Changes to Kheldians in I13
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PBs can survive well in pvp but to say only two builds can beat them is so far from the truth.
Offhand - Any rad/cold debuffer, ss/wp brute, em/wp stalker, fire or ice/nrg blaster, any domi. Probably a bs/fire scrapper.
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Cold I've covered. Rad hasn't a hope, simply not enough -recharge to counter either Quantum Flight or the uninterruptable self-healing potential (Essence Boost 80% heal and HP Buff, Dwarf 50% Heal, Human 50% Heal), and not enough -resistance to counter Dwarf or Light Form. Super Strength has no worthwhile mez and is melee-only and therefore ignorable, ditto for Energy Melee (even with the stuns. Breakfrees, Dwarf and Light form will negate them if they ever actually manage to get within melee range of the PB). An Ice/NRG Blaster has not got enough -recharge to counter Quantum Flight nor enough unresisted damage to hit through Dwarf or Light Form. No Dominator except for /Psi is relevant; since they will not be able to stop the PB from TPing or shifting into Quantum Flight, they will stop building Domination and become easy to kite.
You have to remember that in a duelling situation a Peacebringer has greater survivability than a Regen Scrapper with Phase Shift even before you consider Light Form or Dwarf Form.
Two self heals - clones of Reconstruction and Dull Pain - and over 35% Resistance to everything but Psi, plus Quantum Flight, which is effectively Phase Shift on steroids with half the recharge time. Add in Light Form, Dwarf Form, and the inherent Dwarf Form Teleport and you are virtually unkillable.
It may technically be as cheesy as a Stalker staying in Hide the whole time, but with a Peacebringer you are visible the entire time, and in many cases actually trading blows. Unlike most other classes with uninterruptable self-heals, you also have ranged attacks and can annoy your pursuer and goad them into chasing you.
Yes, you can do a similar kind of "force a draw" thing on other ATs, but Peacebringers will do it better; and will be beatable by far fewer combinations. The only thing more survivable is a mobile Stalker that just sits at the stealth cap for the full ten minute duration of the duel.
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TPing away is not dueling. And usually its good form to let your opponent set up to some degree.
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And bad form to use inspirations I suppose? Hence your problem with break frees. I can't be doing with any of this erzatz chivalry crud. As far as I'm concered all's fair in love and war, and letting someone set up pets is shear stupidity, as is being defeated when you could retreat and regroup. He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day.
That's the only way I fight, you can like it or lump it.
So you PvP with self imposed restraints, then complain when it puts your AT at a disadvantage. I suppose you think it is bad form for a stalker to use hide to?
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Praf seriously what are you talking about?? A 1v1 arena match? Sure use every power available bar temps and pop as many insps as you want. I find either of those constraints quite stupid and usually they come from dominators or trollers who dont like to lose.
And seriously you think its skillfull to kill a MM while he is setting up? Decent players usually give set up time for all the various reasons they unbalance a fight. A tanker can toggle up in 10 seconds and be at full strength while a MM can take 60.
And mostly in fightclub zonal duels people tend to stick somewhere near to the arena style constraints in my experience. Mainly because it is so god damn far to arena terminals from zones.
And ultimately most people just want to see who will win in a fair fight.
And beyond that in zonal or team pvp I dont think a pb can contribute in the same league as a dedicated blaster or tanker.
The pb is still a distorted blapper. All its best attacks are melee and it has three shields and yet no mez prot. As i have stated before I dont understand the synergy there. Either keep the other powers and add 1pt of mez prot to each shield or just remove the shields and replace with more useful powers that will be worth taking.
And more than that how does it work conceptually that these space faring multi dimensional beings have the mental strength of a retarded chicken anyway?
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PBs can survive well in pvp but to say only two builds can beat them is so far from the truth.
Offhand - Any rad/cold debuffer, ss/wp brute, em/wp stalker, fire or ice/nrg blaster, any domi. Probably a bs/fire scrapper.
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Cold I've covered. Rad hasn't a hope, simply not enough -recharge to counter either Quantum Flight or the uninterruptable self-healing potential (Essence Boost 80% heal and HP Buff, Dwarf 50% Heal, Human 50% Heal), and not enough -resistance to counter Dwarf or Light Form. Super Strength has no worthwhile mez and is melee-only and therefore ignorable, ditto for Energy Melee (even with the stuns. Breakfrees, Dwarf and Light form will negate them if they ever actually manage to get within melee range of the PB). An Ice/NRG Blaster has not got enough -recharge to counter Quantum Flight nor enough unresisted damage to hit through Dwarf or Light Form. No Dominator except for /Psi is relevant; since they will not be able to stop the PB from TPing or shifting into Quantum Flight, they will stop building Domination and become easy to kite.
You have to remember that in a duelling situation a Peacebringer has greater survivability than a Regen Scrapper with Phase Shift even before you consider Light Form or Dwarf Form.
Two self heals - clones of Reconstruction and Dull Pain - and over 35% Resistance to everything but Psi, plus Quantum Flight, which is effectively Phase Shift on steroids with half the recharge time. Add in Light Form, Dwarf Form, and the inherent Dwarf Form Teleport and you are virtually unkillable.
It may technically be as cheesy as a Stalker staying in Hide the whole time, but with a Peacebringer you are visible the entire time, and in many cases actually trading blows. Unlike most other classes with uninterruptable self-heals, you also have ranged attacks and can annoy your pursuer and goad them into chasing you.
Yes, you can do a similar kind of "force a draw" thing on other ATs, but Peacebringers will do it better; and will be beatable by far fewer combinations. The only thing more survivable is a mobile Stalker that just sits at the stealth cap for the full ten minute duration of the duel.
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Dwarf atm is ok at best. An em stalker will kill you in two attack chains. Any one of the countless ss/wp/soul brutes running around with perma 2x rage will destroy dwarf very very quickly.
We are talking lvl 50 here? Lightform is great while its up but once that drops you have a second where you will die in one hit. Any pvp'er with awareness of that will kill you. And that covers almost any casual pvp'er. I always watch for god mode drops against anyone that uses them.
And yes if you go that far with it what you are saying is practically true for any AT whatsoever. Quantum flight is just phase shift and lightform and dwarf to a lesser degree are god modes. All ATs get access to one or both of them?
For instance a fire/em blaster can get phase shift and force of nature and tp. So whats the difference? Oh yeh a blaster outdamages a pb in any form by a huge factor.
And further where are all these unbeatable PBs anyway? In all my time in zones or arena I have seen very few. And those i do I only remember one who was actually ok but that was in sirens. Please come out and play and put me to shame.
Please come to RV!
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Praf seriously what are you talking about?? A 1v1 arena match?
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No, I don't PvP in arenas, its incredably dull. I'm interested in player vs player, not powerset vs powerset. I want as many tactical options as possible, so I can arrange the battlefield in my favor. Zones only for me.
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And seriously you think its skillfull to kill a MM while he is setting up?
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Not skillful, intellegent. The set up time is an intentional weakness of MMs. Not to take advantage of that weakness when you have an oportunity to do so is shear stupidity.
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remove the shields and replace with more useful powers that will be worth taking.
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The shields aren't compulsory you know. Keldians already get a lot of extra powers to choose from, so what you ask for is already an option. My PB only has the S/L shield, and does perfectly well.
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And more than that how does it work conceptually that these space faring multi dimensional beings have the mental strength of a retarded chicken anyway?
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They have exactly as much mental strength as the person playing them.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Dwarf atm is ok at best. An em stalker will kill you in two attack chains. Any one of the countless ss/wp/soul brutes running around with perma 2x rage will destroy dwarf very very quickly.
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I have an EM Stalker on account #2. He cannot scratch my Peacebringer in Dwarf form on account #1, assuming that said Peacebringer is in "evasion mode" or Perma-Essence-Boosted with Hasten running and his Self Heal ready.
When IO'ed, a PB Dwarf sits at 59% Resists to all but Psi (74% to Toxic actually, with Essence Boost), caps out at 2409 HP (which can be attained permanently), has an uninterruptable 50% Self Heal that is up every 18-19 seconds, and can Teleport at will.
Why exactly are you arguing attack chains? A good PvPer will NOT let you get attack chains off. EM is melee and therefore kitable.
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We are talking lvl 50 here? Lightform is great while its up but once that drops you have a second where you will die in one hit. Any pvp'er with awareness of that will kill you. And that covers almost any casual pvp'er. I always watch for god mode drops against anyone that uses them.
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Which is why you KITE. the other player can't hit you when he is nowhere near you. The Light Form crash is pretty heavy but it's quite possible to live through it. Even if you don't want to kite, you can still pop Purples, chug a blue and heal to full in considerably less than it takes either Energy Transfer or Total Focus to animate.
Against ATs that can shoot you with a fast-animating and fast-flying-projectile ranged attack when you're kiting, either make sure you will have an opportunity to break line of sight during the crash, or simply don't use light form until you're less than 3 minutes from the end of the 10 minute arena match.
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And yes if you go that far with it what you are saying is practically true for any AT whatsoever. Quantum flight is just phase shift and lightform and dwarf to a lesser degree are god modes. All ATs get access to one or both of them?
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Yes, and this is my point. Other ATs can get them TO A LESSER DEGREE. No other AT has access to two God modes, a self-tp and a phase shift in just three power picks. And incidentally, a Peacebringer can get the standard power pool Phase Shift as well.
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For instance a fire/em blaster can get phase shift and force of nature and tp. So whats the difference? Oh yeh a blaster outdamages a pb in any form by a huge factor.
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The difference is that the Fire/EM does not have Mez protection, its Resist cap is 75% not 85%, it does not have two uninterruptable self heals whilst using Force of Nature, FoN lasts two minutes as opposed to Light Form's three, and it does not have the capability to transform into an alternate form with mez protection, Base HP higher than the Blaster Max HP Cap, large resistance to all forms of damage, ANOTHER uninteruptable self heal and inherent Self-TP. Oh, and Phase shift recharges in double the time that Quantum Flight does.
And yes, of course a decently-built Fire Blaster outdamages a Peacebringer.
Caveat: in everything except
(i) At lower levels (when a Peacebringer is in Nova form and a Blaster has no SOs and/or few powers)
(ii) On a large team with lots of Tanks/Defenders for PB +damage but no actual allied +damage buffs.
(iii) When the Blaster is dead from actually believing themselves to be as survivable as an AT with a proper Defensive secondary powerset, and the Peacebringer still attacking.
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And further where are all these unbeatable PBs anyway? In all my time in zones or arena I have seen very few. And those i do I only remember one who was actually ok but that was in sirens. Please come out and play and put me to shame.
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They are exactly where you'd expect them to be. In storage or PvEing, because Peacebringers can't actually kill anything. You seem to *STILL* be associating "Virtually unkillable in PvP" with "Good/Enjoyable in PvP", which frankly speaks volumes about your experience and makes me wonder why you're not trying to PvP with a Stone/Ice Tanker.
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Please come to RV!
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No, thankyou. Even if I were inclined to PvP on my Peacebringer for pleasure, Duels take place in the arena, NOT in RV. And neither does much actual PvP... RV is for Farmers, Badgers and the insanely optimistic.
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And seriously you think its skillfull to kill a MM while he is setting up?
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Not skillful, intellegent. The set up time is an intentional weakness of MMs. Not to take advantage of that weakness when you have an oportunity to do so is shear stupidity.
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Q.F.T.
I have two level 50 MMs, one of which I've PvPed with.
On the one I've PvPed with, the time taken until it is at 100% effectiveness is just under 60 seconds.
The time taken until it is at 100% DEFENSIVE effectiveness is just under five seconds. Summon Henchmen x3, Summon FFG. Pop Accolade Shields and proceed to upgrade and/or setup fully whilst under fire.
I would never expect anyone to give my Mastermind any leeway at all. If you give me time to fully set up, I will very likely beat you, and after I beat you I will *still* be fully set up and ready to beat you again.
Even if I was somehow stupid enough to agree to fight in the Pocket D Monkey Cage map, I would still expect no leeway. It'd just mean I need to be FASTER at summoning henchmen and popping shields/purples.
"Zonal Fight club" is not a duel, and "Chivalry" is for heroes only.
Praf I dont remember insulting you beyond disagreeing with you so why the veiled insults to me?
Well I am not going to continue repeating myself for you both to continue post disections.
Actions speak louder than words. If you want to prove any of what you say just send me a tell @charnell
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"Chivalry" is for heroes only.
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Chivalry is only for self indulgant heroes who put their own pride above protecting the public.
I really should do something about this signature.
The changes in I13 are ok, though the damage boost should of been applied ages ago, but my concerns are still there, though most people will just look at this and instantly flame me. So here they are:
I find in Dwarf, that I cannot keep up with the constant Super Speed/Super Jump Villains but thats it.
Still dont have fitness pools active in forms, for me, this would free up 6 slots, plus having the ability to stick the unique health io's into health and benefiting from them in forms, instead of coming out every 2 minutes.
Dwarfs survivability is still linked to whether he can out heal the damage that is being done, the dwarfs heal i still think should be shortened.
Dwarfs movement still is slow and neither has protection from slow effects.
Can we have some fly protection on Nova, since that would be helpful, seeing as nova defence is to be able to fly away from melee.
And finaly, the inherent, though this is a nice change, but from i can tell, its still anti other kheldians since they dont count towards cosmic balance buffage.
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I find in Dwarf, that I cannot keep up with the constant Super Speed/Super Jump Villains but thats it.
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Why is that a problem? They have put a lot of effort into speed and manuverability. Why would you expect to be able to keep up when turned into a big lumbering thing? You have a better chance of keeping up with them than Granite anyway.
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Still dont have fitness pools active in forms, for me, this would free up 6 slots, plus having the ability to stick the unique health io's into health and benefiting from them in forms, instead of coming out every 2 minutes.
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I believe this is a matter of consistancy. Other pool powers can't work in forms because of the animations. So the rule has to be pool powers don't work in forms.
As for the unique health IOs, they are a serious waste of precious slots on a keldian. slot for regen and recovery set bonuses instead.
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Dwarfs survivability is still linked to whether he can out heal the damage that is being done
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This is the key equation fo any ATs suvivability.
With some back up, dwarf form will now be more suvivable than anything other than a GA tank (and do considerably more damage), I doubt they would think it needed any more buff.
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Can we have some fly protection on Nova, since that would be helpful, seeing as nova defence is to be able to fly away from melee.
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So melee can be even more lol in PvP you mean?
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its still anti other kheldians since they dont count towards cosmic balance buffage.
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Has to be the case really, or you would get unstoppable all keldian superteams that would make VEAT teams look like a bunch of gimps.
I really should do something about this signature.
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I find in Dwarf, that I cannot keep up with the constant Super Speed/Super Jump Villains but thats it.
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Why is that a problem? They have put a lot of effort into speed and manuverability. Why would you expect to be able to keep up when turned into a big lumbering thing? You have a better chance of keeping up with them than Granite anyway.
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Still dont have fitness pools active in forms, for me, this would free up 6 slots, plus having the ability to stick the unique health io's into health and benefiting from them in forms, instead of coming out every 2 minutes.
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I believe this is a matter of consistancy. Other pool powers can't work in forms because of the animations. So the rule has to be pool powers don't work in forms.
As for the unique health IOs, they are a serious waste of precious slots on a keldian. slot for regen and recovery set bonuses instead.
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Dwarfs survivability is still linked to whether he can out heal the damage that is being done
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This is the key equation fo any ATs suvivability.
With some back up, dwarf form will now be more suvivable than anything other than a GA tank (and do considerably more damage), I doubt they would think it needed any more buff.
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Can we have some fly protection on Nova, since that would be helpful, seeing as nova defence is to be able to fly away from melee.
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So melee can be even more lol in PvP you mean?
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its still anti other kheldians since they dont count towards cosmic balance buffage.
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Has to be the case really, or you would get unstoppable all keldian superteams that would make VEAT teams look like a bunch of gimps.
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Fine, but I dont have the defence or resistances as granite.
All accolades work in forms, even the crey pistol, so animation is an excuse.
Fly protection, did I say pvp? I dont think so, would be a nice pve buff.
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Fine, but I dont have the defence or resistances as granite.
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3 team mates and you have capped (85%) resistance to all but psi in dwarf form. Not as good as granite, but better than any other tanker, and with no crash, recharge, and with damage multipler 1.0, +80% from inherent melee damage.
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All accolades work in forms, even the crey pistol, so animation is an excuse.
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Jump Kick? and I would keep quiet about the Crey pistol, if I was you.
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Fly protection, did I say pvp? I dont think so, would be a nice pve buff.
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Why not just give all fly powers protection from -fly? that would make sense wouldn't it?!
And jump powers imune to -jump, and superspeed immune to slow effects....
As for defense, nova form can now get up to 70% resistance to all (with capped resistance to E/N), or mag 7 mez protection.
I really should do something about this signature.
Seeing as I'm almost, almost there with my first ever 50 (Carnal Sin is 46), will these changes make getting a Kheldian a more giggleworthy event? Reading the first page suggested to me that it would be fun to run a Human/Dwarf Peacebringer, running around in human form and generally splatting stuff, switching to Dwarf when it gets a bit hairy or to whittle down the tough groups a bit (mashing the status effect spammers no doubt) before the humanform SMASH!
And don't talk to me about the Nova. It's ugly, I don't want to be a floating blob of goo.
Chairman of the Charity of Pain; accepting donations of blood and guts.
Prophet of the Creamy Truth; "If it's empty, fill it with cream."
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Seeing as I'm almost, almost there with my first ever 50 (Carnal Sin is 46), will these changes make getting a Kheldian a more giggleworthy event? Reading the first page suggested to me that it would be fun to run a Human/Dwarf Peacebringer, running around in human form and generally splatting stuff, switching to Dwarf when it gets a bit hairy or to whittle down the tough groups a bit (mashing the status effect spammers no doubt) before the humanform SMASH!
And don't talk to me about the Nova. It's ugly, I don't want to be a floating blob of goo.
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Yeah, but it's a floating blob of goo that can make the toughest of bad guys cry for their mommies!
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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Seeing as I'm almost, almost there with my first ever 50 (Carnal Sin is 46), will these changes make getting a Kheldian a more giggleworthy event? Reading the first page suggested to me that it would be fun to run a Human/Dwarf Peacebringer, running around in human form and generally splatting stuff, switching to Dwarf when it gets a bit hairy or to whittle down the tough groups a bit (mashing the status effect spammers no doubt) before the humanform SMASH!
And don't talk to me about the Nova. It's ugly, I don't want to be a floating blob of goo.
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Yeah, but it's a floating blob of goo that can make the toughest of bad guys cry for their mommies!
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Yep, you forgive it a lot of things once you see how effective the AOE Cone is. Damn thing does amazing damage and is incredibly wide. Especially since you've an AOE attack to follow it up with.
Even with a Peacebringer "only" having a 10 second build up you should easily get a nice Build Up > Nova > Cone > AOE chain off.
Pre-level 20 you should certainly take and use Nova, otherwise you may find things a bit of a grind. Then, once you hit 22 or so Respec, preload your Dwarf slots and you can drop Nova if you don't want it.
Personally I love being able to hover over a spawn and rain down death before drop-shifting into Dwarf to taunt the survivors (or in the case of a WS, dropping in Human form to do a Hold Boss > Summon Pet from a corpse > Stygian Circle combo).
Plus, Nova form is a total godsend on those hunt missions in The Hollows or Perez. All those lovely mobs of villains just waiting for your AoE's...
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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Plus, Nova form is a total godsend on those hunt missions in The Hollows or Perez. All those lovely mobs of villains just waiting for your AoE's...
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Yep, I don't think I've actually DONE any missions solo with my Warshade, instead I just street hunted with my LFT flag on and harvested evil doers in hazard zones.
*Edit, oh I did one mission at about level 5, that was it. I'm now level 33.
Edit : Actually Khorak, with the WS Dwarf changes, especially the change to its Mire (its becoming short lasting & short recharge) a double miring Dark Dwarf would seem to be getting close to something like a Brute of some sort. Especially when you consider you have 1-2 pets which easily outdamage individual Fire Imps tagging along behind you.
I'm actually getting quite giddy thinking about how vicious a Human/Dwarf WS build could be, especially against hordes of non-purple, non-boss enemies, although I love raining AOE death too much to make it my priority main build.
Hmmm...Ive never been a number cruncher, but this is getting me ready to slap respecs on my Khelds and their I13 alt builds now.
Human form and Dwarf/Nova form builds...tasty. So long as I stop listening to the insidous little voice that comes with Mids and keeps murmuring about pruple sets and bonuses...
And, back to a previous post about Crabs and PVP...I *wish*...I wish...
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Mmm double mire.
Last night I finally got around to seeing how i13 has changed things for my PB. I have to say I'm impressed, her damage ouput has improved dramatically and the ability to shift to Dwarf when mezzed really has made her into something of a blitzer.
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Last night I finally got around to seeing how i13 has changed things for my PB. I have to say I'm impressed, her damage ouput has improved dramatically and the ability to shift to Dwarf when mezzed really has made her into something of a blitzer.
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It's really quite astonishing isn't it? Shame about the narf to forms switching in combat, but I can live with that for the sheer "What the f...!?" we now have!
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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It's really quite astonishing isn't it? Shame about the narf to forms switching in combat, but I can live with that for the sheer "What the f...!?" we now have!
[/ QUOTE ]I didn't notice any change to toggling forms during play but I'm still using rather simple strategies.
It was funny (and somewhat embarrasing) when the Tank I was teamed with would get to a mob only to have them blasted to bits around him before he could get more than a couple of hits in.
I'm left asking, "Did I do that? "
Then I get, "I'll just stand in the corner while you clear the mission. " from the tank.
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It's really quite astonishing isn't it? Shame about the narf to forms switching in combat, but I can live with that for the sheer "What the f...!?" we now have!
[/ QUOTE ]I didn't notice any change to toggling forms during play but I'm still using rather simple strategies.
It was funny (and somewhat embarrasing) when the Tank I was teamed with would get to a mob only to have them blasted to bits around him before he could get more than a couple of hits in.
I'm left asking, "Did I do that? "
Then I get, "I'll just stand in the corner while you clear the mission. " from the tank.
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It's to do with being unable to detoggle when powers are queued, so can't drop out of forms until your power queue is cleared. Stops you double miring or double footstomp, and tends to slow down fast shifting in combat, but it's not TOO bad.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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It's really quite astonishing isn't it? Shame about the narf to forms switching in combat, but I can live with that for the sheer "What the f...!?" we now have!
[/ QUOTE ]I didn't notice any change to toggling forms during play but I'm still using rather simple strategies.
It was funny (and somewhat embarrasing) when the Tank I was teamed with would get to a mob only to have them blasted to bits around him before he could get more than a couple of hits in.
I'm left asking, "Did I do that? "
Then I get, "I'll just stand in the corner while you clear the mission. " from the tank.
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Der you shooters and yur mass damage! /e shakefist
Still, if the mobs die that fast, it makes a tankers life easier
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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TPing away is not dueling. And usually its good form to let your opponent set up to some degree.
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And bad form to use inspirations I suppose? Hence your problem with break frees. I can't be doing with any of this erzatz chivalry crud. As far as I'm concered all's fair in love and war, and letting someone set up pets is shear stupidity, as is being defeated when you could retreat and regroup. He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day.
That's the only way I fight, you can like it or lump it.
So you PvP with self imposed restraints, then complain when it puts your AT at a disadvantage. I suppose you think it is bad form for a stalker to use hide to?
I really should do something about this signature.