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but just to be clear i have no desire to see debt return to teh point where you could be in debt for several levels.
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If you were in debt for several levels in those days, the problem wasn't with the debt levels, but with how you were playing your character... The devs only nerfed it because suicidal players kept moaning about it.
My PB still doesn't have her first debt badge... And I've been playing her since June 2005. 
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THIS is the absolute truth...
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I disagree with the pair of you it was rather easy to get into a lot of debt in the old days and i was a tank so my ability to avoid or withdraw from combat were rather limited when tanking for a team.
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Oh.. I got a lot of debt back in the early levels ... But I learned to play better to my AT in time. You have to figure out how an AT is meant to be played and suddenly you die a lot less often. Unless you have a team of suicidal players. Nothing can protect you from that.
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Which is largely my point debt gave death meaning you wanted to avoid death so you played smarter modified tactics etc.
Now there's far less debt so tactics largely go out the window, If head on charge doesn't work just keep repeating again and again till you eventually ware down your target (aka the lemming method)
FFM you keep referring to your PB getting the debt badges very late on but by the point you get a PB you've already went thru the learning experience of playing another AT to 50 so your already playing smarter. How was your first character for deaths/debt?
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FFM you keep referring to your PB getting the debt badges very late on but by the point you get a PB you've already went thru the learning experience of playing another AT to 50 so your already playing smarter. How was your first character for deaths/debt?
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My PB doesn't HAVE any debt badges. I already mentioned my first char though, my blaster. He didn't get his first debt badge until in the 40's.
Although technically, he wasn't my FIRST first character. My very first was a tanker in beta. Got him to level 24 before the end of beta and he didn't have any debt badges either.
It's all about play style. If you love to charge right and get stuck in to the fight without care or thought, then you're going to get debt. If you take care, fight a bit slower, and use tactics instead of brute force, then you won't get debt.
I'm not saying the former play style is wrong. If you have fun playing like that, then great! I'm just saying that it's a play style that has consequences.
EDIT: I also have a fire/ice blaster at level 50 who doesn't have any debt badges either! To me, it's a "badge" of honour!
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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It's all about play style. If you love to charge right and get stuck in to the fight without care or thought, then you're going to get debt. If you take care, fight a bit slower, and use tactics instead of brute force, then you won't get debt.
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Tell that to a brute
I do miss old debt, It used to make me run away from fights that were going south (with varying degrees of success) through fear of being lumbered with even yet more debt (early Imoba was not the best of survivors that he is today).
I feel especialy foolish as I oly recently realised the secret to blaster survivability lies in clinging to the cieling (via hover 
), though this was because I hated hover because it was so slow. Not so anymore 
*Super Edit*
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EDIT: I also have a fire/ice blaster at level 50 who doesn't have any debt badges either! To me, it's a "badge" of honour!
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oooh congratulations sir! Suddenly I feel obligated to match your success with my blaster(s). It shall truely be an accolade to hold close to my chest with pride should i succeed!
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This is why I love my triform so much.
I keep an eye on the tank. If he's in trouble, I'll shunt over to dwarf form and take the heat off him so that he can recover.
I keep an eye on the team debuffer, and if he's in trouble, throw a heal at him.
The rest of the time, I'm busy creaming bad guys and making the rest of the team wonder if it was worth them turning up.
[/ QUOTE ]Yeah, I get that too. With your PB going "angry Vorlon" one mobs, you have to remind the rest of team that you can only do that because they are making you that powerful.
Back OT:
The argument that new players won't know how to use tactics in combat is bunkum. You don't suddenly learn how to "pull" on reaching L20 with your first toon. I've seen L50s continually fail at pulling because they don't know how to break line-of-sight.
It may take a little time to perfect but using your brain is an L1 power
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It may take a little time to perfect but using your brain is an L1 power
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True. But many people seem to get that power permanently debuffed in the tutorial.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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Back OT:
The argument that new players won't know how to use tactics in combat is bunkum. You don't suddenly learn how to "pull" on reaching L20 with your first toon. I've seen L50s continually fail at pulling because they don't know how to break line-of-sight.
It may take a little time to perfect but using your brain is an L1 power
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i never said players would suddenly learn anything what i said was that debt gave death meaning.
While the learning curve in CoH was pretty far from steep there was thing that to learn that served you well in the later game these things are being eroded by the Dev's seeming constant need to make things easier.
I see the deduction in debt as pretty much chief amongst these erosion without debt death has no meaning. death is now just a cool way to get a huge buff via things like mutation or to get the team a big boost via the likes of vengeance.
you mention pulling whats the point when you can just keep charging in like a lemming?
The problem with ramping the debt back up is you stunt the progression rate of playing the game. Remember the content void that used to be the late 30s in CoH? Granted that wasn't entirely the fault of debt but the probable outcome is finishing all the storyarcs and then grinding out hours of tedious radio missions because you got killed a couple of times.
Ramping up XP debt = shortest route to XP grind. It does not make you think "I better be careful", it makes you think, " Oh heck, another hour of grinding to work that off".
XP Debt is not the answer, a new approach is worth looking at. A number of prominent MMOs use debuffs (stacking ones)as a "death penalty", maybe the Devs should take a look at them.
yes if it was ramped up to ridiculus proportions but i don't think i ever suggested that.
Pluss there is a fair bit more content in the 30+ area of teh game now than there was when in the past.
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make the XP gain 3x better and we MIGHT talk about an increase of debt.
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How about stop trying to make the game mind-numbingly pointless?
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it is pointless, it's grind.
and no, as long as there is only a hald on the fun, i keep saying what i like to say.
until xp is made better, just deal with it, bare with me, see it to no end.
Not happening. Deal with it.
Sam: "My mind is a swirling miasma of scintillating thoughts and turgid ideas."
Max: "Me too."
Stuff
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it is pointless, it's grind.
and no, as long as there is only a hald on the fun, i keep saying what i like to say.
until xp is made better, just deal with it, bare with me, see it to no end.
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You know... Try as I might, I can't actually work out what you're trying to say, there... It's just... gibberish.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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it is pointless, it's grind.
and no, as long as there is only a hald on the fun, i keep saying what i like to say.
until xp is made better, just deal with it, bare with me, see it to no end.
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You know... Try as I might, I can't actually work out what you're trying to say, there... It's just... gibberish.
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You've been here *how* long? And this is news to you?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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better yet, if you die in a mission a random enhancement gets dropped by 1 level. any enhancement that hits 0 is gone for good.
now lets see what fully purpled toon is willing to rush in regardless of the odds
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Purples are fixed at one level so wouldnt affect us in any way whatsoever
Anyway im all for bringing back the good old debt!
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curses! foiled again! I would have gotten away with it if it werent for those meddling toons.....
but yes, debt is not something to be feared anymore. I miss the fear. Its still there to a certain degree as my squishy blaster runs ina panic to escape the heavy melee mobs that regularly crush him but then he drops and the debt is paid off in less than one encounter....
Older MMOs had looting. you had to get back to your corpse before someone else looted it. That was a great incentive not to die (or at the least have a few mates you trusted laong with you). I think there should be a "hardcore" option in CoX where being defeated has more of an effect on you:
loss of inf (hey, you gain it for winning, shouldnt you
lose it for failing?),
loss of inf for failing missions,
deletion of random salvage piece,
deletion of random recipe
reduction in effectiveness of random enhancement.
The player signs up to what effects they are willing to suffer. in return they gain more inf / gain slightly better rewards etc. (shiney badges anyone? Hardcore Hero or Victorious Villain.... )
make it optional so it doesnt take away from the fun of those that dont want it. But in any case, I do agree that, at the least the punishing debt rules should be brought back. make survival something to be happy about and not just a bragging right.
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No, no and no. CoX isn't a hardcore MMO where you suffer huge losses of valuable stuff for dying, which is why it appeals to me.
If i wanted to drop all my equipment, money, jewels and weapons everytime i died, i'd play lineage 2. (which i do)
The game rewards your consistent hard work and grinding with level 50. It may not be something for YOU to look forward to anymore, because you KNEW what it was like to have fear of debt.
New players, who have no previous experience of this aren't going to see it the same way, so just leave it how it is.
And also, no to the guy that suggested death penalties. people would just constantly buy the cure for them (as per scroll of recovery in L2) and it would have no effect.
It's also another incentive to shove off aggro onto other people, and to be what people in L2 call 'Care bears'
I do not want that happening, the game is fine as it is.
I concur with Razor.
A game is meant to be fun. By and large, it still suceeds in that.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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In mission debt got halved way back. Also debt levels in general got dropped too. personally I'd be happy with debt in missions put back to the same as dying outside a mission. it's still go pretty quickly anyway. I do remember being level 50 and getting over 100,000 debt per death and begging a team to restart a Sister psyche TF so i could exemp and join them as it felt like the only way I'd make it through the 30-40 without having debt at least once. I dswear my Kin/Rad toon lived in perma-debt from about lvl 35 right through to about 43. I had all the detb badges and the defeat badges before she hit 50.
Defiant 50's
Many and varied!
@Miss Chief
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I concur with Razor.
A game is meant to be fun. By and large, it still suceeds in that.
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I may be jaded by my length of time in the game, but to me, less risk due to the minimal death penalty means less "rush", which equates to less fun and thus a shorter game lifespan for newer players.
CO has a great death penalty just implemented. Shame I can't actually mention what it is though as it'd be a great way of handling things.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Blast you Vladamir Harkonen for flounting your BETA access to us mere mortals who have yet to get in! *checks email again*
If anything, switch the debt given. As in, current mission death swapped with current Zone debt.
I never get that. It's like killed while randomly running = penalty, killed while on a job = less penalty...uhm? Hmm.
Anyhow, Works fine for me, so I aint complainin =P
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I concur with Razor.
A game is meant to be fun. By and large, it still suceeds in that.
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I may be jaded by my length of time in the game, but to me, less risk due to the minimal death penalty means less "rush", which equates to less fun and thus a shorter game lifespan for newer players.
CO has a great death penalty just implemented. Shame I can't actually mention what it is though as it'd be a great way of handling things.
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So if I asked a friend who I know is in beta and I'm guessing will tell me... and post it here can they stop me?
Me TBH I'd return to i3 debt levels but start at level 10 like now. With rested XP debt is fairly meaningless, and it is supposed to be there for a reason. At the moment its so trivial they might as well remove it entirely.
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I concur with Razor.
A game is meant to be fun. By and large, it still suceeds in that.
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I may be jaded by my length of time in the game, but to me, less risk due to the minimal death penalty means less "rush", which equates to less fun and thus a shorter game lifespan for newer players.
CO has a great death penalty just implemented. Shame I can't actually mention what it is though as it'd be a great way of handling things.
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So if I asked a friend who I know is in beta and I'm guessing will tell me... and post it here can they stop me?
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No, they can't STOP you, in China they can't STOP you from [censored] on Chairman Mao's statue, but they will not be happy about it...
I'd recommend your friend not to tell you.
Bad Voodoo by @Beyond Reach. Arc ID #373659. Level 20-24. Mr. Bocor has fallen victim to a group of hooded vigilantes who have been plaguing Port Oakes, interfering with illegal operations and pacifying villain's powers. He demands that revenge is taken on these miscreants and his powers are returned! You look like just the villain for the job. Challenging.
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I concur with Razor.
A game is meant to be fun. By and large, it still suceeds in that.
[/ QUOTE ]
I may be jaded by my length of time in the game, but to me, less risk due to the minimal death penalty means less "rush", which equates to less fun and thus a shorter game lifespan for newer players.
CO has a great death penalty just implemented. Shame I can't actually mention what it is though as it'd be a great way of handling things.
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So if I asked a friend who I know is in beta and I'm guessing will tell me... and post it here can they stop me?
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No, they can't STOP you, in China they can't STOP you from [censored] on Chairman Mao's statue, but they will not be happy about it...
I'd recommend your friend not to tell you.
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I play a game called Bejewelled Twist, its one of the frantic Popcap Games titles that are insanely time consuming. So as you continue to make matches you increase your XP... wait did I say XP?... score multiplier. When you die... wait... fail to make a match you lose that bonus and have to start again. 
CO is probably nothing like that.
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I play a game called Bejewelled Twist, its one of the frantic Popcap Games titles that are insanely time consuming. So as you continue to make matches you increase your XP... wait did I say XP?... score multiplier. When you die... wait... fail to make a match you lose that bonus and have to start again.
CO is probably nothing like that.
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HOLY ****. Who would play Bejewelled Twist!? That is an awful system, and certainly not a solution! And personally I'm surprised that a new puzzle-game maker would choose such a controversial system such as that!
Bad Voodoo by @Beyond Reach. Arc ID #373659. Level 20-24. Mr. Bocor has fallen victim to a group of hooded vigilantes who have been plaguing Port Oakes, interfering with illegal operations and pacifying villain's powers. He demands that revenge is taken on these miscreants and his powers are returned! You look like just the villain for the job. Challenging.
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Most Tank deaths I have seen since I started playing this game were the result of two factors:
1) The Tank getting overconfident/sloppy and taking on more than its primary could handle.
2) The rest of the team not supporting the Tank properly. (Too many times I've seen defenders blasting away when they should have been watching over their team's buffs)
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This is why I love my triform so much.
I keep an eye on the tank. If he's in trouble, I'll shunt over to dwarf form and take the heat off him so that he can recover.
I keep an eye on the team debuffer, and if he's in trouble, throw a heal at him.
The rest of the time, I'm busy creaming bad guys and making the rest of the team wonder if it was worth them turning up.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.