[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Consider a Fire tanker tankng Lord Recluse. *Whump* two-shot, Faceplanted. With Support? *Whump* (Heal) *Whump* (Heal) *Whump* (Heal) *Enddrain* *Toggledropped* *Whump* *Faceplanted*. The Fire Tanker can tank him, but not without a heck of a lot of outside buffs.
[/ QUOTE ]I assume you're talking about one without tough.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've seen one with tough and sonic bubbles combined still get two-shot when they were endurance drained and their toggles + knockback protection dropped. It was a combination of the damage (tough doesn't help against the energy component) and the drain (toggle dropping) that killed them.
On that occasion they simply *needed* some form of endurance drain protection in order to properly tank LR, and there was none available on the team. On repeated attempts the tanker was drained and then either knockbacked into the tower team and/or two-shot.
Now an INV would have managed to tank him for short periods of time (Unstoppable) and possibly even an Ice Tanker would have had a chance with clever use of Hibernate and a Breakfree or two. A Stone Tanker in Granite, naturally, wouldn't have blinked... but Fire tankers don't have the self-maximum-HP boost to fall back on, let alone a method of compensating for endurance drain.
A Fire Tanker with Tough, plus FF Bubbles/O2 Boost/etc? Sure, it'll have a fighting chance... but the drain will kill them otherwise. And relying on always having End Drain protection available is "inflexible"... 
I've done it several times with a fire tank tanking recluse, with no significant buffs (just one empath for support, usually. Maybe ID from a kin). On the other hand, I'd never want to do it with an ice tank tanking reclues.
How'd you overcome the endurance drain? RA and "Adrenalin Boost"?
Last time I did it, his endurance drain easily kept pace with that of a "Sapper".
With a Kin I can understand... Knockback protection and Smashing/Energy Resists from ID, plus SB... 
Last I checked it was certainly possible with an Ice tanker, but very hard. Hibernate and Hoarfrost are about all they're good for in there. Even without Hoarfrost, Fire wins due to the resists... but they only apply if the Fire Tanker can keep their toggles running. Will be interesting to see how Willpower fairs at it.
[ QUOTE ]
The bit I find most interesting is that distance is factored in when calulating threat. A Tanker taunting from melee range will generate slightly more aggro than an identical Tanker taunting from 50 feet away.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, i know this is old now but doesnt that very factor say that we HAVE been operating on a wrong footing?
Loads of times I taunt from a distance then assume the effect has done its job. But in fact, under certain circumstances it actually hasnt, because its distance related.
Did i recently read some where that in fact there are instances where we wouldnt steal the aggro from, say a Scrapper, despite the fact we actually have been thinking we had? Or have I got it wrong?
Do i need to change the way i approach taunt or can i carry on as before?
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
[ QUOTE ]
Do i need to change the way i approach taunt or can i carry on as before?
[/ QUOTE ]
Realistically, unless a Scrapper is attacking full pelt, AND using taunt/taunt aura on a mob, you'll have aggro as-normal just by using taunt at range.
The only thing I can think of offhand is an INV Scrapper with invincibility running, attacking full pelt. Initially you'll have aggro, but over a longish period of time you may lose it to the Scrapper unless you're also attacking and/or have the mob in a taunt aura.
Castle said that heavy attacks are worth about 6000 "threat units" for a Scrapper, and Scrapper Taunt is about 270,000,000. Completely different orders of magnitude... but Scrapper taunt's 270,000,000 versus Tanker taunt's 360,000,000 could in theory be bridged if you add in enough high-damage Scrapper attacks and/or the Tanker's threat level is reduced from using taunt at long-range. It'll also get much closer if the Scrapper's taunt is slotted for duration (which increases threat) and the Tanker's taunt isn't.
[ QUOTE ]
How'd you overcome the endurance drain? RA and "Adrenalin Boost"?
Last time I did it, his endurance drain easily kept pace with that of a "Sapper".
[/ QUOTE ]Didn't see end being an issue, then again I was never the tank myself. Also, the tank was usually perma-AB'd, so that would fix it I guess.
But even if it were an issue, why would invul or ice be any better off?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How'd you overcome the endurance drain? RA and "Adrenalin Boost"?
Last time I did it, his endurance drain easily kept pace with that of a "Sapper".
[/ QUOTE ]Didn't see end being an issue, then again I was never the tank myself. Also, the tank was usually perma-AB'd, so that would fix it I guess.
But even if it were an issue, why would invul or ice be any better off?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because the Fire tank loses all their resistance and mez protection when they get toggle dropped via being drained to zero endurance.
An INV keeps their resistance/protection for the duration of unstoppable, and an Ice tanker can use Hibernate to become unhittable right after a drain (although doing so properly whilst fighting LR is likely to be VERY difficult). They both also get a Max +HP power, which stays in effect after being toggle-dropped.
And yeah, Controller AB is around a +1000% Endurance Recovery Boost even unslotted. If it can bypass all the -recovery from a Blaster's Nuke, I'd bet it can bypass the -recovery from LR's endurance drain... 
I dont think our invs use unstopable for the fights personally. I could say for sure without asking though. The firetank didn't really do a worse job it was just more odge of your seat. When he died he could grab the agro back straight away with his res anyway. Just on Master Of,.,.... runs fire wont be so favourable cause that wont be a good trait
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
[ QUOTE ]
I dont think our invs use unstopable for the fights personally.
[/ QUOTE ]They didn't. Unstop is far too risky due to the crash.
Besides, recluse mainly deals S/L, the energy part is fairly minor AFAIK.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How'd you overcome the endurance drain? RA and "Adrenalin Boost"?
Last time I did it, his endurance drain easily kept pace with that of a "Sapper".
[/ QUOTE ]Didn't see end being an issue, then again I was never the tank myself. Also, the tank was usually perma-AB'd, so that would fix it I guess.
But even if it were an issue, why would invul or ice be any better off?
[/ QUOTE ]
In fact we've done STF several times with fire tanks and it wasn't always the same tank, plus we had many different team compositions and never seen any endurance issues on any of them.-
Well either you guys have been very lucky with your team composition, or the Fire Tanker I had the last few times I attempted it was just [censored]. I wouldn't put it past him just being [censored]... 
On the Unstoppable issue, whilst the crash is risky, at least using Unstoppable allows three minutes of very high survivability. If you were trying it with a team that couldn't otherwise cope with tanking LR normally, that three minutes could be long enough to give them enough time to take out a generator. Hospital, rinse and repeat.
[ QUOTE ]
On the Unstoppable issue, whilst the crash is risky, at least using Unstoppable allows three minutes of very high survivability. If you were trying it with a team that couldn't otherwise cope with tanking LR normally, that three minutes could be long enough to give them enough time to take out a generator. Hospital, rinse and repeat.
[/ QUOTE ]An invul with tough will be at the S/L cap without unstop though. So it's not that large of a boost, unless LR's energy damage is much higher than I think it is.
[ QUOTE ]
Well either you guys have been very lucky with your team composition, or the Fire Tanker I had the last few times I attempted it was just [censored]. I wouldn't put it past him just being [censored]...
[/ QUOTE ]
They censoring the word inexperienced?
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I had a mad hangover this morning and do not wish to further participate in long posts whereby we further and further mistake each others meanings and intentions.
I need to put myself right on this:
[ QUOTE ]
You see the teams that get Master of "" badges? The tanker takes the pity spot. 1 tank 3 def and 4 controllers getting the badge is not an achievement especially with your suggested build above.
[/ QUOTE ]
This was a fictitious statement. An untrue statement. Getting the badge is always an achievement. Just because you did it in a team such as above doesn't mean you bottled out on a more diverse team. It can mean you are Tanker simply with 7 friends who have defenders or controllers for badge toons. I also know defenders and controllers are good but not always that good.
The game needs to be about community and not elitism. I am not going to care if I never get the badge but I am still gonna avoid teams like that as well.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On the Unstoppable issue, whilst the crash is risky, at least using Unstoppable allows three minutes of very high survivability. If you were trying it with a team that couldn't otherwise cope with tanking LR normally, that three minutes could be long enough to give them enough time to take out a generator. Hospital, rinse and repeat.
[/ QUOTE ]An invul with tough will be at the S/L cap without unstop though. So it's not that large of a boost, unless LR's energy damage is much higher than I think it is.
[/ QUOTE ]
Firstly, LR does more than just Smashing/Lethal Damage. My Sonic Defender has over 70% S/L resists... LR can one-shot my Sonic Defender very easily just with a PbAoE (brings me down to 1HP from full with one hit). His single-target melee damage is primarily lethal, his ranged single target damage is primarily energy (about 3000 points of it with one Blast IIRC).
Secondly, the point of Unstoppable in that "bad team" scenario is primarily to stop the INV being toggle-dropped and subsequently killed by the Endurance Drain. If the tanker is getting drained, it's irrelevant what resists they have unless they have the endurance to keep their toggles up (or have clicky-based damage resistance).
I'm not convinced that the endurance drain is as mild a concern as you guys seem to think it is, because I've seen it drain tankers in one shot (about 5 seconds). Perhaps you're able to always get him into melee-attack-only mode more quickly than the STF tankers I've been with... from what I can tell it's a ranged ability like a Sapper's rifle.
By all means, next time you're doing a STF watch and see how much blue that attack takes off without endurance drain protection on the tanker. Without the towers buffing him, he's probably about the same as listed here. Note the Channelgun, 37.5 % -End, 4 second recharge. "Suppression" is what kills my Defender so quickly. When playing him I stay just inside the 25 Feet Radius of Sonic Dispersion, so I'm well outside the 10 foot radius of "Spider Strike".
The ranged attack is probably the problem. Whenever we have a tank tanking LR, they're always in melee.
He has almost taken my entire end bar in one shot on many an occasion. In fact I can tell you that my practised brawler removed the remainder of my bar, detoggled me and that was it lights out. Curses Practised Brawler!
The answers to your problems I already know.
In telling you I just take away all your fun in working things out.
Sorry.
I think everyone is capable of making friends, communicating, allowing mistakes to be made, getting over them and aiming to do better next time.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
The answers to your problems I already know.
In telling you I just take away all your fun in working things out.
Sorry.
[/ QUOTE ]
Easy, get a granite
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The answers to your problems I already know.
In telling you I just take away all your fun in working things out.
Sorry.
[/ QUOTE ]
Easy, get a granite
[/ QUOTE ]
*kicks the easy life down the hole*
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The answers to your problems I already know.
In telling you I just take away all your fun in working things out.
Sorry.
[/ QUOTE ]
Easy, get a granite
[/ QUOTE ]
*kicks the easy life down the hole*
[/ QUOTE ]
Not sure a Granite would be the easy life for me now, have gotten so used to having a mobile tank on the rest of the TF that a granite in the final mission might not compensate for that. Someday I should do the TF with a granite just to see how the rest of the missions go and if it could get into the rest of the mobs fast enough to match my defender or whether I could keep the granites pace and concentration at the same time. I like to be second into the mobs and I fear I could wind up first too often
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
What sort of defender are you Cynic?
I remember when the STF first came up. People came up with their idea of desire-able team make ups saying you'd need this and want that power-set inclusive of temp powers. Sure some sets make desire-able farming toons but for this I'd hope to think people might be able to work their way through it with any given set.
Given that no one can play 8 characters at once to have a whole team give a desired dynamic failing it isn't a bad thing but I would suggest nominating a leader and keeping exactly to their plan. If their plan don't work and they come up with nothing next time you do it; nominate another but at least eventually lots of ideas get tossed about over time by different people; and you don't keep being with people who always do something incredibly random and sometimes completely stupid.
I went on one STF as Katalina, who had a leader who never asked for anyones ideas and came up with his own stupid ideas and plan A, plan B and plan C were all technically the same plan. Not that it mattered, because at those stop and think moments someone would act to fire off a completely new plan that no one knew about.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
What sort of defender are you Cynic?
[/ QUOTE ]Rad/Rad
Rad/Rad/Elec (the elecs important damnit)
We had a sketchy plan on our first run, second run used our plan Bs then used a combination of them after.
My Defender's the only hero 50 I still play actively I dont feel the call on my others unless I want to earn a bit of inf with my scrapper
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
An update from Castle on why an Inv scrapper taunt aura seems to trump so many tanker taunts:
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's something interesting that's happening to the taunt in Invincibility now in issue 11
I did send in a PM to Castle regarding this. Let's hope this is a bug.
[/ QUOTE ]
And this is the post which finally let me find what changed between I10 and I11 as for as Scrapper Invincibility went. Found it, fixed it. It'll make it's way live in with the next full build we do.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's broken.
[ QUOTE ]
Consider a Fire tanker tankng Lord Recluse. *Whump* two-shot, Faceplanted. With Support? *Whump* (Heal) *Whump* (Heal) *Whump* (Heal) *Enddrain* *Toggledropped* *Whump* *Faceplanted*. The Fire Tanker can tank him, but not without a heck of a lot of outside buffs.
[/ QUOTE ]I assume you're talking about one without tough.