I must say that I was quite amused when I read this yesterday. The actual threat calculation system seems to be a lot more interesting than the system we thought we would have.
This explains why it is nigh impossible to steal aggro from an ice tanker and should once and for all answer the question if a tank who plays agressively and has a taunt aura needs Taunt.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
I must say that I was quite amused when I read this yesterday. The actual threat calculation system seems to be a lot more interesting than the system we thought we would have.
This explains why it is nigh impossible to steal aggro from an ice tanker and should once and for all answer the question if a tank who plays agressively and has a taunt aura needs Taunt.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
Nah, I had a read through that yesterday evening.
Basically it's a mechanics technicality only, but Kudos to Castle and GW for going through it all.
In practice, threat multipliers are so high on Taunt that a Tanker will pull aggro off virtually everything. However since aggro builds up over time and each time taunt is applied it is overwritten rather than stacked, this does explain why on the old-style Hami raids a Taunting tanker could eventually lose aggro to all the people spamming their powers on Hami. "Eventually" being the operative word here.
The bit I find most interesting is that distance is factored in when calulating threat. A Tanker taunting from melee range will generate slightly more aggro than an identical Tanker taunting from 50 feet away.
I haven't had problems taunting at range with a scrapper with a taunt aura but then I slot taunt.
And no we haven't all been thinking we have been doing something when we have not. You don't need to know the maths to know what your doing as observation alone helps. Those that thought stealth powers effect Tanker aggro were right, end of story, how they knew doesn't matter. Neptune can be found by either maths or a telescope. Observation is the easier option and some may of failed on that.
People who play tankers have different mindsets. This new info is barely going to change a thing for those who have add taunt durations etc because they felt that they needed them and for those that understood that if a scrapper taunted aggro would go elsewhere and warned them not to. For many of the observant Tankers they can only play as normal even keeping aggro off of entire teams as normal and as far as totally preventing some AVs from laying a single attack on a team mate.
Furthermore those with taunt with one base slot might want to rethink their game as they do have their limits.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I knew my Brute was holding agro from a taunting stone brute by something other than magical means. I must just have done so much more damage that my threat rating was higher. Which makes sense to me at least
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
[ QUOTE ]
I knew my Brute was holding agro from a taunting stone brute by something other than magical means. I must just have done so much more damage that my threat rating was higher. Which makes sense to me at least
[/ QUOTE ]
A brute attacking an AV and taunting will stack higher taunt durations the AoEs upon them will be on all those around them. Fortunately in the CoV game whose in Melee? MM pets maybe, another Brute, a well def'd stalker and besides all that there is an abundance in shields usually. CoV has way less use for a Tanker AT.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore those with taunt with one base slot might want to rethink their game as they do have their limits.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not that much. Castle said that slotting for taunt duration does affect the threat level, but that the magnitude of taunt effects is pretty irrelevant.
Furthermore, in practice it doesn't make much difference: my DA Scrapper can hold aggro over a Gauntlet-using tanker on an AV by using Scrapper Taunt (one taunt duration) plus his normal attack chain. My INV Tanker has Taunt two-slotted (one duration, one recharge) and can hold aggro over virtually anything, including other Tankers, multiple Brutes, and Taunt-using Scrappers.
The most important thing to realise is that since we now know taunt (the effect) to be effectively a threat multiplier not an on-or-off status effect, we know that closing to melee range and using BOTH your damaging attacks AND Taunt will lock aggro much more solidly than just using Taunt from range.
I'm also unsure whether effects such as Rage or Build Up enter into Taunt (the power)'s threat-equation... one of Castle's examples features slotting and and suggests that damage buffs make a substantial difference to the part of the threat calculation that's attack-based. This may or may not apply to "Taunt" itself, but it certainly applies to "Gauntlet" attacks.
It occurs to me that one good (if rather random) way to increase the threat of your taunt could be to slot it with the new chance of damage proc.
I really should do something about this signature.
That's true... 
I'm not sure how the auras work either. I suspect that they're actually slightly more unbalanced in terms of threat multiplication than we'd otherwise believe.
Consider Invincibility or Chilling Embrace - ever since the Invincibility 'taunt buff' patch, they're meant to be about equal at holding aggro. OK, that's fine... but consider Firey Aura and Mudpots. They have the same taunt effects, but they also do damage which presumably gets multiplied. Ice gets icicles to counter this, but INV gets nothing. Buffs are clearly in order here --> "buff INV pls!!" 
Stick a damage proc in INV!
I really should do something about this signature.
I've just realised something. I recently respeced Frosty into Icicles (in addition to CE), and I seem to keep the aggro longer when I activate hibernate now.
I really should do something about this signature.
[ QUOTE ]
Consider Invincibility or Chilling Embrace - ever since the Invincibility 'taunt buff' patch, they're meant to be about equal at holding aggro. OK, that's fine... but consider Firey Aura and Mudpots. They have the same taunt effects, but they also do damage which presumably gets multiplied. Ice gets icicles to counter this, but INV gets nothing. Buffs are clearly in order here --> "buff INV pls!!"
[/ QUOTE ]CE and Inv tick faster though.
CE is a debuff though, and debuffs presuambly generate threat like damage does. RttC also has a debuff component. INV only taunts though.
I really should do something about this signature.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Consider Invincibility or Chilling Embrace - ever since the Invincibility 'taunt buff' patch, they're meant to be about equal at holding aggro. OK, that's fine... but consider Firey Aura and Mudpots. They have the same taunt effects, but they also do damage which presumably gets multiplied. Ice gets icicles to counter this, but INV gets nothing. Buffs are clearly in order here --> "buff INV pls!!"
[/ QUOTE ]CE and Inv tick faster though.
[/ QUOTE ]
The damage component certainly ticks slower (once every 2 seconds for most Damage Auras IIRC). Not sure about the taunt effects, it's quite possible that they're going at the same rate across all auras now.
Mudpots already has a split between the damage and debuff components (damage isn't autohit, debuff is). This is why I'm not really sure if the threat multiplier is working off the damage in auras at the moment, it's possible it's only tied into some kind of "taunt debuff" a-la Taunt (the power).
Tick rate is fairly irrelevant, since it's now official that damageless Taunt effects overwrite each other rather than stack (whereas Threat multipliers on damage stack) the damage-aura-taunt-auras look much better. Damageless taunt auras could reapply taunt several times a second, but the threat they generate will remain constant... the damage-aura taunt auras could reapply taunt every few seconds and still generate much more "hate". Even assuming that the duration of the taunt effects is about the same, damage auras still win.
Either way, "Buff INV pls!" 
[ QUOTE ]
Tick rate is fairly irrelevant, since it's now official that damageless Taunt effects overwrite each other rather than stack
[/ QUOTE ]If you're fighting a small enough amount of mobs for the aura to hit all of them, then yes. If not, tick rate is still quite important. And faster tick rate is good for herding as well.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore those with taunt with one base slot might want to rethink their game as they do have their limits.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not that much. Castle said that slotting for taunt duration does affect the threat level, but that the magnitude of taunt effects is pretty irrelevant.
Furthermore, in practice it doesn't make much difference: my DA Scrapper can hold aggro over a Gauntlet-using tanker on an AV by using Scrapper Taunt (one taunt duration) plus his normal attack chain. My INV Tanker has Taunt two-slotted (one duration, one recharge) and can hold aggro over virtually anything, including other Tankers, multiple Brutes, and Taunt-using Scrappers.
The most important thing to realise is that since we now know taunt (the effect) to be effectively a threat multiplier not an on-or-off status effect, we know that closing to melee range and using BOTH your damaging attacks AND Taunt will lock aggro much more solidly than just using Taunt from range.
I'm also unsure whether effects such as Rage or Build Up enter into Taunt (the power)'s threat-equation... one of Castle's examples features slotting and and suggests that damage buffs make a substantial difference to the part of the threat calculation that's attack-based. This may or may not apply to "Taunt" itself, but it certainly applies to "Gauntlet" attacks.
[/ QUOTE ]
Your not looking at what the Taunt power can take in the way of enhancements. Enhancements don't effect magnitude and so bringing up the magnitude makes no difference.
Your DA with the aura and confront can hold aggro over a gauntletting tanker. I know that as its down to the low taunt duration of each gauntlet compared to your duration of confront which seriously increases your threat value. The more duration you have the more threat you multiply.
If you use range as a damage mitigator by limiting what attacks an AV can use. You then may want additional taunt slots to counter the lowering threat rate from being ranged. Then we should get the effect of having a certain % of a much higher duration.
As a Scrapper kiting an AV for one scrapper and 6 blasters everything should be fine unless that one scrapper not kiting has a taunt aura on and/or confronts and against that one target. There is no real need to have a taunt aura on a single target (plus its inefficient) and because another scrapper is taunting there is no need to taunt. The whole team should manage to drop that AV pretty safely barring set attack hard - wired in that you can expect. That confront does take slots in duration to counter the effect of range and on the AV duration must meet the next recharge to constantly cause enough threat to keep aggro.
Not every team needs a tanker and not every team needs a controller and even a defender neither. The game is made so you can go without at least one AT. 7 controllers don't necessarily need that 1 tanker for the STF. They are just slightly safer with one than without and he is stupidly safe. All those defenders and controllers saying "we don't need no stupid tank" should and could have us also saying "well bleep you too" when really; in pretty rounded teams; we know we are better off with at least one of each other.
The very fact that you are above the base slot on your tanker allows you slightly more flexibility and what I said was those that are just the basic taunt slot might want to rethink their game as they do have their limits and they do in fact. They are less likely to say "well bleep you too!"
When it comes to build up and rage they should effect threat levels but 1000 per sec from taunt is such a good multiplier to start. The duration is never the same on every foe so we might assume that to keep adding durations and/or having the recharge meet the duration is a good idea. Quoting some Dev
[ QUOTE ]
So, a scrapper who is standing in the mix of a bunch of guys, with a Taunt Aura, tossing out attacks left and right, is going to be nigh impossible to steal aggro from by a Tanker relying solely on Taunt at Range. Taunt WILL do the trick if the tanker gets closer and tosses an attack or two into the mix.
[/ QUOTE ]
Taunt with extra duration would up the threat level and should keep aggro. Why do I think this. See here:
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does Enhancing the Duration of a Taunt increase the value by which it multiplies Threat Generation?
[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely.
[/ QUOTE ]
You can find before all this came to light I had already said on these forums:
[ QUOTE ]
If i ever get enough people for an all scrapper STF when it comes to fighting the AVs its "auras off" or fail.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thats because the scrappers taunt aura will multiply their threat level from damage and steal aggro from my confront. I just didn't know how exactly and with so many people happy to key mash than test its difficult to get people to do tests but in also knowing how to suppress threat levels ie grant invis chances of keeping control are increased.
Now tanking in melee may hold aggro better but it can also increase chances of AoEs landing on the team. Now AoEs hitting the team is not so bad say if you have a kin to heal everyone up but we don't all look for certain sets to have in the team to make up for our lackings and make us better than we are and so need to trade one thing for another.
I like taunt for the flexibility of going up to any AV without a care in the world about what sets are in team and often having the potential to keep everyone safe because only concept matters.
My tanker when ranged doesn't lose aggro to a scrapper with the aura on, she only hopes they don't use confront on an AV. My scrapper when ranged can lose aggro to a scrapper with the aura on. Both are heavily slotted.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
I've just realised something. I recently respeced Frosty into Icicles (in addition to CE), and I seem to keep the aggro longer when I activate hibernate now.
[/ QUOTE ]
Icicles is <3 . A level 12 pick for me everytime.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Another issue of taunt working this way: Granite is even worse at holding aggro than we thought. We knew about the -recharge on taunt, but this indicates that the -dmg is a significant factor as well.
I really should do something about this signature.
The granite is practically a brick that a lot off the uncaring kind of tankers ask for. A granite without a heavily slotted taunt is pretty lacking in flexibility in what they can do for 'various' team make ups but in some team make ups some people only need someone to take the alpha for them. Only needing someone to take the alpha is more to do with everyones powerset choices and concept rather than team skill.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Unless they're built well. Like +60% or more +recharge, some +runspeed and good teleporting skills along with a moderately-slotted taunt for when they're feeling lazy.
It's perfectly possible to get such a Granite near the defence cap and over the resistance cap on three damage types... with the side benefit of having 50% Psi defence, considerable S/L/E/N defence/resistance, >500% Regen and Perma-EE outside of Granite. Check out the "Dedicated meatshield" build below.
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A lot of peoples will be plain old IOs or SOs still have to function.
Taunt isn't about being lazy, its about taunting a foe effecting someone in another place without bringing the AoEs that is on ones tanker to the person that needs help. So if I am on last health Id rather you taunt the foe off of me than come near me plus range beats travel.
That build is lazy on account off so few attacks.
Also there is the case of formations. A lot off people are run in and mash keys which doesn't suit all types of defenders much in supporting the team and by creating a formation you can bring greater safety.
Meatshields don't impress me as its all only passive defense. Controllers have to be about active defense. Regens have to get their heals in at the right moments and think about what buffs to fire off before an event. Firetanks have to pretty much go about concentrate on destroying groups first. The list goes on. I couldn't play that build because in terms of challenging and fun to play it would be dull like mowing the lawn and in terms of whats challenging for the team as long as they wait for taunt control they are relatively fine. Anyone can eventually get one, walk through the game with it and not need to show any mental gymnastics at all.
That build is far more survivable than it needs to be but it won't defeat anything . I'd rather play having to fear something. His name is Scirrocco
On a side note:
[ QUOTE ]
Mag from multiple taunt attribs will stack with one another (in exactly the same way holds do) but they will not stack their durations.
[/ QUOTE ]
This'll possibly explain why it has often taken me 2 taunts to even gain attention. Which is another reason why "only fools rush in" cos if it takes that much peoples lives are definitely at risk.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
A lot of peoples will be plain old IOs or SOs still have to function.
[/ QUOTE ]
Less than you'd think, assuming they've hit 50 already.
[ QUOTE ]
Taunt isn't about being lazy, its about taunting a foe effecting someone in another place without bringing the AoEs that is on ones tanker to the person that needs help. So if I am on last health Id rather you taunt the foe off of me than come near me plus range beats travel.
[/ QUOTE ]
Taunting is *all* about being lazy. It prevents you from having to keep aggro using less efficient means (attacking). This game has incredibly simple "hate" mechanics, it's laughably easy to hold aggro without much effort because the multiplier for taunt effects is so high.
In most other MMORPGs you have to very carefully balance your aggressive abilities, your healing abilities and your hate-generating abilities when you're in a group that's killing a monster(s). In CoX? Just taunt the thing, it'll focus on you and noone else for ages unless it's a Banished Pantheon Mask (or one or two very other rare mobs Including Rularuu).
Taunt (the power) makes it even simpler. That's why we hear some toons referred to as "taunt bots". They never need to attack if they simply spam taunt and cycle their targets well, because they'll keep all the aggro.
[ QUOTE ]
That build is lazy on account off so few attacks.
[/ QUOTE ]
On the contrary, the build itself isn't lazy, it just promotes a lazy style of play. "Keep aggro and never die" being that style of play. If I were to play that toon, I'd be teleporting about the place like a mad thing to clump foes together, using Ice patch to perma-knockdown them and Mud Pots to slow them so that my teammates could "arrest" them quickly and painlessly.
[ QUOTE ]
Also there is the case of formations. A lot off people are run in and mash keys which doesn't suit all types of defenders much in supporting the team and by creating a formation you can bring greater safety.
[/ QUOTE ]
At the risk of boring your teammates to death. Yes, naturally there are different methods. The most efficient formation in MOST MMORPGS being "(Monster) --- TANK --- MELEES--- SPELLCASTERS". In CoH you usually don't need to worry unless there are several groups in close proximity (> aggro cap), just send the tank in, get aggro and hit it. In CoV the "formations" are much more varied and interesting.
[ QUOTE ]
Meatshields don't impress me as its all only passive defense.
[/ QUOTE ][ QUOTE ]
That build is far more survivable than it needs to be but it won't defeat anything
[/ QUOTE ]
Well that's the idea (survivability). With that build you won't ever have to worry about the tank dying in PvE unless you're fighting Hamidon or the Crystal Titan. The PBAoE-Knockdown-patch-plus-Mudpots combo is also very effective, particularly with a "Mud Pots" slotted with a Damage Proc. That build is extremely efficient at one thing: getting aggro and surviving it. It's one of the best possible builds in the game for that purpose.
Meatshield builds have active defences as well as passive defences. The first active defence is Taunting (you yourself have said that "taunting is the best form of mitigation"), the second is a Damage Aura. The third is Heals. The forth is attacks. The fifth is other clicky abilities, temporary powers and inspirations.
That build has Taunt, a Damage Aura, a Self-Heal, a PBAoE knockdown patch that's easily perma while in Granite, a few attacks (very low priority), Hasten, Conserve Power, Recall Friend and Teleport Foe. All of those allow "active mitigation"... whereas the Defence, Resistance, Mez Protection and Regen are passive.
I'd be quite happy to level and play that toon. Whilst levelling I'd have more attacks, since it'd be slow-going otherwise when not teaming with a bunch of damage dealers... but I'd certainly drag him out to tank just about anything. My INV/SS is "very survivable", That Stone/Ice would be "virtually unkillable". Both would claim and hold aggro very easily, which is the tank's role in a team. The Stone simply sacrifices more attacking power (which is what happens with Granite Armor anyway) for a far more extreme level of survivability.
This game provides a myriad of ways to build an AT, the above Stone/Ice build would simply be on the other end of the "Damage versus Defences" spectrum from a Fire/Fire Tanker. One's better versus lots of smaller, weaker mobs... but the other versus, say, Lord Recluse.
[ QUOTE ]
A granite without a heavily slotted taunt is pretty lacking in flexibility in what they can do for 'various' team make ups but in some team make ups some people only need someone to take the alpha for them.
[/ QUOTE ]
That quote was what I was referring to. "Granites" (I'm assuming you're talking about 'Stone Tanks that rely mainly on Granite Armor') are not nearly as lethargic, slow, and low-AoE-damage as they used to be before IOs.
By it's nature the Stone Armor set allows you to be flexible enough to tank any mob type. Building and playing your toon in order to leverage that survivability into team damage mitigation is what makes a good tanker.
In general, on randomly-selected teams you will have more than enough damage dealers (usually fairly squishy ones) and one or two few support toons. A highly-survivabile aggro magnet like the build I listed would be able to provide mitigation to a team regardless of what buffs or debuffs are available.
That's flexibilty right there. It wouldn't need a FF, Sonic, Empath or any other toon to add to its mitigation. All the team would have to worry about is doing damage and not attracting a large enough number of enemies to go over the aggro cap (and even then, Ice Patch will help). It is not a "tanker"'s job on a typical team to deal the damage, but to attract the foe's attacks and survive. This the Stone/Ice build does very well, regardless of who else is on the team. I'm not stating that all people would enjoy that style of gameplay on such a toon, merely that it is effective and does not preclude "flexibility".
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A lot of peoples will be plain old IOs or SOs still have to function.
[/ QUOTE ]
Less than you might think, assuming they've hit 50 already.
[/ QUOTE ]
Edited.
[ QUOTE ]
Taunting is *all* about being lazy. It prevents you from having to keep aggro using less efficient means (attacking). This game has incredibly simple "hate" mechanics, it's laughably easy to hold aggro without much effort because the multiplier for taunt effects is so high.
[/ QUOTE ]
I find that a lot of tankers have an attack chain plus an aura plus taunt. They do not just spam taunt. Taunt is there to keep damage off of people as I have already mentioned. Laziness is a frame of mind but having less to worry about in terms of personal survivability means less work.
[ QUOTE ]
In most other MMORPGs you have to very carefully balance your aggressive abilities, your healing abilities and your hate-generating abilities when you're in a group that's killing a monster(s). In CoX? Just taunt the thing, it'll focus on you and noone else for ages unless it's a Banished Pantheon Mask (or one or two very other rare mobs Including Rularuu).
[/ QUOTE ]
Then why don't you remove taunt from your tanker if your unhappy with it. Empaths heals are autohit, many debuffs are autohit. There are quite a lot of auto hitting features. Team with anyone who doesn't autohit.
[ QUOTE ]
Taunt (the power) makes it even simpler. That's why we hear some toons referred to as "taunt bots". They never need to attack if they simply spam taunt and cycle their targets well, because they'll keep all the aggro.
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I personally don't care too much about how someone chooses to play the game. You can have a pacifistic hero just taunting away, unhappy to put a punch in if you like or a pacifistic defender concentrating on support. Concept wins. I actually class pacifists who provide support as a special kind of hero. You pay to play and can have any concept you like and you can team with anyone you like. If you don't like someone then don't play with them. I don't play with you do I? There you go then . In the lower levels despite working taunt doesn't last that long anyway a little bit of gauntlet and the use of an aura might be needed to keep aggro. A firetank around +3 Tsoo might miss with BA and his/her attacks due to the hurricane along with everyone else missing but taunt hits. We know Tsoo Sorcerors have ears so why shouldn't it. In getting the right balance which is an on going process the Devs aren't going to make all heals gain greater aggro anytime soon.
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That build is lazy on account off so few attacks.
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On the contrary, the build itself isn't lazy, it just promotes a lazy style of play. "Keep aggro and never die" being that style of play. If I were to play that toon, I'd be teleporting about the place like a mad thing to clump foes together, using Ice patch to perma-knockdown them and Mud Pots to slow them so that my teammates could "arrest" them quickly and painlessly.
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I don't have a Stone/Ice. Those that do have never seen me make a build like that. It is lazy on account of so few attacks as it doesn't really contribute in damage, it also lacks the need to tactically think their way out of a problem. When soloing it'll be a watch telly and play build whilst other tankers have to go with getting damage mitigation from everything being defeated.
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Also there is the case of formations. A lot off people are run in and mash keys which doesn't suit all types of defenders much in supporting the team and by creating a formation you can bring greater safety.
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At the risk of boring your teammates to death. Yes, naturally there are different methods. The most efficient formation in MOST MMORPGS being "(Monster) --- TANK --- MELEES--- SPELLCASTERS". In CoH you usually don't need to worry unless there are several groups in close proximity (> aggro cap), just send the tank in, get aggro and hit it. In CoV the "formations" are much more varied and interesting.
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You might not know everything there is to know about CoH Maelwys. So comparing what the differences are CoH and CoV is more a matter of personal experience than in actual fact. I like to look at any team with a hope of succeeding. If at any time you have said "get a <insert here>" or "we need a <insert here>" or are in need of a fairly supportive set. Then you have been in a place I never have. I like to team with people who simply want to team. In a choice between someone getting their kin or energy blaster for the STF I didn't care. Formations happen as a matter of whose in team and on how best we can all survive, would like to survive and would actually finish things and if all things are right its the Tanker at the most risk. If people are dying around you after you are already ready for them to fight then I don't blame the defenders, I blame you.
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Meatshields don't impress me as its all only passive defense.
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That build is far more survivable than it needs to be but it won't defeat anything
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Well that's the idea (survivability). With that build you won't ever have to worry about the tank dying in PvE unless you're fighting Hamidon or the Crystal Titan. The PBAoE-Knockdown-patch-plus-Mudpots combo is also very effective, particularly with a "Mud Pots" slotted with a Damage Proc. That build is extremely efficient at one thing: getting aggro and surviving it. It's one of the best possible builds in the game for that purpose.
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At the risk of boring your teammates to death. Yes, but no, because you see your team mates are your team mates for a reason and visa versa.
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Meatshield builds have active defences as well as passive defences. The first active defence is Taunting (you yourself have said that "taunting is the best form of mitigation"), the second is a Damage Aura. The third is Heals. The forth is attacks. The fifth is other clicky abilities, temporary powers and inspirations.
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Every effect can be used for survivability but eventually foes must take a fall.
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That build has Taunt, a Damage Aura, a Self-Heal, a PBAoE knockdown patch that's easily perma while in Granite, a few attacks (very low priority), Hasten, Conserve Power, Recall Friend and Teleport Foe. All of those allow "active mitigation"... whereas the Defence, Resistance, Mez Protection and Regen are passive.
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If you love it. Make one. What I would hate to see is everyone with one. The game is already becoming City of Controllers and City of Corrupters in certain areas. Why? Lack of mental gymnastics. You see the teams that get Master of "" badges? The tanker takes the pity spot. 1 tank 3 def and 4 controllers getting the badge is not an achievement especially with your suggested build above. Teams like that go in and mow the lawn as long as people have an idea of what they are doing.
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I'd be quite happy to level and play that toon. Whilst levelling I'd have more attacks, since it'd be slow-going otherwise when not teaming with a bunch of damage dealers... but I'd certainly drag him out to tank just about anything. My INV/SS is "very survivable", That Stone/Ice would be "virtually unkillable". Both would claim and hold aggro very easily, which is the tank's role in a team. The Stone simply sacrifices more attacking power (which is what happens with Granite Armor anyway) for a far more extreme level of survivability.
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I play for flexibility.
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This game provides a myriad of ways to build an AT, the above Stone/Ice build would simply be on the other end of the "Damage versus Defences" spectrum from a Fire/Fire Tanker. One's better versus lots of smaller, weaker mobs... but the other versus, say, Lord Recluse.
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You'd be surprised at how good any type of tank can be against Lord Recluse. The need for Inv and Granite is a myth. A lack of understanding, a lack of mental flexibility and too much generalization. Not necessarily from the players of said tanks themselves but from the players around them.
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A granite without a heavily slotted taunt is pretty lacking in flexibility in what they can do for 'various' team make ups but in some team make ups some people only need someone to take the alpha for them.
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That quote was what I was referring to. "Granites" (I'm assuming you're talking about 'Stone Tanks that rely mainly on Granite Armor') are not nearly as lethargic, slow, and low-AoE-damage as they used to be before IOs.
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Some, a lot of the time are unnecessarily in granite not doing more than they could but I don't really give a damn.
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By it's nature the Stone Armor set allows you to be flexible enough to tank any mob type. Building and playing your toon in order to leverage that survivability into team damage mitigation is what makes a good tanker.
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Icetanks, Firetanks, Invulns and Stonetanks are all good tanks.
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In general, on randomly-selected teams you will have more than enough damage dealers (usually fairly squishy ones) and one or two few support toons. A highly-survivabile aggro magnet like the build I listed would be able to provide mitigation to a team regardless of what buffs or debuffs are available.
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Not necessarily. The game isn't as straight forward as one may think. Every villain has AI and its not always the same and they also have different resistances. A highly survivable aggro magnet doesn't necessarily provide anything neither as players have different levels of experience and expectation. No build and no team of toons are necessarily set to auto win as everything comes down to the players behind the toons.
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That's flexibilty right there. It wouldn't need a FF, Sonic, Empath or any other toon to add to its mitigation.
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No team necessarily needs those particular sets anyway.
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All the team would have to worry about is doing damage and not attracting a large enough number of enemies to go over the aggro cap (and even then, Ice Patch will help). It is not a "tanker"'s job on a typical team to deal the damage, but to attract the foe's attacks and survive. This the Stone/Ice build does very well, regardless of who else is on the team. I'm not stating that all people would enjoy that style of gameplay on such a toon, merely that it is effective and does not preclude "flexibility".
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Yes thats good for players who want to do damage. When I log into my TA I want to play as a TA. I want a reason to debuff and feel like I am a use to the team. If not I like to help those that actually do need me. If I wanted to be all about archery I'd of made an archery blaster. People opinions will differ. Everyones idea of a good tanker differs. Everyone being classed as great in different peoples eyes is great.
I am not going to define fun for people. I don't do fun
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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In most other MMORPGs you have to very carefully balance your aggressive abilities, your healing abilities and your hate-generating abilities when you're in a group that's killing a monster(s). In CoX? Just taunt the thing, it'll focus on you and noone else for ages unless it's a Banished Pantheon Mask (or one or two very other rare mobs Including Rularuu).
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Then why don't you remove taunt from your tanker if your unhappy with it. Empaths heals are autohit, many debuffs are autohit. There are quite a lot of auto hitting features. Team with anyone who doesn't autohit.
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I didn't say I was unhappy with Taunt (the power), I was describing how Taunt (the effect) differs in this game to methods of aggro control in other MMORPGs. Taunt (the effect) locks hate on you VERY solidly, and someone healing injuries or causing damage to the mob won't pull that hate off you. I don't know where you're getting anything applicable to autohit debuffs out of that quote.
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Concept wins.
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Matter of opinion. I like Min/Maxing for a given job/role and coming up with a concept to suit it later. Concept or acting the part is completely irrelevant for me as long as the job gets done.
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It is lazy on account of so few attacks as it doesn't really contribute in damage, it also lacks the need to tactically think their way out of a problem.
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No, it's not. It's only lazy if the player behind the toon is sitting on his (or her) fat posterior coasting through the mission. There is plenty to do other than attacking. And if you're a "Granite", your attacks are practically worthless because of the damage debuff combined with tanker's lower base damage. Locking aggro and letting other toons do damage is not inherently being lazy. It's being tactical, since you're playing to your powerset strengths and not trying to turn your toon into something that it isn't suited for.
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You might not know everything there is to know about CoH Maelwys. So comparing what the differences are CoH and CoV is more a matter of personal experience than in actual fact.
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And the knife cuts both ways here, Shannon.
For the record, I've never said "get a <insert here>". I have recommended toons, certainly. But I can get by without them. In my previous MMORPG I was a Jack-of-all-trades class, the welfare of my team depended on me not slipping up doing my job during continuous, intensive play. And that's the principle idea behind the Stone Build: you don't need to rely on any given class or combination in order to achieve maximum performance.
Given your stated views on flexibility, I'd have thought you'd have appreciation for a toon that can survive and fulfil it's primary team role in nearly any situation with nearly any combination of teammates...
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If people are dying around you after you are already ready for them to fight then I don't blame the defenders, I blame you.
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Why would anyone blame the defenders? I would blame whoever was at fault. Usually the person who pulled too much aggro. Aggro control is not soley limited to the Tank. I don't hold 'pulling too much aggro' against someone unless they do it repeatedly and deliberately, but I certainly try to clear up their messes so that the rest of the team doesn't suffer as a result of their mistake.
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At the risk of boring your teammates to death. Yes, but no, because you see your team mates are your team mates for a reason and visa versa.
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Every effect can be used for survivability but eventually foes must take a fall.
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You answered your own point here. Your more damage-orientated teammates are far better suited to MAKE the foes fall, rather than a Stone Tanker running Granite Armor. Regardless, my earlier point about a damage proc in Mudpots still stands. The proc ends up doing more damage than Mudpots's own effect. Considerably more with i11, if you can get a Purple "33% chance for Fire damage" Proc in there.
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I play for flexibility.
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You'd be surprised at how good any type of tank can be against Lord Recluse. The need for Inv and Granite is a myth. A lack of understanding, a lack of mental flexibility and too much generalization.
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Some, a lot of the time are unnecessarily in granite not doing more than they could but I don't really give a damn.
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Icetanks, Firetanks, Invulns and Stonetanks are all good tanks.
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Then I really don't see why you're desperately trying to find fault with that Stone/Ice build.
The tank in question is a build with a myriad of tools at its disposal, it can operate quite happily in and out of Granite Armor, it can tank any kind of mob in the game without much trouble. Now that's flexibility.
Not all tanks are created equal. For example, I would take issue with someone trying to argue that an INV tanker is inherently more flexible than a Stone Tanker at performing the team tanking role. Stone has far better mitigation against more damage types. The trade-off is Recharge and Damage, Recharge can be overcome with sufficent IO sets and damage doesn't matter. INV is more mobile, and that's about the only advantage it has over Stone. With good use of teleport combined with +runspeed bonuses, that advantage is made virtually meaningless in PvE.
Consider a Fire tanker tanking Lord Recluse. *Whump* two-shot, Faceplanted. With Support? *Whump* (Heal) *Whump* (Heal) *Whump* (Heal) *Enddrain* *Toggledropped* *Whump* *Faceplanted*. The Fire Tanker can tank him, but not without a heck of a lot of outside buffs. which means relying on specific combinations of powersets for specific buffs from your teammates. Which is an inflexible approach to teaming. This is the main reason why people bring "Granites" rather than other tankers to AV fights, they can be relied upon to be self-sufficent and simply not die as easily as other tankers. Aggro control is usually their only downfall, and that can be more than compensated for through good slotting practices. I'm not advocating a nerf, I'm stating that you shouldn't poo-poo a tank build just because it doesn't have many attacks.
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A highly survivable aggro magnet doesn't necessarily provide anything neither as players have different levels of experience and expectation.
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Actually, it provides just that. A "survivable aggro magnet".
If they do their jobs correctly, the rest of the team will never get hit outside of AoE splash damage. Surprisingly, this is an actual role in most MMORPG teams. It's called "the Tank"...
PUG tanks in CoH have perpetuated the notion that good damage output is somehow a requirement of such a tank. That's nonsense. Damage can easily be provided by your teammates and damage output in Granite Armor is debuffed anyway, so it makes far more sense to maximise the defensive capabilities of a Stone Tanker and specialise in order to augment its role as "aggro control and damage mitigation".
In CoH/CoV, aggro control is relatively easiy to accomplish (see my first quote in this post). However, you can always push the "survivability" aspect further and further. Thus, the specialised meatshield build is actually the optimum choice for a team tanking role. At least in CoH. On CoV, as mentioned, the roles are less well-defined... "Squishies" are generally a lot less squishy, and the "Tankers" do large amounts of melee damage output.
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Laziness is a frame of mind
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Laziness is simply "sloth"- an absence of action and an absence of any WILL towards action. It's quite possible to be very busy whilst appearing not do be doing very much. Ask any precision-pet-control Mastermind, Sonic defender, or anyone else with powers that don't brightly glow, explode or fire colourful energy beams.
Likewise, the person controlling a Stone/Ice could be practically falling over themselves in their haste to get all aggro locked onto themselves as tightly as possible... but due to the slower movement capabilities of the powerset, their toon might appear lethargic.
a must read for Tankers
The old me would have pointed out how this vindicates my maintaining (in spite of some pretty nasty crititism) that the devs don't play or understand their own game.
The new me (spurred on by the exit of Cryptic) is encouraged that the devs are trying to clean up their act.
I'm not even going to rant about how this was missed all this time.
Bearing in mind taunts been running on a false premise for almost 4 years (including beta)this discovery must have taken some dedication and hard work to unravel.
So kudos to castle and ghost widow for taking the time.
But, have we all been THINKING that we've been pulling aggro off under seige team mates, when, in fact (because we THOUGHT taunt worked in a certain way) we actually haven't been?
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...