Different mix : claws + toxic + psi + sr + hide for widows (more psi for fortunatas, more claws/sr for night widows), melee attacks + ranged attacks + armor + heal for crabs.
Only banes seemed to be stalkers without AS but with more placate... Until the nerf of placate (20s rech -> 60s rech, like stalkers), which make them just under-stalkers (if I believe the comms).
And they look Sexeh. In my history I have roled 5 AR/ *'s and still manage to LOVE Wolf Spiders.
This is why most people fall down when trying Villains.
You just can not compare villains to heroes.
If you say for example a brute is a tank or a stalker is a scrapper then you stay playing very badly and do not enjoy the experience.
So villains are villains, heroes are heroes and VEATs are VEATs, just don't compare them to hero AT's and play them as villains a totally separate AT and you'll enjoy it alot more.
Defiant's GoEH/MILITIS METUS
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This is why most people fall down when trying Villains.
You just can not compare villains to heroes.
If you say for example a brute is a tank or a stalker is a scrapper then you stay playing very badly and do not enjoy the experience.
So villains are villains, heroes are heroes and VEATs are VEATs, just don't compare them to hero AT's and play them as villains a totally separate AT and you'll enjoy it alot more.
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Quoted For Truth
Have a read - it's an early draft but should give you an idea of some of the unique selling points of the SoA AT's.
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This is why most people fall down when trying Villains.
You just can not compare villains to heroes.
If you say for example a brute is a tank or a stalker is a scrapper then you stay playing very badly and do not enjoy the experience.
So villains are villains, heroes are heroes and VEATs are VEATs, just don't compare them to hero AT's and play them as villains a totally separate AT and you'll enjoy it alot more.
[/ QUOTE ]
Quoted For Truth
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Yes but who was comparing villains to heroes?
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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This is why most people fall down when trying Villains.
You just can not compare villains to heroes.
If you say for example a brute is a tank or a stalker is a scrapper then you stay playing very badly and do not enjoy the experience.
So villains are villains, heroes are heroes and VEATs are VEATs, just don't compare them to hero AT's and play them as villains a totally separate AT and you'll enjoy it alot more.
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Quoted For Truth
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Yes but who was comparing villains to heroes?
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The OP was it seems:
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Looking at the videos/info seems that this AT are stalkers/defenders/blasters (claws, assault riffle, and psi).
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But I was QFT-ing on a general level since I've seen people do it so often.
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This is why most people fall down when trying Villains.
You just can not compare villains to heroes.
If you say for example a brute is a tank or a stalker is a scrapper then you stay playing very badly and do not enjoy the experience.
So villains are villains, heroes are heroes and VEATs are VEATs, just don't compare them to hero AT's and play them as villains a totally separate AT and you'll enjoy it alot more.
[/ QUOTE ]
Quoted For Truth
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Yes but who was comparing villains to heroes?
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The OP was it seems:
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Looking at the videos/info seems that this AT are stalkers/defenders/blasters (claws, assault riffle, and psi).
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But I was QFT-ing on a general level since I've seen people do it so often.
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Im not comparing, just asking cause seems, to me in the videos, that they are the same... I undestand than a brute is a brute and tank is a tank, not comparing. Just asking to see the diferences cause It seems, at first, that the powers are too similars to ones I said.
I think you are missing the point. A fire/fire tank has almost the same powers as a fire/fire brute, but they don't play the same.
I really should do something about this signature.
That's like saying Mastermind /traps is similar to /FF, because it has force field generator.
While the individual powers might not be a lot to get excited about, there are a number of unique cornerstone powers in the branches that define what you're capable of doing. Add in the very handy uber-leaderships, a smattering of different damage types, debuffs, unique content, and some awesome outfits. The playstyle is truly unique. They made archetypes that can be played in many unique ways for the game where the archetypes can already be played in many ways, and succeeded.
Necrobond - 50 BS/Inv Scrapper made in I1
Rickar - 50 Bots/FF Mastermind
Anti-Muon - 42 Warshade
Ivory Sicarius - 45 Crab Spider
Aber ja, nat�rlich Hans nass ist, er steht unter einem Wasserfall.
[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:[/color]<hr />
While the individual powers might not be a lot to get excited about, there are a number of unique cornerstone powers in the branches that define what you're capable of doing. Add in the very handy uber-leaderships, a smattering of different damage types, debuffs, unique content, and some awesome outfits. The playstyle is truly unique. They made archetypes that can be played in many unique ways for the game where the archetypes can already be played in many ways, and succeeded.
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Can you explain me how a bane can be played (in solo) in a way which wouldn't be the one of the stalker ? Of a poor stalker without as ?
The two have some medium shields (but the bane's anti-mezz is much worse), and the two rely on the same placate (since placate's nerf on bane) to do interesting damages, which are equivalent for the 2 ats (but the bane can't use as)...
Ok, crab is unique, fortunata is unique, night widow can be unique (but can also just be a claws/sr stalker withtout as, it depends on the build), but the bane... I just can't see how it couldn't just be an under-stalker.
It's not very important for me, since I always wanted to do a crab (only epic I find really "super"), but it's a pity for those who wanted a bane.
And I fear a proliferation of crabs, widows and fortunatas, whereas I hoped to be a little original, since the bane seemed more powerful than the crab, before placate's nerf ^^'
Theory Alert:
Banes shouldn't really be stepping on a Stalkers toes in the art of assassination. Without question.
Without me mathing it, the burst dps looks awfully close to stepping on a stalkers toes but burst damage I guess is essential to what Banes do.
Especially as people in teams don't really care for stalkers as it is you really don't want the stalkers toes stepped on too much completely invalidating them but you have to allow Banes decent burst damage in melee as I guess thats what they do.
So perhaps another thing a Bane shouldn't be stepping on a stalkers toes with, therefore is prolonged melee dps and so they aren't given the survivability to have a prolonged position in melee range which probably only shows against higher ranks.
When soloing a Bane you can say come close to stepping on a stalkers toes in terms of burst damage but then be forced to kite and blast at a lower rate of damage to survive to prevent further stepping on stalkers toes. I know your solo but I guess they have to leave people at least some reason for people to make a stalker.
Range dps is lower than melee dps leaving stalkers in terms of damage over time a better choice to have in teams instead of Banes..like people care 
. Banes however can for one, buff other people in teams probably making them more attractive in an alternative way.
Either way I don't see the VEATs completely finalized until they go live where the better datamining can be done and you can probably make a bane that steps on a stalkers toes in terms of dps over a long period of time if you want to.
As I haven't gone through attack chains I could be talking complete balls right now but nothings ever stopped me before.
But overall, somehow I feel I have shifted into the "sod banes, what about stalkers?" camp.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Can you explain me how a bane can be played (in solo) in a way which wouldn't be the one of the stalker ? Of a poor stalker without as ?
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If you do try to play your bane this way, you will spend a lot of time faceplanted. Banes simply don't have the melee range defenses to play like a stalker.
The most effective way to play a bane seems to be as a blapper. Open with your strongest steath strike, then jump out of melee range and use you ranged attacks.
However, with thier strong team buffs, banes are far more desirable on a team than any stalker.
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Without me mathing it, the burst dps looks awfully close to stepping on a stalkers toes but burst damage I guess is essential to what Banes do.
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You need to do the math then. Bane (or Widow) burst damage isn't even close to what stalkers are capable of. Even a stalker who neglects to take AS will do more burst damage.
I really should do something about this signature.
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That's like saying Mastermind /traps is similar to /FF, because it has force field generator.
While the individual powers might not be a lot to get excited about, there are a number of unique cornerstone powers in the branches that define what you're capable of doing. Add in the very handy uber-leaderships, a smattering of different damage types, debuffs, unique content, and some awesome outfits. The playstyle is truly unique. They made archetypes that can be played in many unique ways for the game where the archetypes can already be played in many ways, and succeeded.
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One thing. Im not complaining, just asking. Asking that for me, they seem to similar to something we already got, instead of the epic of heroes that got lot of new powers/concept in comparision with other ats, villains givme a felling like a "pool mix", not new powers, so nothing new, just something like corruptor vs defender, or what someone said previously, brute/tank fire/fire. Yes, they are not the "same" but they are, obiusly very very very similar, and who says that they are not very similar... using same powers... its true they play different, and, im not comparing AT's. This is not my idea.
I was just asking what this epic at got new, cause as said, they seem something like a bit modified stalker, defender or corruptor... but, in essence, they use the same power set. Remember, is a question, whats new on the powersets? or are just a mix of other ats?
Kheldians recycled a lot of powers too, they just happened to get some nice new colours.
@Jay Leon Hart
Kerensky: this has nothing to do with underwear
Zwillinger: I put on my robe and wizard hat...
Synapse: I had to resist starting my last post off with "Yo dawg!"
There are no new ATs and no new powers.
You have powers that do damage, powers that protect from damage, powers that buff and powers that debuff. All ATs are [ QUOTE ]
just a mix of other ats
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I really should do something about this signature.
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Kheldians recycled a lot of powers too, they just happened to get some nice new colours.
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but they at least they got somethings like "metamorphosis"... not only colours, the inherent travel power, and, if just colours, they are more than I saw on the videos (except for the crab that feels awesome at first impresion) Instead, the Villains AT seems that have taken one power from one at and one for other, but, still being the same, and, hope that not, they work very similar to others at. (for ex, assault rifle from one, placate from other).
Insist, that I know its not the same but rad/rad defender is very similar to rad/rad cor, the same for a brute/tank... its not the same, but there are more similar thing than different ones, and, I hope, the similar things on this epic at are just the "animation or colours" and the powers are way faar to be just "the same compilation" of other AT's
It sounds like you are looking for "flashness" over substance, and you like to be railroaded into a paticular stype of play. In which case, no, you probably won't like SoA. Bye.
I really should do something about this signature.
Poison Dart, Dart Burst, Combat Training: Offensive, Foresight, Mind Link, Aura of Confusion, Venom Grenade, Channelgun, Slice, Longfang, Suppression, Arm Lash, Frenzy, Omega Maneuver, Wolf Spider Armor, Crab Spider Armor Upgrade, Bane Spider Armor Upgrade, Surveillance.
All new powers.
@Jay Leon Hart
Kerensky: this has nothing to do with underwear
Zwillinger: I put on my robe and wizard hat...
Synapse: I had to resist starting my last post off with "Yo dawg!"
Those powers are all exactly the same as existing powers apart from them having different graphics and doing different things though.
I really should do something about this signature.
Assuming that isn't sarcastic (I can never tell with you ) then every power is the same, they just do different things and have different animations. Of course, it probably was sarcastic and if that's the case - RUUFL!
@Jay Leon Hart
Kerensky: this has nothing to do with underwear
Zwillinger: I put on my robe and wizard hat...
Synapse: I had to resist starting my last post off with "Yo dawg!"
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Without me mathing it, the burst dps looks awfully close to stepping on a stalkers toes but burst damage I guess is essential to what Banes do.
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You need to do the math then. Bane (or Widow) burst damage isn't even close to what stalkers are capable of. Even a stalker who neglects to take AS will do more burst damage.
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I don't see a point to taking things too far on figures that could change, that I can't personally neither confirm nor deny but I have built characters to see what I can do with them and set them to the same settings on Mids.
I was thinking in terms of being without the AS. As it is in many large steam roll teams I can expect AS to be interrupted, it often would of been quicker and more efficient to of gone in and just attacked so lets say I just do that.
I will still regard a character as Assassin like when you can crit out of hide. For burst without the use of an AS strike your talking about the initial chain. Do a melee orientated Bane build and a average Stalker build (an average one, so not EM) on Mids and set the configuration to how you like (some use dam and chance) and set the builders power stats to do base damage.
Shatter, pulverise and bash looks good. Bash looks good compared to everything on a Ninja Blade but for Soaring Dragon and Golden Dragon, the last two powers and its the Banes level 1 power but you do respec it in at 25.
Anyway I went to Red Tomax, Shatter from hide at base was 102.63 per sec of cast time but a stalkers golden dragon fly from hide was 94.14 per sec of cast time. I'd need to do all attacks like that and add up the total of the attack chain.
I don't know if anyone wants to, but leave out the AS and see what the best first attack chain can look like for yourself on a Bane and on a Ninja Stalker. How much damage can you do with the first chain of melee attacks? It was all quick to do for me when I could use an attack chain planner but being my mums birthday I have too small a snippet of time to bother getting into it right now.
Do powers taken, damage, base only on power stats and set the scales the same, have all of the ninja blade attacks and have bash, mace beam, pulverise, shatter, venom grenade and crowd control and look at them bars. Banes even do better dam per unit of end.
Overall with the swings and roundabouts working out if something is balanced or not takes an enormous amount of time.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
In simple terms, stalker AT melee damage multiplyer = 0.9, crit for double, = 1.8. bane/widow AT multiplier = 1.0, crit for +67% = 1.67. After that, the longer the fight goes on for the stalker will start to fall behind in terms of damage. However if the bane spider stays in melee range they will start to fall behind in terms of being dead.
However, comparing the team performance with stalkers with SoA isn't realy legit: Stalkers are now accepted by the devs as underperforming in teams. Using AS, the stalker will do round about 4 times as much burst damage as an SoA.
You also can't include Venom Grenade on a bane without forcing redraw, and hence slowing your attack chain significantly.
I really should do something about this signature.
Venom Grenade: Redraw should be factored into the cast time. With or without redraw the cast time should be the same. Its a new set with which such a mistake shouldn't be made. Does it take longer than 1.87 secs with the redraw? For only solo : After working out the net effect of using it over 16 secs you may just makes some profit from its use back (I'd hope so, I mean why take it to break even?).
I won't speculate further on the rest of it, I think I'd sooner excel it which is really boring.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
This is my question.
Looking at the videos/info seems that this AT are stalkers/defenders/blasters (claws, assault riffle, and psi).
So what is new on them? do they got a "different mix"? (like claws + psi, or psi + supereflexes?) can any of you that already tested them givme some light on this? or, on the other side, is just what it seems: they are just old at with new cossies?