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If you want to play a hero in Paragon City, a basic knowledge of the city history is generally going to be presumed by most people. Things like the citizen crime fighting act should be known to ALL, as it's the very basis of your hero license.
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I don't recall there is an exam about canon before you can start playing.
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Show me where I said anything about HAVING to know it before you start playing. I said a basic knowledge is generally going to be presumed by most people. Please read more carefully.
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Same for missions. I am using missions my own way. I don't care about the briefing.
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Just out of curiousity... If you dislike the game setting so much that you just ignore it, why do you play?
As for the badges; a large number of them are tied to game story. You would only HAVE said badge if you'd completed certain story arcs or task forces, so should be familiar with the part of the game story connected to them... That means that I can safely refer to said stories ICly, and have a reasonable expectation that you would understand what I was on about.
If you want to ignore that part of the story, that's perfectly fine by me. But it's up to you to communicate that to other players or the majority WILL assume you know and accept it.
Note: The word "you" is used here in its generic sense, and not the personal.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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But then what do you do if a different person comes along with contradicting story bits about Rikti, but which equally serves a story purpose and is done in a well thought out manner?
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If it's done in a well thought manner, i'll look for a way to conciliate his vision to mine.
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Do you accept both and therefore break your own immersion
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Accepting others ideas and trying to find ways to mix them with mines isn't breaking my immersion.
I don't think I ever rejected anyone idea that was conflicting at first with one of my views.
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Far easier to stick to the official canon. At least then you know where things stand.
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Save there isn't much info about what is canon anyway and all arguments about it are coming from the lack of detailed informations, never from the Paragon City Gazeeter.
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But then what do you do if a different person comes along with contradicting story bits about Rikti, but which equally serves a story purpose and is done in a well thought out manner?
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If it's done in a well thought manner, i'll look for a way to conciliate his vision to mine.
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That's not quite what I asked. It's easy enough to reconcile one persons view with your own. I asked what do you do when you have TWO (or more even), totally conflicting views, in addition to your own. At some point, you can't continue to add other views together because they conflict too much.
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Far easier to stick to the official canon. At least then you know where things stand.
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Save there isn't much info about what is canon anyway and all arguments about it are coming from the lack of detailed informations, never from the Paragon City Gazeeter.
[/ QUOTE ]
There is PLENTY of information on huge areas of the game where fudging just isn't necessary. True, the info on Kheldian backstory is limited; but for most of the other villain organisations in the game, there is masses of info.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
FFM :You never said someone HAVE to know the setting before playing...
Now show me where I said I DISLIKE the setting.
And even...
Why would I play if I disliked the setting ?
Obviously because it's a nice game about super heroes ? It's not as if I had other options anyway.
You may enjoy the game because you like both the gameplay and the setting, you might accept it's not the general rule for everyone.
About badges, it's only you who is assuming people "should be familiar with the part of the game story connected to them".
Apparently, on the opposite of your views, I am never assuming a player I don't know has the slightest knowledge about the setting. He can even have a tons of badges, it doesn't mean he found the stories interesting, or have read them.
[ QUOTE ]
If you want to ignore that part of the story, that's perfectly fine by me. But it's up to you to communicate that to other players or the majority WILL assume you know and accept it.
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Save it's only your way to assume people badges and knowledge are connected.
Actually, about majority, you're the only person I know from those boards who claim assuming setting knowledge is connected to badges collection.
Not saying you're alone but I'm not sure about the "majority" there.
Since you're just assuming I should know things connected to badges, why not you assuming I don't know instead ?
Wouldn't it be simplier that you stop looking at others badges collection to determine what their character should IC'ly know ?
Just talking and discovering it through interaction is perfectly fine to me.
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I don't recall there is an exam about canon before you can start playing.
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There isn't, and no expects there to be one. But many of us are interested in RPing within a consistent game-world. Not one that changes every time someone comes up with an idea and doesn't like that the previously accepted knowledge of the way the world works doesn't let them. The world of CoH has certain features, and they exist for a reason. The story of the world progresses as a result of that history and events that people (and the devs) put into play.
By ignoring the events of the world and the features of the world, we end up with a situation that practically begs for god-modding to take place. I RP for the immersion in a shared game-world. I know that there are certain features of this game-world - they're the canon - and because I'm RPing in this world, with this history, is it unreasonable of me to hope that other people want to RP in the world we've been given, too? A world where the rikti have invaded. A world where Kheldian's can't bond with unwilling hosts. A world where Nemesis is a serious matter of concern for people that know (some of) the truth. If someone wants to break canon, that's fine if they can explain it. They don't even have to explain it to me, or anyone else. If the explanation that they have fits within (or around) canon, then we have on our hands a mystery and that is the stuff of which good RP can stem. But if the game world doesn't matter, and the history doesn't matter, and the rules by which the CoH universe work don't matter, one wonders what the point of RPing in CoH is, when you (general you, not anyone specific) can create your own world and RP in it somewhere else?
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise 
; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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That's not quite what I asked. It's easy enough to reconcile one persons view with your own. I asked what do you do when you have TWO (or more even), totally conflicting views, in addition to your own. At some point, you can't continue to add other views together because they conflict too much.
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To be sincere, I have yet to end in a situation where views about the game world cannot be conciliated.
So I simply don't share your views about the impossibility to mix ideas.
If you have as a basis a well thought idea and a conciliating player, how can you fail ?
Without wanting to wade into the whole Kheld debate (which is interesting given that Im only 5 levels off trying them for the first time) Id say the key phrase in the prior debate is shared ground. Roleplay is very rarely a solitary activity and any group of people requires a consensus of what actions/reactions are acceptable to them. Most of the debates Ive ever encountered in the RP community (including those that descended into gratuitous mud slinging) tend to revolve around what one group of people accepts and another rejects. Ive watched OOC arguments in game about what people can and cannot do. What one group of people accepts as good RP, another group may consider hideous god-modding of the 13th degree and they must be destroyed! I note of course, that a lot of these do tend to be around what powers people possess etc (dont you just love demi-gods?)
Canon, and I agree that it can often be patchy and sparse, is a standard. Note I say a standard, not the standard and for someone coming from just playing the game to roleplaying within it, it would be the one that they are most familiar with. If a group/person chooses to reject a lot of the story arcs, missions etc, you can do that but it will likely make things difficult IC if they interact with someone who does accept them. Likewise if a person who does accept them encounters someone who doesnt. But as long as the company that you keep is on the same page, that may not matter too much. That said, I don think that theres a huge amount of canon that is necessary to RP within the game. I certainly did not know that much before I began.
To some degree, we all accept/reject canon every day. How many times now has Statesman been rescued? How often have we all kicked Frostfire across the Hollows? When my fifth alt uncovers the shocking truth about the Rikti, do I have to still act surprised? Of course not, we somehow adapt these things into our experience and roll with it. Which is a good thing, I think.
Smeester, Regarding entering RP, I dont think that much knowledge is necessary. If anything, sometimes too much knowledge is detrimental, especially if you end up RPing with someone who rejects most of it. A basic knowledge is all thats needed and Id say a quick study of the timeline on the Wiki along with the background to the hero licence, Nemesis, the Rikti invasion and the Freedom Phalanx is enough to bluff your way through. Dont let the weight of information or other roleplayers put you off. If you really feel intimidated, you can always do what I did and start roleplaying with a character who is a bit innocent and naïve and learns as they progress. Use the supposed restrictions on information being linked to security level to aid you. But whatever you do, dont give up.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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To be sincere, I have yet to end in a situation where views about the game world cannot be conciliated.
So I simply don't share your views about the impossibility to mix ideas.
If you have as a basis a well thought idea and a conciliating player, how can you fail ?
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An example:
Game canon says Rikti are mutated humans from another dimension.
Player A says Rikti are actual alien invaders from another galaxy; and not humans
Player B says Rikti are from the far future and are evolved humans.
Player C says Rikti don't exist in the game.
All players present well reasoned arguments for their views.
How do you reconcile such contradicting views to your OWN view of what Rikti are?
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Alright. Let's take an example, then. One well-known Unionverse character was a powerful psychic. He read thoughts without thinking. In fact he was unable to not read thoughts. I create a normal human character as a plot device, no psychic defences whatsoever, and want to run a plot. My normal human cannot stop the character reading his thoughts, but if his thoughts become known to anyone else, the plot gets ruined, and for reasons of the plot, he must be a normal human with no mental defences.
Assume both players are reasonable, but that the player of the psychic will insist that because of his character's flaw (being unable to avoid reading thoughts), there is no way he will not read the thoughts of a normal person, and, because of a plot requirement, the normal character must have no psychic or mental defences or way to stop his thoughts being read.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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many of us are interested in RPing within a consistent game-world. Not one that changes every time someone comes up with an idea and doesn't like that the previously accepted knowledge of the way the world works doesn't let them. The world of CoH has certain features, and they exist for a reason. The story of the world progresses as a result of that history and events that people (and the devs) put into play.
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Not feeling bound to established canon doesn't mean someone is going to come with a funky idea every day that is mandatorily conflicting with everyone else views, you know.
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By ignoring the events of the world and the features of the world, we end up with a situation that practically begs for god-modding to take place.
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Yes. Save "god-moding" problems are rare around me. I can, possibly, see one and I'm not sure everyone in the gaming group I play with would agree on it.
God-moding is a different beast than canon respect or not.
It is more about player responsability, abuse and personnal ego.
You can perfectly ignore bits of the canon, create even conflicting elements, without falling into god-mode and earth-shaking conclusions.
Mind you, not following the canon source also mean to me I accept others are following it.
So I generally put a precautional, conditionnal and subjective conclusion on my views.
So if I have to express them "publicly", there are enough escape routes in them to allow someone else to disagree with them, without forcing me to either back them up at all cost, either abandon them.
On the other hand, to be sincere, I had and have much much MUCH more trouble with people "following canon" than people who are occasionnaly diverting from it.
So while not respecting it should logically trigger an mess and anarchic, inconsistent world, me and people I play with are smoothly accomodating our views, always managing to allow breathing room for others views.
I still have to find the breathing room from people following canon. I might find it one day.
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Am example:
Game canon says Rikti are mutated humans from another dimension.
Player A says Rikti are actual alien invaders from another galaxy; and not humans
Player B says Rikti are from the far future and are evolved humans.
Player C says Rikti don't exist in the game.
All players present well reasoned arguments for their views.
How do you reconcile such contradicting views to your OWN view of what Rikti are?
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You might have missed the part when I said "well thought ideas" and "conciliating player".
If those conditions are existing, I doubt your exercice would stay the same for long and stances will evolve.
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Am example:
Game canon says Rikti are mutated humans from another dimension.
Player A says Rikti are actual alien invaders from another galaxy; and not humans
Player B says Rikti are from the far future and are evolved humans.
Player C says Rikti don't exist in the game.
All players present well reasoned arguments for their views.
How do you reconcile such contradicting views to your OWN view of what Rikti are?
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You might have missed the part when I said "well thought ideas" and "conciliating player".
If those conditions are existing, I doubt your exercice would stay the same for long and stances will evolve.
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So, you agree then that it's not always possible to reconcile conflicting views?
Personally, given such a situation, I think the safest option is to always go with the canon.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
[ QUOTE ]
Not feeling bound to established canon doesn't mean someone is going to come with a funky idea every day that is mandatorily conflicting with everyone else views, you know.
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Never said it was. So, what do you do when someone does come up with a funky idea that is mandatorily contradictory to everyone else's view?
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Mind you, not following the canon source also mean to me I accept others are following it.
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Actually, no it doesn't. It means that you do not accept the canon as existing, and therefore you hold a contradictory viewpoint to people that do follow it. I think that Rikti are extra-dimensional invaders. You don't agree, since you ignore the canon that says so. Our points of view are contradictory. If you were to say that your character doesn't believe canon, I could understand your point, but since you don't consider it to exist for the game you are playing, you are shutting yourself off from RPing with anyone who does follow it.
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So I generally put a precautional, conditionnal and subjective conclusion on my views.
So if I have to express them "publicly", there are enough escape routes in them to allow someone else to disagree with them, without forcing me to either back them up at all cost, either abandon them.
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Your views or your characters' views? If it's your characters, then I cannot see a problem - lots of people in the real world believe things that are false, and I have nothing against them. But if my character says 'The sky is blue' and I back that up with 'because canon says so' and you say OOC 'no, the sky is actually pink, and I believe that because I ignore canon and I want to play in a world with a pink sky', what are we left with but anarchy?
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On the other hand, to be sincere, I had and have much much MUCH more trouble with people "following canon" than people who are occasionnaly diverting from it.
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Probably because people like consistency. Humans are pattern-seeking machines. It is in our nature to see patterns and classify events/objects according to the patterns we see. I'm not exactly a stickler for canon - though there are plenty of people out there who are - but my point is that the game-world we are trying to share through RP says 'the sky is blue' and someone who says 'actually, in the game I'm playing it's pink' is separating themselves from the world.
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So while not respecting it should logically trigger an mess and anarchic, inconsistent world, me and people I play with are smoothly accomodating our views, always managing to allow breathing room for others views.
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Couldn't respect you more for managing this. It's a shame that you and the people you play with will NEVER be able to find common ground with those of us who think the sky is blue.
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I still have to find the breathing room from people following canon. I might find it one day.
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Ah. So, because we want to play in the world that the devs have given us we are restricting you in some way?
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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So, you agree then that it's not always possible to reconcile conflicting views?
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Well, if you are using examples that are out of the frame of cooperation I've set, yes, things can't always be conciled.
Asking how you can concile views of people who refuse to concile can't really have many answers.
But people who refuse to concile are not exactly the ones I'm mixing ideas with.
Pretty much like I wouldn't stand for long beside an intrusive god-moder.
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But people who refuse to concile are not exactly the ones I'm mixing ideas with.
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And I don't dispute that either. I'm glad for you that you can game with people willing to adjust their game to reconcile with others. Unfortunately, not everyone is that accomodating. I've come across a fair number of people who won't budge from their odd view of the game world, and it's forced me to retcon several times because of it. In each case, they were people who ignored the canon and tried to force their ideas on others.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
[ QUOTE ]
Well, if you are using examples that are out of the frame of cooperation I've set, yes, things can't always be conciled.
[/ QUOTE ]
To be fair his examples didn't seem to be like that.
Yes they are clearly contradictory, because he's making a point. But it is entirely plausible that 4 good, friendly, happy RP'ers could each, individually have those views for their characters. Along with well thought out backgrounds that explains their views.
Is sticking to their characters story, when they've worked hard to make it fit, god-modding or otherwise an undesirable attribute. No.
Are their stories reconcilable, even with friendly, willing people. Still no.
The only way there can be reconciliation is if most of the people present accept their beliefs are probably wrong, whether they've been 'misled', 'tricked' or just 'misunderstood'. Hardly a great solution.
However, if these 4 great people had just followed canon in the first place - they could have spent that time enjoying some RP rather than deciding how to limit damage done to their characters backstory.
EDIT : Seen 'Retcon' a couple of times now... it means?
Thanks, Smeester. Wonderful post.
Retcon means 'Retroactive Continuity'. It's a term used when you go back and say "okay, events didn't happen that way, they happened this way."
Most RPers HATE retcons.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
[ QUOTE ]
EDIT : Seen 'Retcon' a couple of times now... it means?
[/ QUOTE ]
Basically it means you have to erase some events from your characters IC life, making it as if they didn't happen to prevent damaging your character. The worst one I've had to do happened a long time ago, and involved another character putting mine through such traumatic events that she'd have killed herself to get away from the mental torment. As I didn't want that, but dislike breaching ICA=ICC, I had no choice but to retcon; especially as the guy responsible did it as he was leaving the game, purely for kicks...
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, no it doesn't. It means that you do not accept the canon as existing, and therefore you hold a contradictory viewpoint to people that do follow it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, I think all is said.
Discussion closed for me.
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Actually, no it doesn't. It means that you do not accept the canon as existing, and therefore you hold a contradictory viewpoint to people that do follow it.
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Ok, I think all is said.
Discussion closed for me.
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Did I cause offence? If so, I certainly didn't intend to.
What I would like to see is a situation where all the RPers in CoH agree on a few fundamental things - I don't want to dictate what those things are, but I have never, and never intend to, RPd in a world-setting where the backstory is ignored.
To allow you to see my perspective (hopefully) a little clearer, I am aware that there are huge holes in the canon. Holes you can drive an aircraft carrier through. It is in those holes that we players create our own options. We are not ignoring the canon that exists, but working our characters around the options that have been presented to us, and in the process using options that are not explicitly denied to us by the world-setting. I don't think I've ever come across a character that flat-out contradict canon. I've seen characters that utilise the gaps to create interesting backstory, but not one that ignores it completely.
I like to see interesting characters. I like to see inventive characters. I adore a well thought-out backstory. But I would have a problem with someone who comes up to me and says "My character is married to Sister Psyche", and ignores that canon says she is married to Manticore, even if the character has the most brilliant backstory and reasoning in the world. It may be a blinkered perspective on my part, but I cannot conceive of roleplaying in the CoH universe and being willing to flat-out ignore things like that.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
oh you have to be joking..
just did a huge post for this and then it didnt work.. so not wasting my time doing that again
Yeah, the forums have been a bit spatzy lately. I always Ctrl+A then Ctrl+C before posting just to make sure.
[ QUOTE ]
An example:
Game canon says Rikti are mutated humans from another dimension.
Player A says Rikti are actual alien invaders from another galaxy; and not humans
Player B says Rikti are from the far future and are evolved humans.
Player C says Rikti don't exist in the game.
How do you reconcile such contradicting views to your OWN view of what Rikti are?
[/ QUOTE ]
Player C is obviously Wrong.
Player A and B are roleplaying characters without Omega level clearence or whatever Dark Watcher needs before he tells you the truth.
It's reasonable to assume said players A and B haven't discovered the truth after all there are liekly to be all sorts of theoryies about the Rikti floating around the general populas.
For example Big Foot, people belive its fake, the missing link, a form of yeti, an alien etc
Without in the real world being contacted by some secret organisation and given the truth any of the theorys could be true.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
what if it wasn't an opinion on the rikti, and these people claimed that it was the truth.... such as a hero or villain from another planet who was attacked by the rikti as cut through the galaxy on their way to attack earth?
because... you know... i seen that in a bio before.....
[ QUOTE ]
If you want to play a hero in Paragon City, a basic knowledge of the city history is generally going to be presumed by most people. Things like the citizen crime fighting act should be known to ALL, as it's the very basis of your hero license.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't recall there is an exam about canon before you can start playing.
[ QUOTE ]
Other canon I tend to treat as badge related. If a person has badge A, then I expect them to know the canon related to badge A; just like if a person is playing epic AT B, I expect them to be familiar with the basic canon related to epic AT B. If they choose to ignore said canon, but fail to communication that to players X, Y and Z; then they only have themselves to blame when their character gets treated as a nut.
[/ QUOTE ]
Because you simply assume that badges are necessarily tied to knowledge.
Breaking news : I don't collect badges but, now and then, sometimes just while moving, I get one. Exploration ones for example are tied to history.
Does it mean I care about the whys ? No.
It's only your assumption that I should pay attention to the whys of the badges.
Same for missions. I am using missions my own way. I don't care about the briefing. I am using the map as a physical setting and the mobs as physical enemies. But the story behind is mine.
Save... sometimes, because I don't have a mission generator at will, I pick what I can. And sometimes completing the mission gives you a badge.
And you are going to assume I was an interest in the mission story ? It wasn't my goal at all.
Now you are going to start treating my characters as nuts just because I have that or that badge even if I wasn't interested in getting it ?
You are actually assuming the way I should play ???
[ QUOTE ]
Canon forms the very basis of the world we play in; and ignoring it is a terribly short sighted thing to do. Work around it sure; as long as you let people know, but IGNORING it? Not a good idea, IMO.
[/ QUOTE ]
In your opinion, exactly. It's your gaming style.