Regen's traditional weakness has been in dealing with alpha strikes which is something Tanks have to be able to handle. The new MoG helps deal with that, but it's not up in time for every spawn. I think that might've been one issue that kept it from being proliferated to Tanks.
Regen would be a fun set for Brutes, and due to the high HP cap it could indeed be very powerful. A Regen Brute with all the +HP accolades or just a Frostwork buff would be pretty darn strong.
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Ahh, good point. All the regen in the world will still fall flat on its face with a big enough alpha.|
Originally Posted by Sardan
Regen's traditional weakness has been in dealing with alpha strikes which is something Tanks have to be able to handle. The new MoG helps deal with that, but it's not up in time for every spawn. I think that might've been one issue that kept it from being proliferated to Tanks.
Regen would be a fun set for Brutes, and due to the high HP cap it could indeed be very powerful. A Regen Brute with all the +HP accolades or just a Frostwork buff would be pretty darn strong. |
My question about HP numbers still stands. Do brutes have similar HP to scrappers or tankers? Are the HP caps different?
Also, brutes, try as they might, are not tanks. That's why villains have masterminds
. If the alpha strike issue is what keeps regen from being ported to tanks, it shouldn't stop it from going to brutes.
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I think it should proliferated over asap especially after watching the wolverine movie where sabertooth kicked everyones butt lol.Yes in the movie we found out that hes regen is less then wolverines but he was certainly much stronger then him so maybe take away instant healing and add a new power for brutes maybe some type of dmg aura.
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Originally Posted by DechsKaison
I understand that regen's power is directly proportional to the character's HP, and that's why tankers don't have it. Tanker HP is enormous and would make /regen overpowered, but I thought brute HP was comparable to scrapper HP. If I'm right, why don't brutes have access to the /regen powerset?
Do you think this is something that could be proliferated in the near future? |
Brutes have a higher HP cap due to the fact they need to be able to handle more aggro than Scrappers for their class inherent to function.
Numbers from paragonwiki:
" Scrapper Base = 1338.6 Cap = 2409.5 "
" Brute Base = 1499.3 Cap = 3212.7 "
source: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hit_Points
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Nope, they are not tanks, but if you take the time to IO and build it right, you may have a hard time telling the difference.
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Originally Posted by DechsKaison
Ahh, good point. All the regen in the world will still fall flat on its face with a big enough alpha.
My question about HP numbers still stands. Do brutes have similar HP to scrappers or tankers? Are the HP caps different? Also, brutes, try as they might, are not tanks. That's why villains have masterminds . If the alpha strike issue is what keeps regen from being ported to tanks, it shouldn't stop it from going to brutes. |
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But then what does a tanker that takes the time to IO and build right look like?
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Originally Posted by _Deth_
Nope, they are not tanks, but if you take the time to IO and build it right, you may have a hard time telling the difference.
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Not much different.
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Originally Posted by DechsKaison
But then what does a tanker that takes the time to IO and build right look like?
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Except for damage output...
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Originally Posted by Bookkeeper_Jay
Not much different.
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A brute with QR at level 4 is my dream character.
Regen is the one secondary I wouldn't roll on a brute. I have a broadsword/regen scrapper at 50 and all he does, when placed into the same AE missions as my sm/wp brute, is suck and die. Unless instant healing is up, then he does ok. I don't know how much of that is the heavily resisted primary, but I spend more time clicking defenses than attacks with him in a tough fight.
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Same hp cap as Tankers as someone else had pointed out. Not sure that MMs were meant be the Tankers of redside as bodyguard mode wasnt implemented into the game when redside came out. MMs can prob take the initial alpha better than a Brute but it cant maintain it.|
Originally Posted by DechsKaison
Ahh, good point. All the regen in the world will still fall flat on its face with a big enough alpha.
My question about HP numbers still stands. Do brutes have similar HP to scrappers or tankers? Are the HP caps different? Also, brutes, try as they might, are not tanks. That's why villains have masterminds . If the alpha strike issue is what keeps regen from being ported to tanks, it shouldn't stop it from going to brutes. |
Not in any way to side track.
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I learned to play masterminds before BG mode. Back then it was "Send in the drone!" Let a tier one take the alpha and and mow things down after that. No sense of holding aggro, but at least alphas weren't a problem...|
Originally Posted by TrancEnding
Same hp cap as Tankers as someone else had pointed out. Not sure that MMs were meant be the Tankers of redside as bodyguard mode wasnt implemented into the game when redside came out. MMs can prob take the initial alpha better than a Brute but it cant maintain it.
Not in any way to side track. |
With BG mode, yes, masterminds can tank pretty well, provided they take provoke and slot. With 6 pets you're at 75% resistance, and bots/traps can be at 35% defense on top of that. More with IO's.
Although, MMs do faceplant to AoE attacks occasionally...
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One last thing is that I looked into when Bodguard Mode came 'round and it was round the time i7 came out as I recall correctly that i6 was when villain side was introduced. I guess an issue into it they may have had bodyguard mode in mind and didn't get it ready in time for the release.
But, if they were truly supposed to be Tankers redside they would have given Taunt to MMs instead of Brutes.
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Then you're doing something wrong, because my fire/regeneration scrapper with less defense then a bs/regen scrapper does perfectly fine.
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Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
Regen is the one secondary I wouldn't roll on a brute. I have a broadsword/regen scrapper at 50 and all he does, when placed into the same AE missions as my sm/wp brute, is suck and die. Unless instant healing is up, then he does ok. I don't know how much of that is the heavily resisted primary, but I spend more time clicking defenses than attacks with him in a tough fight.
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Dark/Shield Build Thread
That's entirely possible, which is why I've poured over guide after guide of /Regen lore in the player guide section and scrapper forum.
If I click dull pain and instant healing before the fight then he does alright, sure. I just don't have the inf blue side to even try and get dull pain perma. Though I could see how more recharge would seriously help everything.
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Post up your build scrapper side and I'll give you a hand. |
Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
That's entirely possible, which is why I've poured over guide after guide of /Regen lore in the player guide section and scrapper forum.
If I click dull pain and instant healing before the fight then he does alright, sure. I just don't have the inf blue side to even try and get dull pain perma. Though I could see how more recharge would seriously help everything. |
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Dark/Shield Build Thread
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well, with the IO build I came up with for my Elec/ElA brute, the only difference IO'd out between it and my IO'd DA/DM tank is a few hp and @10% resistance. And my DA tank will put out a ton less damage. |
Originally Posted by DechsKaison
But then what does a tanker that takes the time to IO and build right look like?
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Originally Posted by TrancEnding
Same hp cap as Tankers as someone else had pointed out. Not sure that MMs were meant be the Tankers of redside as bodyguard mode wasnt implemented into the game when redside came out. MMs can prob take the initial alpha better than a Brute but it cant maintain it.
Not in any way to side track. |
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Originally Posted by TrancEnding
One last thing is that I looked into when Bodguard Mode came 'round and it was round the time i7 came out as I recall correctly that i6 was when villain side was introduced. I guess an issue into it they may have had bodyguard mode in mind and didn't get it ready in time for the release.
But, if they were truly supposed to be Tankers redside they would have given Taunt to MMs instead of Brutes. |
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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Slightly off subject- but I am a little done with hearing this comment. I have been playing the game for nearly 2 years, and I have never *once* seen a MM "tank". I am sure that at some distant point in the past, that was the design and expectation of a MM, but if you go and play the game now, roll a brute, and step onto a red team, chances are you are going to end up tanking. |
Originally Posted by DechsKaison
Also, brutes, try as they might, are not tanks. That's why villains have masterminds . |
No, this isn't a personal attack against you. I just find it odd people continue to propogate that when it isn't true in practice. This has nothing to do with AE or farms, and I don't think it is a new phenomenon in the slightest. Am I saying that brutes are tanks? No- I am saying that if you are on team, and happen to find yourself the sole brute, people will probably wait for you to open up the spawn.
On topic: I think it would be a bit rough for a regen brute (in its current incarnation) to cut the cheese, even compared to some other sets that have been commonly regarded as underperforming. If they did port it over, you would have some soaring highs, but some atrocious lows as well.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
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Off topic: (It's ok, it's my thread to jack anyway!) I didn't take it as a personal attack, but the obvious truth here is that you haven't teamed with me. Redside, I play MM's almost exclusively, and only recently tried getting into some other ATs. When I play MM's, I am the first to jump into just about every spawn. I love taking aggro, and I taunt like crazy.|
Originally Posted by magikwand
Slightly off subject- but I am a little done with hearing this comment. I have been playing the game for nearly 2 years, and I have never *once* seen a MM "tank". I am sure that at some distant point in the past, that was the design and expectation of a MM, but if you go and play the game now, roll a brute, and step onto a red team, chances are you are going to end up tanking.
No, this isn't a personal attack against you. I just find it odd people continue to propogate that when it isn't true in practice. This has nothing to do with AE or farms, and I don't think it is a new phenomenon in the slightest. Am I saying that brutes are tanks? No- I am saying that if you are on team, and happen to find yourself the sole brute, people will probably wait for you to open up the spawn. On topic: I think it would be a bit rough for a regen brute (in its current incarnation) to cut the cheese, even compared to some other sets that have been commonly regarded as underperforming. If they did port it over, you would have some soaring highs, but some atrocious lows as well. |
Now, I'm not saying the general playerbase of MM's tanks. They don't. Some of them just don't want to, but hell, most of them still don't know about bodyguard mode! I try to educate every MM I meet.
EDIT: I still think brutes compare more directly to scrappers in that they don't hold aggro like a tank does. They want aggro, because it builds fury, so naturally they try and they do better than scrappers at tanking. The point I want to make is that if you want to be an aggro holding unkillable machine, go make a tank, not a brute. If you want tough as nails steamrolling death, that's when you want a brute.
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Well, I agree that the majority of players simply don't understand how to play MMs with a notable degree of efficacy.
I personally think that, for all intents and purposes, brutes hold aggro very well. Sure, it isn't on a tank's lvl without enhancement, but with a threat lvl of 4 and mini-gauntlet, a brute is pulling plenty of hate. Sure, brutes want aggro for fury's sake; and most of the time, they get it. On all of my brutes, except for a SR, I never have problems grabbing and maintaining aggro.
Alas, we are two people with different play experiences. I am glad you know how to use your MM in such a way. Perhaps you could hold a webinar on the matter and toss out invites to some MMs with comparatively poorer skills. I have teamed with a few recently that were in desperate need of such tutelage.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
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Well, as someone who has played MMs since CoV Beta, I have to agree with you. MM's are definitely more than capable of playing the tanking role, especially after they introduced bodyguard. The aggro mechanic for MMs is really just misunderstood by most. After CoV release, when teamed, I would swarm the minions and Lt's while the rest of the team took out the boss, or, the exact opposite, with the rest of the group handling all the extras while I nuked the boss. /poison was just nuts back in the day, but shines more on single targets than on groups. |
Originally Posted by DechsKaison
Off topic: (It's ok, it's my thread to jack anyway!) I didn't take it as a personal attack, but the obvious truth here is that you haven't teamed with me. Redside, I play MM's almost exclusively, and only recently tried getting into some other ATs. When I play MM's, I am the first to jump into just about every spawn. I love taking aggro, and I taunt like crazy.
Now, I'm not saying the general playerbase of MM's tanks. They don't. Some of them just don't want to, but hell, most of them still don't know about bodyguard mode! I try to educate every MM I meet. |
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Originally Posted by DechsKaison
EDIT: I still think brutes compare more directly to scrappers in that they don't hold aggro like a tank does. They want aggro, because it builds fury, so naturally they try and they do better than scrappers at tanking. The point I want to make is that if you want to be an aggro holding unkillable machine, go make a tank, not a brute. If you want tough as nails steamrolling death, that's when you want a brute.
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Originally Posted by magikwand
Well, I agree that the majority of players simply don't understand how to play MMs with a notable degree of efficacy.
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Originally Posted by magikwand
I personally think that, for all intents and purposes, brutes hold aggro very well. Sure, it isn't on a tank's lvl without enhancement, but with a threat lvl of 4 and mini-gauntlet, a brute is pulling plenty of hate. Sure, brutes want aggro for fury's sake; and most of the time, they get it. On all of my brutes, except for a SR, I never have problems grabbing and maintaining aggro.
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As for porting /regen to brutes, I think WP is as close as brutes are going to get. For the SO game, yeah, it would probably be balanced pretty well, when you take into account IOs, that goes out the window. Regen scales with total hp, and having tank levels of hp available, well, without serious tweaking, I can see it getting out of hand. Alpha's may be a bit rough, but I don't see them being a big obstacle, especially if people build for perma dull pain.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
I understand that regen's power is directly proportional to the character's HP, and that's why tankers don't have it. Tanker HP is enormous and would make /regen overpowered, but I thought brute HP was comparable to scrapper HP. If I'm right, why don't brutes have access to the /regen powerset?
Do you think this is something that could be proliferated in the near future?
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.