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Edit: Thought you where talking about Dawn Strike. Solar Flare? I didn't think anyone took that. It's a rubbish power, you can't use it in the air, and the damage sucks. About the only reason to take it is because the knockback is useful when soloing. Make it knockdown and it wouldn't even be good for that.
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Wait, what? Knockdown is always better than Knockback, especially on teams. And especially since Knockdown can always be slotted back up to Knockback if you really want too. Making something Knockback -> Knockdown is always a better idea as it makes the power more flexible. In terms of incapacitation time there's little difference between the two anyway (but as least with Knockdown they're clustered nice and close for any follow-up AOE you or your team unleash)
*Edit : And looking at the stats Solar Flare recharges in 20 seconds. You can't see the value in a PBAOE that can do knockdown every 10 seconds when slotted up PRAF? That'd greatly increase the usefulness of the power, especially on teams, for human form PBs.
To clarify, -radial- knockback (Any PBAoE, such as Hand Clap or Solar Flare in this example) is terribly bad. It's terribad.
Knockback that knocks everything more-or-less in the same direction (Gale) can be used well, though. By people who know -how- to use it well. Which the majority of PUG players, from my personal experience, do not.
Solar Flare is not PUG friendly. It looks cool so a lot of fresh new PBs take it, and then they run into the middle of the tightly packed spawn and use it, ruining other peoples' AoEs.
Solo (or in situations when you find yourself isolated), radial knockback is quite useful, especially if you are well equiped with ranged powers.
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You can't see the value in a PBAOE that can do knockdown every 10 seconds when slotted up PRAF?
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Not useful for me, as I am slotted up with +def set bonuses, and always fight with Hover on.
I really should do something about this signature.
Well, this is of course subjective, but I find a solo Kheldian is out of his optimal environment. 
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Solo (or in situations when you find yourself isolated), radial knockback is quite useful, especially if you are well equiped with ranged powers.
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You can't see the value in a PBAOE that can do knockdown every 10 seconds when slotted up PRAF?
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Not useful for me, as I am slotted up with +def set bonuses, and always fight with Hover on.
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You are not the vast majority of PB players though PRAF. Most I've seen don't fight in perma-hover mode. And since you wouldn't take it either way I don't see why you think a PBAOE knockdown wouldn't be more useful to the majority of PB players.
I've never been in a situation where I thought a PBAOE Knockback would have been useful really... Whereas a PBAOE knockdown is always nice. And like I said if you really loved the knockback one Knockback SO would convert it back to its old form anyway.
Oh, I thought of one place PBAOE knockback is handy, that really annoying "Stop 30 Fir Bolg escaping" mission.
Personally I think changing it to knockdown could only be a good move, with no drawbacks at all.
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I don't see why you think a PBAOE knockdown wouldn't be more useful to the majority of PB players.
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That's not what I said. I was simply challenging the assertion that it was a particularly good power.
Yes, KD is usually better than KB. The devs know this, and take it into account when balancing powers. What nerf would you have in exchange for a buff to Solar Flare?
I really should do something about this signature.
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I don't see why you think a PBAOE knockdown wouldn't be more useful to the majority of PB players.
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That's not what I said. I was simply challenging the assertion that it was a particularly good power.
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No, you said [ QUOTE ]
Edit: Thought you where talking about Dawn Strike. Solar Flare? I didn't think anyone took that. It's a rubbish power, you can't use it in the air, and the damage sucks. About the only reason to take it is because the knockback is useful when soloing. Make it knockdown and it wouldn't even be good for that.
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In other words now it sucks, and would suck even more if it was made knockdown. I strongly disagree with that assertion.
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Yes, KD is usually better than KB. The devs know this, and take it into account when balancing powers. What nerf would you have in exchange for a buff to Solar Flare?
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I wouldn't have any.
PBs could do with a bit of help later on to keep them in step with WS's, this change would follow the "PBs are better at tanking, WSs are better at damage" ethos that the 2 ATs follow.
Given that PBs are so shiney, they could have a -ToHit PbAoE effect added to Shining Shield and Dwarf Form. Just a small secondary effect, say 3-5%.
That would give them a bit of thematically appropriate survivability that would fit with the "better at tanking" concept.
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Given that PBs are so shiney, they could have a -ToHit PbAoE effect added to Shining Shield and Dwarf Form. Just a small secondary effect, say 3-5%.
That would give them a bit of thematically appropriate survivability that would fit with the "better at tanking" concept.
[/ QUOTE ]Oh come on. PBs already have a Gauntlet effect in White Dwarf Flare when WSs don't have one in Black Dwarf Mire. Giving PBs a freaking taunt aura on top of this is a bit much. I wanna keep agro too, you know.
Give Black Dwarf access to Orbiting Death if you're doing this. <_<
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Given that PBs are so shiney, they could have a -ToHit PbAoE effect added to Shining Shield and Dwarf Form. Just a small secondary effect, say 3-5%.
That would give them a bit of thematically appropriate survivability that would fit with the "better at tanking" concept.
[/ QUOTE ]Oh come on. PBs already have a Gauntlet effect in White Dwarf Flare when WSs don't have one in Black Dwarf Mire. Giving PBs a freaking taunt aura on top of this is a bit much. I wanna keep agro too, you know.
Give Black Dwarf access to Orbiting Death if you're doing this. <_<
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I did have the thought (before the i13 changes to Khelds) that it'd be nice to mark a few Human Form powers as usable in Nova or Dwarf form (including maybe one power pool for each). Unlikely / unneeded now really (but I'd still like a taunt in Mire please).
I would like to see a taunt aura on both dwarf forms.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Given that PBs are so shiney, they could have a -ToHit PbAoE effect added to Shining Shield and Dwarf Form. Just a small secondary effect, say 3-5%.
That would give them a bit of thematically appropriate survivability that would fit with the "better at tanking" concept.
[/ QUOTE ]Oh come on. PBs already have a Gauntlet effect in White Dwarf Flare when WSs don't have one in Black Dwarf Mire. Giving PBs a freaking taunt aura on top of this is a bit much. I wanna keep agro too, you know.
Give Black Dwarf access to Orbiting Death if you're doing this. <_<
[/ QUOTE ]Actually White Dwarf Flare has no such effect. Both Dwarf Forms have the same Taunt power.
I wasn't suggesting that the -ToHit effect addition to White Dwarf and Shining Shield should have a taunt aspect.
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Actually White Dwarf Flare has no such effect.
[/ QUOTE ] Circled it for you. (Clicky)
I stand corrected. 
And now, I think I'll go and gloat at a WS for being an inadequate tanker. 
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I stand corrected.
And now, I think I'll go and gloat at a WS for being an inadequate tanker.
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*Floats in Nova form with 85% resistances and 130% damage boost*
It's ok. We can take it
I suppose thats the other side of the argument, WS Dwarfs get an easily perma AOE power which also boosts their form damage significantly, plus they'll have 1-2 pets floating behind them also dishing out punishment. And they can carry over Human Mire & Eclipse into Dwarf form too. Making them weaker pure Tanks than PBs is something I can deal with in return for all that damage capability.
It does make for some frantic play when you aggro 3 mobs of Rikti at once or whatever though, like the fun PuG I was on last night. It was great fun TPing about and trying to off-Tank the extra spawns but I really did wish I had something a bit more reliable than just Taunt to keep the ones close to me on me. Although no-one died so I suppose that's success
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*Floats in Nova form with 85% resistances and 130% damage boost*
It's ok. We can take it
I suppose thats the other side of the argument, WS Dwarfs get an easily perma AOE power which also boosts their form damage significantly, plus they'll have 1-2 pets floating behind them also dishing out punishment. And they can carry over Human Mire & Eclipse into Dwarf form too. Making them weaker pure Tanks than PBs is something I can deal with in return for all that damage capability.
[/ QUOTE ]That pretty much sums up why Warshades have no reason to complain. While a taunt aura would be convenient for a WS that wants to tank, it would make them over perform compared to PBs. That's assuming they don't already.
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*Floats in Nova form with 85% resistances and 130% damage boost*
It's ok. We can take it
I suppose thats the other side of the argument, WS Dwarfs get an easily perma AOE power which also boosts their form damage significantly, plus they'll have 1-2 pets floating behind them also dishing out punishment. And they can carry over Human Mire & Eclipse into Dwarf form too. Making them weaker pure Tanks than PBs is something I can deal with in return for all that damage capability.
[/ QUOTE ]That pretty much sums up why Warshades have no reason to complain. While a taunt aura would be convenient for a WS that wants to tank, it would make them over perform compared to PBs. That's assuming they don't already.
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In terms of orange numbers WS's are a fair bit ahead but one of my Defiant SG mates runs a Dwarf PB and he's quite capable of being the main tank in most situations, including the LGTF with little problem. If I tried that with my WS it'd be... messy. 
Especially once I ran into an AV.
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In terms of orange numbers WS's are a fair bit ahead but one of my Defiant SG mates runs a Dwarf PB and he's quite capable of being the main tank in most situations, including the LGTF with little problem. If I tried that with my WS it'd be... messy. Especially once I ran into an AV.
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Actually managed to properly Tank my first AV last night doing a 4 man Nemises Rex arc. Was touch and go for a long time with me Siphoning desperetely at a constant sliver of health (and just spamming Taunt and the heavier melee attack), but my team saved my [censored] a few times, giving me precious blues at one point.
Our Kinetics controller was down for the count for half the battle too until the leader TPed him out of danger. Once the Kin was back up Health and End were sorted, I could spam all my attacks including Dwarf Mire and down Nemises Rex went.
Hurrah for excellent teamwork (they did most of the work really, all I did was spam Taunt and Heal for the most part and let him hit me).
And boo to AVs. They really are annoying to a Warshade since so many of your cool powers are bugger all use. Mind you that's probably fair enough considering what a WS can do for the rest of the mission with all the juicy Mirebait hanging around in nice convenient clusters.
Also I was thinking why I *wouldn't* like Black Dwarf Mire to get a Taunt. I use it quite a lot as a prelude to a shapeshift & Nuke or Hold -> Corpse Explosion combo. Don't think I'd like those hit by the Mire to suddenly focus their ire on me as I'm shifting into Human form.
It'd be nice for when you are the main tank in a group but for the most part I end up either off-tanking or just form dancing and I've rarely thought "Man, I wish I could taunt more of them".
A Dark Dwarf with sufficient slots has always been a very capable tank against AV's and small groups. It is the larger groups that I sometimes have a problem with because you need at least 3 taunts to get full aggro and that is going to take 10seconds even on a fully pimped build. Teams just don't give you that kind of time.
My Dwarf form has the enough slots to actually out-DPS nova for single target damage now and a well slotted heal means only AV's with massive +DEF god modes are a problem: providing you have enough blues not to run out of endurance!
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It'd be nice for when you are the main tank in a group but for the most part I end up either off-tanking or just form dancing and I've rarely thought "Man, I wish I could taunt more of them".
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I am starting to agree with you now as my use of Dwarf has changed a lot.
Pre-i13 I only used Dwarf when I needed to tank or survive a rogue boss coming to hit my face, but now with the new Mire changes it has become a very good scrapper (So good I say scrapper rather than scranker) and I use it quite a lot in a shape shifting combo where too much aggro could get me killed (Nova to Dwarf, then run in to Eclipse mid battle). If I got a load of aggro from just running in it might see me getting killed the second dwarf drops and before Eclipse fires.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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A Dark Dwarf with sufficient slots has always been a very capable tank against AV's and small groups. It is the larger groups that I sometimes have a problem with because you need at least 3 taunts to get full aggro and that is going to take 10seconds even on a fully pimped build. Teams just don't give you that kind of time.
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The problem I had was that our support toon died almost straight away so I was absorbing the AV & his spawns damage (along with a "captive" group that was close) at the start which almost overwhelmed me and from there I was mostly playing catch-up health-wise. My teammates made it a lot easier by clearing out those spawns while I held their attention (or tried to).
But yep, it was End which was the killer since there were only 3 of us plinking away on the AV for the most part until the Scrapper TPed the Kinetics out of harms way for a Rez.
I actually welcomed the breaks when Nemises Rex threw up his PFF for a quick breather. I was actually considering suicide at one point simply to use my Self Rez as I'd end up with more Health and End than I currently had, but figured that could get very messy (and I only had the AV to bounce Stygian Return off)
Once the Kin was back up it was fairly trivial as we were sorted for Health and End again.
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If I got a load of aggro from just running in it might see me getting killed the second dwarf drops and before Eclipse fires.
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This is still the thing that gets me killed the most. Dropping defenses to try and pull some off some snazzy human form combo instead. Those Mired nukes & mini-nukes are just too tempting, especially when you know if you manage it your going to outright kill most of the spawn shooting at you (and thus have a lot of bodies to feed off after it)
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This is still the thing that gets me killed the most. Dropping defenses to try and pull some off some snazzy human form combo instead. Those Mired nukes & mini-nukes are just too tempting, especially when you know if you manage it your going to outright kill most of the spawn shooting at you (and thus have a lot of bodies to feed off after it)
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Haha yes
I am pretty sure I could go forever without getting killed but where is the fun in that?
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I was actually considering suicide at one point simply to use my Self Rez as I'd end up with more Health and End
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Another tactic I have found myself doing before
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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Well, I suppose opinions differ. Personally I'd still like a taunt in Dwarf Mire. But I have Hasten, so my Eclipse and Sunless Mire are up most of the time anyway, and I use Dwarf Mire more as a self-buffing spammable attack than an actual selfbuff.
Double Mire seems unnecessary these days because the Inherent works in forms, while the damage cap was not raised. However, I can understand how some may want to squeeze that damage bonus into a human form trick or two while Sunless Mire is down. Matter of playstyle?
Also, I somehow end up fighting mez-heavy enemies these days, so I don't get much of a temptation to drop Dwarf once I'm in it already, heh.
Since I'm addicted to the hilarious AoE damage output Mired Nova form has, I tend to only use Dwarf for tanking or against mez-heavy enemies. It's always a pain to try to get enemies to focus on me when Taunt has a target cap of only 5 and Mire doesn't do much for agro compared to the Blasters' fireballs. Blarg.
I think it's important to remember that although Kelds may be able to fill in for Tankers in a pinch, they aren't supposed to equal or replace them in their role.
"Jack of all trades, master of none" and all that.
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I think it's important to remember that although Kelds may be able to fill in for Tankers in a pinch, they aren't supposed to equal or replace them in their role.
"Jack of all trades, master of none" and all that.
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If this is the case, why bring one along? Why have any khelds in any team when a "pure" class can do the job/role far better?
I made a quick PB build for a friend the other day and noticed that they do have some pretty hefty recharge on most of their melee attacks so I had to use the first tier blast to fill out the melee attack chain as that is always up.
As for the KB I think it can be used well, but anyone who opens with a massive KB (IE: FAR FAR FAR too many PB's) is playing badly, its not necessarily the AT.
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!