NRG/NRG - Can it be done w/o being loathed?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-08-05 22:25 in Blasters
I've yet to get any comment on my rampant KB when on my Eng/Eng.
Of course, it doesn't hurt that I'm constantly moving around to knock things into walls and other obstacles so they don't fly around too far. Or that my alpha tends to destroy 80% of any would-be foes.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
The reason that KB has a bad rep is not for the effect itself (with the exception of the truly annoying KB in some melee powers) but because so many players misuse it. Used correctly knockback provides huge amounts of damage mitigation since enemies spend most of their time flying through the air rather than attacking. Used poorly KB scatterns enemies far and wide making AoEs less effective which slows the team and results in them taking more damage (due to slower rate of killing and less effective debuffs).
As Rush Bolt said you'll need to learn to move around so that you knock enemies somewhere useful rather than scattering them. One useful trick is to get hover since attacking from above will turn KB into knockdown.
As for slotting knockback, you can try but in general I think you'll find that the lower damage hurts a lot more than the higher mitigation helps.
As Rush Bolt said, you have to be smart about the knockback, but it's the deal breaker it was a while back. Learn to knock things into walls, corners etc. Your single target attacks probably aren't a problem as long as you aren't going after the same boss that the tank/scrappers are. Just learn when not to use your AOEs and you should be ok in most teams.
One piece of advice is to go with the melee attacks too. It gives you some very strong attacks and extra defensive skills that you have more control of.
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There are people that will kick you as soon as they see that you do knockback. Those people are few-and-far between.|
Originally Posted by Pyrochaos
I love knockback.
... The problem is, erm, doesn't *everyone* hate KB on a team? Is it going to cause AE teams to freak out with all the KB?... ... but I am seriously worried about being ostracized to be honest. Any thoughts? |
If a tank or scrapper is leading the team, you are more likely to get kicked if you us your knockback to knock enemies away from them.
Some people will kick you if your knock back is causing problems for the team.
My 50 blaster is energy/energy and he was never kicked from a team, but I relied mostly on single target attacks.
I agree with the others about trying to knock the enemy into walls and into corners.
I will add to knock enemies toward melee characters and not away from them. So when enemies get through to the backfield, feel free to knock the enemies back up to the front line all day long - since they shouldn't be back there in the first place.
It all comes back to understanding what the rest of the team is doing and working to use your powers in order to augment the powers of the rest of the team.
For example::
If there is a controller on the team, wait until they hold/immobilize the enemy before you attack.
If there is an ice slice down or freezing rain, use your knock back to knock enemies back onto/into it versus off/out of it.
Of course, if the team is starting to wipe, knocking the enemy all over the place just might give your team enough time to recover or escape.
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I still have yet to run into anyone who's actually playing and doesn't like KB. I've seen some KB haters on the forums, but never in the game. And I haven't been shy about using KB when I team.|
Originally Posted by Pyrochaos
I love knockback.
I think its one of the fun unique things that makes CoH feel super-hero-y, and it's not in most other MMO's (WoW has added some simple kb effects in WoTLK, but nothing like CoH). I have always wanted to roll up a NRG/NRG/Force, space blasting dude, and now with customization its going to be hawt (on paper). The problem is, erm, doesn't *everyone* hate KB on a team? Is it going to cause AE teams to freak out with all the KB? |
For a couple of weeks, another player and I were running "Team Knockback" over on Liberty. We'd log in with characters with KB every night and team up, then recruit others and go completely spastic with the KB. Only comments we ever had were "Fun!" and "WOOOOOOOOOO!".
Also haven't been kicked for playing TA, or for not having a travel power. So I can only presume that all of these people who claim to hate all of the things I love must be hanging out together and not playing with the general population, and they're about as likely to team with me/you/anyone else as they are to sprout radishes out of their nipples.
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I mean, part of me would love to even slot KB, the ragdoll is just so much fun, but I am seriously worried about being ostracized to be honest. Any thoughts? |
And if you do run into problems finding teams, just poke your head into the forums and ask around, there are many, many of us here who love KB just as much as you do and who will be happy to team with you.
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Well my main is an Energy/Energy/Force Blapper.... Most teams don't complain about dead mobs flying. If you stick to the "if it's flying, it's dying" moto you should be ok.|
Originally Posted by Pyrochaos
I love knockback.
I think its one of the fun unique things that makes CoH feel super-hero-y, and it's not in most other MMO's (WoW has added some simple kb effects in WoTLK, but nothing like CoH). I have always wanted to roll up a NRG/NRG/Force, space blasting dude, and now with customization its going to be hawt (on paper). The problem is, erm, doesn't *everyone* hate KB on a team? Is it going to cause AE teams to freak out with all the KB? I mean, part of me would love to even slot KB, the ragdoll is just so much fun, but I am seriously worried about being ostracized to be honest. Any thoughts? |
The biggest complaint my main faces is "YOU KILLED MY TARGET!" from scrapper locked melee teammates.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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In my experience this is 100% false. My blapper main survives in places my shielder doesn't. I have Energy Torrent, Explosive Blast, and Power Thrust ALL 6 slotted with Kinetic Crash and I use them mainly for mitigation. Slotting those powers in this way does about 85% of the damage that ED capped damage slotting delivers, (95.1 damage as opposed to 112.1 for Explosive Blast) but I'm using those powers for their awesome mitigation, the extra damage is just gravy.|
Originally Posted by Adeon_Hawkwood
As for slotting knockback, you can try but in general I think you'll find that the lower damage hurts a lot more than the higher mitigation helps.
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That blapper only runs about 7% defense to all positions and I typically do invincible ITFs with no deaths.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
The whole Energy being loathed for knockbacks is stupid, as long as you control it properly and keep them roughly around the melee you should be fine.
To be fair not that many people notice it and there's only like one or two people in the game that would kick you because you knock things back senselessly.
The key to playing an energy related character is controlling your knockback.
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I love knockbacks as much as the next guy. More actually. Knockbacks was what attracted me to CoH originally. But to be brutally honest with you, energy just doesn't pack enough punch to destroy much of anything in a single alpha strike. And if a great portion of a spawn is knocked all over the place, even severely wounded - chances are you will detract from the damage potential of a team rather than adding to it (especially if you have a RoA archer onboard).|
Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
I've yet to get any comment on my rampant KB when on my Eng/Eng.
Of course, it doesn't hurt that I'm constantly moving around to knock things into walls and other obstacles so they don't fly around too far. Or that my alpha tends to destroy 80% of any would-be foes. |
Knocking spawns into walls is not always feasible. Also, it requires you to constantly reposition yourself before attacking, thus lowering your own damage potential. Unreliable knockbacks can be managed though. If you pick up Hover and make sure you angle your attacks slanting downwards, KB can actually be turned into something beneficial in a team situation as the spawn is generally knocked down or just a little distance back. Furthermore, hover blasting in its present form, especially if coupled with strong ranged defense from IO sets, will increase blaster survivability significantly.
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That depends on your definition of "much of anything."|
Originally Posted by Seraphael
But to be brutally honest with you, energy just doesn't pack enough punch to destroy much of anything in a single alpha strike.
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| And if a great portion of a spawn is knocked all over the place, even severely wounded - chances are you will detract from the damage potential of a team rather than adding to it (especially if you have a RoA archer onboard). |
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| If you pick up Hover and make sure you angle your attacks slanting downwards, KB can actually be turned into something beneficial in a team situation as the spawn is generally knocked down or just a little distance back. Furthermore, hover blasting in its present form, especially if coupled with strong ranged defense from IO sets, will increase blaster survivability significantly. |
When I say I move around and alpha, I mean I pop BU and Aim as I'm running in and following up with Burst and Bonesmash on the closest thing still living.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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Sorry, didn't mean to sound so crass. I'm sure you're kickass...for a nrg blaster. |
Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
That depends on your definition of "much of anything."
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From a pure game mechanics point of view, the only reason to pick a blaster over any other AT is to deal massive AoE damage. And only Fire and Archery need apply. Both can melt most spawns in a single alpha strike.
Fire: BU+Aim, Breath of Fire, Fireball (Rain of Fire+Shiver if you're Fire/Ice or Psychic Scream/Shockwave if Fire/MM)
Archery: BU+Aim, Rain of Arrows, Exploding Arrow, Fistfull of Arrows (The Prickly Trifecta)
Other Combos just can't deal out that sort of large scale punishment and even fall short of a few other combos from other ATs.
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Agreed. Which is why I'm usually the first one to hit at a new spawn. |
) as the RoA triple punch needs quite some time to execute. So I guess I'll race you there! Quote:
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Good points. But sitting back and Hoverblasting is limiting as well. You've got melee attacks. Use 'em! When I say I move around and alpha, I mean I pop BU and Aim as I'm running in and following up with Burst and Bonesmash on the closest thing still living. |
Seraphael: Your experience differs from mine. Considerably.
You are falling into the One True Way To Play trap. The only time I can think of that blappers may have had trouble with their ST damage potential was on Noise Complaint, a team of mostly Sonic Blasts, running mostly Assault, that took down archvillains in under a minute consistently. You may not have had time to run in and hit anything in that situation. Otherwise I get good ST damage in on Archvillains, Elite Bosses, regular bosses, Monsters and Giant Monsters, anything that wasn't in the cones or fireballs, and any weirdly lucky survivors that ended up within arm's reach. Consider the layer cake room in the blue caves... "Oh darn. I fell." SMACK BAM SLAM CRUNCH MANGLE. "Fortunately these Behemoths broke my fall."
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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Well. We were talking about team setting here and lets be honest; for most teams the only true way to play is to maximize xp earnings. Knocking spawns all over the place is counterproductive towards that end and is bound to not to make you many friends among your teammates.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Seraphael: Your experience differs from mine. Considerably.
You are falling into the One True Way To Play trap. |
Contrary to the impression I might have given; I do like playing out of the box characters. I've never made a Fire/Kin for instance, for me that is tantamount to cheating (allowing Kinetics for Controllers is one of the worst decisions in MMO history IMO). But not at any cost, teaming is where the fun is for the most part for me and I do like to feel that I contribute in a meaningful way. As a pure blapper I would be outdamaged by any Scrapper and with just a fraction of his survivability. Nothing in CoH sets your heart racing quite as much though, I'll admit to that.
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| The only time I can think of that blappers may have had trouble with their ST damage potential was on Noise Complaint, a team of mostly Sonic Blasts, running mostly Assault, that took down archvillains in under a minute consistently. You may not have had time to run in and hit anything in that situation. Otherwise I get good ST damage in on Archvillains, Elite Bosses, regular bosses, Monsters and Giant Monsters, anything that wasn't in the cones or fireballs, and any weirdly lucky survivors that ended up within arm's reach. Consider the layer cake room in the blue caves... "Oh darn. I fell." SMACK BAM SLAM CRUNCH MANGLE. "Fortunately these Behemoths broke my fall." |
I hear ya on the KB love..
My Blaster is Nrg/Device..
Mine + E-Blast + Nova or if on a lower DPS team throw out a Time Bomb first which will pick off the rest after your Big Bang Theory..
But aye Hover is how I get by with my KB I float directly above the Tank and knock things down.. Mines are usually skipped unless they do not mind the KB.. Although things do not tend to fly so far when I do a Mine then Hover straight up firing off a E-Blast...
As a blaster who has a tank, I don't hate kb. I hate that one in ten KB that will run into the middle of the group and spread 15 bad guys into the four corners of the room before I have gathered them against a wall.
Which can be avoided 100% avoided.
The only other thing I would suggest you be aware of with KB is the posibility for knocking something through the wall in a cave map. Espcially if what you are attacking is the mission objective. Not blaming KB for that just stating that they have to be aware that that can happen.
I do not have an NRG/NRG blaster but I do have toons that do KB. Only had one or two complaints and have never been kicked. Most recently received kudos for KB when a Boss type ran around the mines that had been set. Did some damage on him and then used KB to throw him into the mines. Dead boss. Errr, arrested boss.
My oldest blaster is nrg/nrg and I have a storm defender that I've been playing almost as long; if you know anything you know I pack KBx10 between those two. I've gotten a few friendly warnings with the energy blaster, but I've never been kicked for it. Generally, I stepped back and re-evaluated what I was doing when I received the complaint and tried to either tone it down by going single target or pay more attention to what I was doing.
My main/first 50 is an nrg/nrg. I have found that posistioning of myself makes the difference to wether or not my KB makes the big tank angry. I wait for a troller to lock em down before i unlesh the AOE stuff. Other than that a pick a target and knock him through deaths door, then move on to the next. That way i am the only one chasing around a bouncing bad guy... unless there is an MA scrapper on the team too
No one goes there anymore, it's too crowded...
"The potato goes in the FRONT."
I heavily disslike being on a team with people that use alot of KB. That said, I give everyone a chance to prove they can use it well. I play a blaster mostly, and yet I'm not a fan of KB. KU or KD are fantastic. Keeps enemies clumped togeather which for any melee toon, or AoE toon its great.
A few things I have learned....
1)KB is great to pin guys to walls.
2)KB will make me want to kill you if there is a raid, or invasion and you are in the middle of all the scrappers using it.
3)KB from above works almost exactly like KD, so i have no problems with flying Nrg. Gale from storm should never ever be used past lvl 3.
If you want to be successfull Nrg blaster, team up with a troller (as others have pointed out) and let them immob/hold all the guys you attack. This keeps baddies off you if they get free, while not pushing them away when people are wanting to kill.
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I beg to differ. Though I seldom ever use it, Gale can still be used effectively all throughout a stormy's career. Most of the time, people don't even notice it when I use Gale, but then, Gale is like any other KB power - something that you have to practice with to learn it's parameters.| Gale from storm should never ever be used past lvl 3. |
I think it still basically boils down to the player, not the ability. Some people take the time to learn to use it well, and others won't and give the rest of us a bad name.
Meh, I've been kicked simply for having Energy blast on my defender.
I dunno, I love my KB.
My main/First 50 in an energy/energy/force blaster and the only yime i've been kicked from a team was after a blind invite, and not for KB, the 3 members in the team views my info, and critiqued my build (bare in mind was only in my teens/early 20's level wise at the time and still working out what worked well and fitted thematically) with comments like why "no BU & Aim?", "Why sprint and hurdle?" and "Why no melee attacks?" The kick when i replied that i was building thematically and hadn't got to fitting those in yet... meh!
Apart from that i've had a few friendly jibes for SG teams that have "Had a plan" and proposed tying me up and leaving me at the mish entrance. KB, i have learnt is a efect that needs a lot of thought, and a KB heavy toon needs to be micromanaged, by the player and not the team that is, so as to make the KB beneficial as much as posible. Yes moving around to position effectively can result in lower DPS , but positioning mean you can make all your damage, and KB, count, I won't go into specifics of how to do that, as it's all been said many times already in this thread. But KB used well can be fun and effective, My SG started up a "Super Storm" Team, and though i didn't get on it, due to some off line time, i hear they had great fun rounding up whole maps and keeping them on thier back while they died... would love to have seen it!
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Yeah, this combo really does do the job, though, I go for FoA>EA as FoA sualy hit's before RoA does, but after aggro has be gained and then EA finishes off any survivors, the other way round and the KB from EA could scatter mobs away from the AoE of RoA or the cone of FoA oh, and if it's an EB/AV mob, add a survailence from the munitions epic on him/her at the start for the nice debuff.
| Archery: BU+Aim, Rain of Arrows, Exploding Arrow, Fistfull of Arrows (The Prickly Trifecta) |
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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I've got two 50 level archers which swear RoA+EA+FoA queued will all impact almost simultaneously and without KB from EA scattering the spawn away from the other AoEs. I might be wrong though, there's a lot of things happening all at the same time when I do.
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Originally Posted by St_Angelius
Yeah, this combo really does do the job, though, I go for FoA>EA as FoA sualy hit's before RoA does, but after aggro has be gained and then EA finishes off any survivors, the other way round and the KB from EA could scatter mobs away from the AoE of RoA
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Originally Posted by Seraphael
I've got two 50 level archers which swear RoA+EA+FoA queued will all impact almost simultaneously and without KB from EA scattering the spawn away from the other AoEs. I might be wrong though, there's a lot of things happening all at the same time when I do.
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Yeah, that way round could work, and may do 99% of the time, but that chance of the scatter makes me do it the other way most often.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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I love knockback.
I think its one of the fun unique things that makes CoH feel super-hero-y, and it's not in most other MMO's (WoW has added some simple kb effects in WoTLK, but nothing like CoH).
I have always wanted to roll up a NRG/NRG/Force, space blasting dude, and now with customization its going to be hawt (on paper).
The problem is, erm, doesn't *everyone* hate KB on a team? Is it going to cause AE teams to freak out with all the KB?
I mean, part of me would love to even slot KB, the ragdoll is just so much fun, but I am seriously worried about being ostracized to be honest.
Any thoughts?