just a quickie
Superior because you can attack with it on. My memory of levelling up my ill/kin was that you wouldn't draw aggro on yourself until you'd defeated one enemy in a group but levelling up my ill/FF once I attacked one enemy they all knew I was there. Either they changed the way it works at some point or my memories are faulty.
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Superior because of its stealth radius.
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Superior because of its stealth radius.
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Agreed. It's just a better version of Invis - not sure how it compares to Hide with radius.
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Superior because of its stealth radius.
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Agreed. It's just a better version of Invis - not sure how it compares to Hide with radius.
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In theory it's higher than Hide, but stalkers have a higher stealth cap, so it's effectively capped for controllers at about the same level as Hide.
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Maybe out of topic but isn't this make Invisibility useless. You can't attack and your invisibility isn't invisibility at all. But i still love to have it on my FF defenders.
Invisibility is far from being useless. It's invisible enough to dance on the heads of almost anything in PvE (Damn Rikti drones!) and if you want to attack something you might as well drop Invisiblity (and switch to Stealth if you need to get closer to the enemy without drawing aggro).
Why would you think that's useless?
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
It also gives defense of 5%, reducing to 2.5% when supressed. 2.5% isn't much, but it's enough for me to usually keep SI on in fights.
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I love to have invisibility on my FF defenders and you can't be seen in most of situations as you stated. But if you compare it with SI: low stealth cap and non-attacking. I am more intended the second part. How does one can't attack while invisible? This is why i said it is useless. Not because invisibility part but for non-attack part. With lower stealth ability (as the present state) and attack ability invisibility will be more usefull imo. It can be fixed like that; when you attack your invisibility will end.
you can attack, it is just suppressed if you do
I am talking about Invisibility, my friend not Superior One. If you can attack with invisibility on, i'm starting to think that game has some kinda grudge against me.
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I am more intended the second part. How does one can't attack while invisible? This is why i said it is useless. Not because invisibility part but for non-attack part. With lower stealth ability (as the present state) and attack ability invisibility will be more usefull imo. It can be fixed like that; when you attack your invisibility will end.
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Well, if you could attack straight away from Invisibility it's effect would be almost on par with Superior Invisibility (thus making SI less superiour which is the whole point of this power in the illu primary set).
On top of that it would be quite inconvenient to implement for the small gain of saving the user a simple click or button-press. It's as easy as Build Up/Aim (if available) -> drop Invisibility or activate Stealth -> unleash mayhem.
I don't know what you mean with 'lower stealth ability' as Invisibility should still be right at the stealth cap for non-stalker-ATs, so any critter without +perception should happily ignore you. So, I still can't see why you talk about Invisibility being 'useless' while it's just a little bit less useful than Superior Invisibility which should be a little bit more useful, hence the name 'Superior'.
The illusionist is a 'specialist' for visual deception and so his invisibility is naturally superiour to another's, just like a mind controller's Terrify is superiour to the fear effects of the Presence pool.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
I understand your point and you are right but i am still say it is useless. If you can't attack in invisibility that seems unreasonable and un-realistic to me. Yeah this is a game but like every game it must have some reality in it. Tell me a reasonable explanation why someone loose his/her ability to attack while invisibile.
Anyway as i said this is my opinion after all. I still think this is useless or whatever you call it. As stealth radius i didn't say it first, Okton did.
There is no reasonable and generally acceptable explanation why someone loses his ability to attack while invisible. Try to see it a little bit different and more related to one toon in question:
In one case it might literally be so that a toon can't attack while invisible. For example, it could be that he uses an 'invisibility generator' that builds a field around himself that either restricts his movements ("No waving around with metal objects or your arm might end up in another dimension!") or causes his weapons/powers to malfunction. Or he might cause his own invisibility by ultra-fast vibrations (Yes, not very scientific, but it works in some comics, so it should also work in Paragon City. ) which make coordinated attacks next to impossible, so he has to stop vibrating first.
In another case he might be able to attack all along, but the toon is just no trained assassin (i.e. stalker). That means that he is just not good enough to attack without giving his position away just one short moment earlier (thus the necessity of dropping invisibility).
Of course, these restrictions can't apply to the masters of illusions (i.e. illu trollers) and assassination specialists (i.e. stalkers) and that's why they have access to special invisibility powers.
I think that's more than enough realism to make it believable in my eyes. And I still insist that a power that has it's tried an tested uses (ghosting missions, surviving in hostile environment, hiding ugly costumes etc.) is - per definition - not useless.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
This happens with every game I can think of. NWN2, Oblivion and WoW you all lose the invis if you attack. NWN2 you can retain a concealment bonus but you will be attacked. Baldurs Gate 2 had an Invis that you remained cloaked even when attacking and it was basically an I Win button (until you ran into mages with True Seeing).
I think they were wrong to slash the Def bonus though but that was a global reaction to layered defenses from things like Group Invis and Grant Invis on Tanks and Scrappers.
Group and Superior Invis aren't as useful as they used to be (Surpression always kicks in on them too if you attack) but being stealthy is handy (I always took Steamy Mist instead). Dunno if, in PvE, I'd consider them worth it given the i9 Stealth Travel IOs.
The greater invisibility also was in NWN 1, as all D&D games. Also in NWN:Hordes of the Underdark you fight with Drugears whose become invisibile at the little sign of danger. But unlike CoH, D&D has counter spells like you mentioned (True Seeing is a high level spell but Invisibility Purge is low level spell and only for countring Invisibility. True Seeing has many other benefits). Also many creatures have special abilities like Blind-sight, scent or constant True Seeing.
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The greater invisibility also was in NWN 1, as all D&D games. Also in NWN:Hordes of the Underdark you fight with Drugears whose become invisibile at the little sign of danger. But unlike CoH, D&D has counter spells like you mentioned (True Seeing is a high level spell but Invisibility Purge is low level spell and only for countring Invisibility. True Seeing has many other benefits). Also many creatures have special abilities like Blind-sight, scent or constant True Seeing.
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NWN the Improved Invisibity is different to Baldurs Gate. NWN it grants 25 or 50% concealment after you attack, Baldurs Gate 2 you were untargettable even when you attacked, it was too overpowered.
2nd Ed and 3 or 3,5 Ed. makes the difference i guess. Never been a great fan of Baldur's Gate only completed it once.
Superior invis: superior because you can attack when its on, or superior because you stay invis once you have attacked?