. I even stated as proof that the population of Controllers is substantially higher than the population of the other ATs at the high end in the live environment. And that this was PROOF that Controllers were overpowered.
As someone who's personal integrity is more important than his pride, I have to say the following:
I was wrong.
And, Turbo_Ski was right.
I just ran my own research to find my "proof". I am under the belief that the playerbase as a whole instinctively "know" just by the "feel" of characters which are more powerful and which are less powerful, which are more efficient and which are less efficient. Even WITHOUT them knowing the numbers. I still believe this to be true.
So I took a random sample at a random time during a "slow day" but a "busy time" of the day. So, about two hours ago I did a sample of the 41-50 population of all ATs one by one on EVERY server. I feel this is sufficient a size sample and I believe representative of the "normal" game population.
My results were shocking to me personally, but probably not to most people. Here is the data that I collected:
As you can see, not only are Defenders the ONLY ones "underperforming" in terms of the playerbase's popularity, but they are underperforming to an alarming degree. Also, they are the ONLY AT that IS underperforming compared to the rest. Every other AT is well within 20% of the others on EVERY server, with the SOLE exception of Defenders.
This proves to me beyond a reasonable doubt that the population can "feel" that there is something "wrong" with defenders, and that they should in fact be looked at seriously.
I yield and surrender this point. And I publicly apologize for any personal attacks to Turbo_Ski that I may have made in my fanatical "belief", which was and is an accurate statement.