I think you forgetting 1 of the big points on starting with a Tanker.
Know your tanker.
Each tanker has its Pros and Cons, most of them wont start to shine yet untill higher level, that is where quite some people push it on and boredom kicks in. Each armor set has strong points, but more important, his weak points. Lack of knockback/immobilise, lack of complete mezz-resist outside rooted, massive end-drain if you run too many toggles (fire, inv) and low to poor resist during the early levels. Most people seem to think that the shields out of the box are good enough to hold back a 10-mob group, while they are not much better then a sonic shield or FF buff or even forget they dont have single mez-resist or lack a certain resist. Learning the entire set of your chosen armor helps you a lot facing the different mobs through out your leveling. By knowning how each armor-set works, it helps a lot with chosing the set that suits you most.
Also important, communicate with your team. You are the 1 most likely survive the longest, but if you are already in a weak sitatuation, it wont help much if your team continues rushing in. If you prefer a taunt&pull-hide style, tell them to wait back while you pick up your mobs.
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also healing flames, slotted 3 rchrg 3 heal and hasten combined means that i will get half of my health back every fifteen seconds or so with the added bonus of bio protection for when im fighting Hydra.
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Specialy for starters this is very confusing, the 15 seconds is based on a full set of Single Origen, lvl22 onwards. Pre-SO it is a live safer, but at the same time it can drain your little remaining endurance to keep your toggles running.
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My attitude towards tanking can be summed up in 4 letters: FIFO.
First In, First Out; a good tanker should always go down with his ship.
You go in, you gain control of the mobs, you team moves in, the mobs die, you move on. If things go pear shaped, you do everything you can to allow the rest of your team to escape - if needs be, you keep on tanking the mobs until your team returns from the hospital and regroups.
In short, you cannot be afraid of debt. On no account should you ever run from a mob while your team is still engaging them. Your over-riding duty is to keep your team alive, no matter how suicidal they might be (within reason - sometimes they just deserve it).
People who refuse to run their armours because "they use too much endurance" are bad tankers.
People who play like scrappers are bad tankers.
People who run from mob to mob aggroing everything they can are bad tankers.
And people who get their team killed because they can't manage the aggro are bad tankers.
For those of a whinging disposition, please note the differentiation betweeen tanker and player in the above paragraph.
Tanking isn't flashy, it isn't galmorous and people will rarely thank you for your "good tanking", but that doesn't make it any less important or rewarding.
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My attitude towards tanking can be summed up in 4 letters: FIFO.
First In, First Out; a good tanker should always go down with his ship.
You go in, you gain control of the mobs, you team moves in, the mobs die, you move on. If things go pear shaped, you do everything you can to allow the rest of your team to escape - if needs be, you keep on tanking the mobs until your team returns from the hospital and regroups.
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Isn't that FILO - First in Last out? Apart from tht little pernickity bit, I totally agree - I think my Tanker will be the only character to join my Blaster in the land of perma-debt.
@Jay Leon Hart
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You go in, you gain control of the mobs, your team moves in
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That's it for me, I like to be in first, gain control of mobs and then the team moves in.
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Also important, communicate with your team. You are the 1 most likely survive the longest
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I like to see the whole team play in a way that tries to make it so my tanks are most likely defeated first without basically being a shipful of mutineers trying to get me killed. I like to be the only one getting hit, people may either attack too early or not wait far enough behind a given herdpoint which is there to remove chance of ambush or to tighten mobs for survivability or -fight duration.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Tanking isn't flashy, it isn't galmorous and people will rarely thank you for your "good tanking", but that doesn't make it any less important or rewarding.
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I'm surprised to hear you say that, because I think good tanking is almost always noticed and praised. That has certainly been my experience on both Union and Defiant.
However, the really great tankers are a varied lot. Not all great tankers are great team tankers, some are more along the lines of being indestructable, but not able to hold agro as well as the team would like.
Invulnerability tends to suffer this most, because it doesn't have quite the level of taunting auras as some other sets, and really has to rely only on the taunt power itself to hold the attention of more than about 8 enemies.
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Each armor set has strong points, but more important, his weak points.
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Absolutely true, but as the OP said, just how much of a strength or weakness any given armour set may have also depends on the build/style of tanker you are going for.
The invulnerability set is one of the strongest, for instance, if well slotted, for sheer ability to take tons of damage and keep right on going. This can be one of the best armours for players who play solo a lot. However, Invulnerability doesn't have a damage aura like some other sets, and is generally the least capable of real herding unless a lot of taunt duration modifiers are slotted where other enhancements might be better.
Fiery Armour is one of the best solo armours for its extra damage, its great healing, and its superb endurance drains, which collectively mean you can get through missions much faster than most tankers. But without a doubt the Fiery Armour build has the least damage mitigation, and will heavily depend on a lot of use of the Healing Flames if big mobs, or especially powerful mobs, are to be encountered.
Stone Armour is probably the all round most personally powerful defence set, but because granite armour massively debuffs the speed and attack power of the tanker, these tankers are often the most buff-dependant to get around the disadvantages of their incredible armour.
Stone tanks do tend to be great team tanks, able to hold agro well with taunt and mudpots, but really do need those buffs or they chug along very slowly indeed.
Ice Armour is my personal favourite as the ultimate 'team tanker' armour set. Only the Ice Tank reduces damage taken by the entire team, because chilling embrace lowers the actual damage dealing of all foes it affects around the tank.
With Chilling Embrace, Icicles, and Taunt, no other armour set has quite as much potential to hold agro. Not only is the Ice tank not slowed by his best shields like a Stone Tank is, he is actually resistant to speed debuffs, and so generally laughs at quicksand, caltrops, web grenades, etc. running happily right through them to smite the foe.
However, because Ice Armour is the one almost entirely defence-based set, rather than based mostly on damage-resistances, high-accuracy enemies may just tear right through the defence, unless you get some buffs.
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The whole question of tauntless tanks aside, there are definately DDT's. There seem to be too rough camps to tanking. The first is people who chose to tank because they like to help and protect other people, the second are people who took the Tank AT because it has the best defences and they are therefore the least likely to die.
My rough estimation of tanking primaries is:
Stone (non-Granite): Good spread of defences, nothing particularly strong, best psi-tank. Challenge is lack of mobility.
Stone (Granite): Best toughness. Challenge is keeping aggro (very hard)
Invun: Good all rounder. Toughness increases proportional to enemy numbers.
Fire: Best damage. Challenge is staying alive.
Ice: Best aggro getter.
Ice:
ice has very good survivability also.
For solo i think its also based on secondairy. Although fire can heal alot, the ammount of toggles they basicly need to run is pretty insane compared to others. once you get a bunch of -recharge on you, your final panic buttons wont help you anymore, unlike Inv or Ice who have the panic button (hibernate/unstoppable). Together with burn being badly nerfed (fear), solo you need a immobilize/hold power or (highly used) ice patch from the Ice secondairy.
From all my tankers (got inv, fire and granite), i always liked to solo my granite, nothing to worry about and having rage running the -damage is overcome very easy. Fire is very fast and fun to play, there are several mobs where it becomes a bit too annoying to solo against, drainers and -recharge in particulary.
Ice is the only set i never played upto higher lvls, mainly because i dont like the 'luck' factor. The change little damage get blocked, but a high damage gets through still annoys me, specialy if you face AV's or Elite bosses.
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Personally, once you play ice its hard to go back to other tanks after you have felt the awesome aggro magnet effect of chilling embrace...
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once you play ice its hard to go back to other tanks...
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I'll agree with that.
However, we should also look at what the secondaries do to affect the precise role of the tanker in question.
Super Strength is one of the most aggressive in terms of putting a single target down fast. SS comes with very good recharge times compared to the some others, but of course, those faster recharges can also make it very demanding on endurance in protracted battles. SS has a lot of knockbacks though, so may actually diminish the ability to hold taunt, as it continually bats targets out of any taunt auras the tank may have.
Personally, I tend to view Super Strength as one of the better attack sets for tanks who solo a lot, and one of the weaker for those who are going to herd for a team.
Energy Melee is widely considered one of most powerful secondaries availabe, and is especially favoured for PvP builds. The lowest attack in the set has a very fast recharge, so while it does only comparatively tiny damage, it is very good at helping to hold aggro under Gauntlet. The massive power of the mightiest attacks really don't need to be mentioned. The fact that energy attacks cause disorientation can reduce the ability of targets to fight back, making this an excellent all round choice.
Fiery Melee is the other secondary choice that is extremely aggressive, having some truly superb damage available for relatively little endurance costs. Especially in PvE, for average use I rate Fire as the most damaging melee type in most situations, especially in protracted fighting. This is the set I most recommend for soloing, (unless you expect to PvP a lot), as it seriously improves the speed at which you can defeat mobs.
Ice Melee is like the Ice Armours, all about damage limitation. Each attack slows the rate of recharge on targets, and with Ice Patch to make average mobs breakdance harmlessly around you, and a decent hold attack, this set is superb for anyone who really wants to be nearly unkillable in PvE, and still a reasonably frightening foe in PvP.
This is an attack set that really, really, helps your defence like you'd not believe. However, it is one of the least damaging in many ways, and I personally find Ice Melee one of the slowest to kill mobs with, so it can be a poor choice indeed for solo players.
Stone Melee is pretty awesome in its powers, but its real weakness, just like with Stone Armours, is in the recharge times. However, the damage can be superb, and this has a lot of damage mitigations too in the mass knockback and in the mass disorient attacks.
You would be amazed at how awesome an Ice Armour/Stone Melee Tank can be at going into fights and never getting successfuly hit even once. Stone Melee is (IMO) the second-most defensive melee choice, but is also capable of some massive attacks, so one of the best all round, especially if you think you'll often get speed buffs, or are taking hasten in your build.
The choice of melee type will affect your optimal roles almost as much as your primary armour choices, so do choose carefully based on what role you most enjoy taking, and how important it will be for you to dish out reasonable damage, compared to just how indestructable you wish to be.
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However, the really great tankers are a varied lot. Not all great tankers are great team tankers, some are more along the lines of being indestructable, but not able to hold agro as well as the team would like.
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Tankers are designed to be there in the team to protect the controllers, defenders and blasters. Protecting the most soloable AT, in the CoH game, the scrapper, is also nice when necessary but not always achieveable due to scrappers "having" to be in melee, and highly likely to be subjected to cone attacks, aoes and pbaoes and for which they have their secondary for as fighting in melee is far from optional.
There is a point at which full taunt control of a group is established and this is the safest time for blasters, controllers and defenders to attack. In game however people will attack at any unsafe point in time due to lack of knowledge, panic (fear for tankers life??) and cause perhaps unnecessary recoveries to be made.
Scrappers who get to a level where they start running into the next group first can put defenders, blasters and controllers at risk if they were to act in supporting the scrapper before the tanker is in control. A tanker maybe late/last coming out of a group due to "what's still in it".
Tankers are only great if they get to do their job and can do their job. The way in which they have to do their job may differ.
Every tanker is different, due to power pick choices and need to perform in a way that compensates. I have seen a Stone tanker try to move like an Ice tanker and i have seen teams try to play with a stone tanker like it was an ice tanker - it doesn't work.
The last out factor is basically when things are going badly and your giving everyone time to run. Whether they listened to your wish to pull to a herd point or listen to whether or not you wish to tactically retreat is another thing. Uncooperative teams can reduce gaming enjoyment and aren't actually a team. A good tank is most likely defeated first played to perfection and a team only needs to be cooperative enough to achieve that and it doesn't mean the tanker would have to be defeated neither.
Great tanks can take damage off of the team. Tanks that can take all the damage of the team yet don't or simply maybe great fun to team with and therefore great from a fun perspective to some people.
Taunt doesn't untank a tank but it does make one flexible, people are potentially safer with one then one without.
Some people aren't appreciative of what a tanker does. I knew a Mind controller who could point for a team and avoided getting a tanker for the team just so that he could be seen as point. He and the team weren't as safe as they could of been but that wasn't of his concern. His concern was in him trying to look good. I know of a dark defender who did the same but the one tanker I did see him team with made things unsafe with bad tanking, and he said he drops a few IQ points cos tanking is easy 
but in general tanks are meant to make any situation safer and a tanker cant necessarily do that if he runs to tank one mob and some n00b "i wanna look pro!!!11!!" runs towards another.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I know of a dark defender who did the same but the one tanker I did see him team with made things unsafe with bad tanking, and he said he drops a few IQ points cos tanking is easy
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Just to clarify a few of my tanky mates who say they drop in IQ when they play a tank just to annoy me and i better clarify this was on defiant and not the tanks on defiant I know from Union cos twice today i have already been gettin "that wasn't me was it?"
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Excellent post. Thanks for taking the time.
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In short, you cannot be afraid of debt. On no account should you ever run from a mob while your team is still engaging them. Your over-riding duty is to keep your team alive, no matter how suicidal they might be (within reason - sometimes they just deserve it).
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Keeping the team alive is the job of every member of the team, the tank just has a specific way of doing it. If the team plays as a team and the tank tells people to retreat then they'll retreat and allow the tank to attempt a withdrawl themsevles. Everyone stays alive. If someone refuses to aknowledge that the tank has indicated a retreat then that's really their problem not the tank's.
In saying that, the number of times I've had my tank get the [censored] beaten out of it because soemone refused to listen just isn't funny. Despite what I said, it's pretty hard to leave someone in the thick of it, even when they do deserve it.
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ice has very good survivability also.
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A ha... a haha...
Post issue 7 and scaling defence, it does. Too much survability perhaps.
Given it has the best aggro management, highest manueverability, an AoE damage aura AND will protect the scrapper next to him from AoE attacks (due to debuff aura) its current high level of surviability is a bit hard to justify IMO.
I think it boils down to pre scaling defence, Chilling Embrace was given a tasty -damage debuff to compensate (?) - which has been kept...
Seriously, an Ice tank seems to be FoTM for teams these days. And with good reason.
I remember in talos once there was a lvl 50 ice tank on the train station, someone asked him
"Excuse me, how did you get an ice tank to lvl 50?"
=D
Pre-Issue 7, I presume?. Things are mighty different for defence these days. Back before scaling defence, Ice tanks truly where gimp tastic.
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Seriously, an Ice tank seems to be FoTM for teams these days. And with good reason.
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From all of my hero teaming i've done, i indeed see alot of ice tankers. The downside many dont know, its 'lucky' based. If you are being unlucky and you get 5 hits in a row from +4 freaks.. that hurts :P Many feel too much 'icicles/CE aggro enough so i never use taunt', putting the team in some nasty situations.
Perhaps i go run a ice tanker for a change, just to get the feeling of it 
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Firstly, 5 Hits in a row is exceptionally unlucky. Even if you dont run weave or combat jumping or have any -acc or +def support.
Secondly, thats what dull pain is for.
Thirdly, 5 Hits in a row from minions isnt going to do much other than tickle. Its the 5 Hits from boss's and lts that really hurt. And you dont face to many of those to quickly (especially with CE reducing the attack chain). THe "unlucky streak" problem of defence is far less of a problem on high HP toons like tanks.
Fouthly, CE does have something like a -30% defence debuff which takes some of the sting out of the punches.
Seriouslly, whilst once in every 1-2 hours or so I get caught out and get 50-75% of my HP gone in a few seconds, its rarely a problem - hit Dull pain and plow on. The only time I wish I had resistance instead of defence is vs AVs.
-30 damage debuff, but thats ok
I agree its highly possible getting a 5 hit in a row, but if i read all the fotm-ish style about Ice, yet i'm not impressed yet. As said, i just have to try 1 and see how it goes (i got all other sets, so great to compare).
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Pre-Issue 7, I presume?. Things are mighty different for defence these days. Back before scaling defence, Ice tanks truly where gimp tastic.
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You say that, but it's not entirely true. Ice Armour was just as good as the other Tanker sets pre-I5 as long as you weren't fighting anything that was more than +2 to you.
Since the various attempts to fix the defence scaling problem have been introduced, Ice is significantly more survivable, but it can still suffer from bad luck. One day you can tank an entire room, the next you get wiped out by the alpha strike from one group - C'est la vie.
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Pre-Issue 7, I presume?. Things are mighty different for defence these days. Back before scaling defence, Ice tanks truly where gimp tastic.
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You say that, but it's not entirely true. Ice Armour was just as good as the other Tanker sets pre-I5 as long as you weren't fighting anything that was more than +2 to you.
Since the various attempts to fix the defence scaling problem have been introduced, Ice is significantly more survivable, but it can still suffer from bad luck. One day you can tank an entire room, the next you get wiped out by the alpha strike from one group - C'est la vie.
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And thats the joy of it!
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-30 damage debuff, but thats ok
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Isnt that what I said, -30% damage debuff?
Oh, btw, I guess you could reasonably compare it to pre-granite stone armour if you played that set. They are both fundamentally defence based sets.
I made a similar post to this on the scrapper forums offering basic advice to new scrappers, although it did admittedly digress into a debate about power levelling, mostly was well recieved so i thought i'd make one about tankers too (being my favourite AT).
Tankers are a very interesting archetype, becasue their build can make a lot of difference in the success rate of a team. In fact ive seen teams do better after a tank left becasue that tank had a rough build.(either that or a bad player behind the wheel, this is of course at higher levels where you would expect someone who has a tank at that level to be reasonably adept at using it)
When i built my first tanker, i got bored and deleted him, as with several attempts shortly after. Mainly because of the endurance drain, but also becasue of my lack of understanding about the power sets at that time.
I hear a lot of players discussing which is the best armour set to use, and i can honestly say that there isnt one. They are all good, given time and thought. My favourite Has to be fire, but i enjoy playing all of them.
THere are different types of tanking styles which when you have decided upon should be the theme of your build right from level one. You can be the tank who stands in the middle of a mob taking damage and waiting for your team to wipe them out and thus requiring a heavy defence bias in your build but this means that solo'ing becomes a longer more laborious task. You can be the kind of tank that bounce around the map tearing up the mobs fast and letting the rest of the team work round a different section. and then theres PvP tankers, which require a fine balance of offence, defence and status protection.
For a new player choosing a tanking style isnt really a problem becasue if you are new to the game you dont really have these consierations in mind, all you want is a Superhero that can kill fast and look good doing it right?
Lets look into what a tankers classic role is then before we go any further. Essentially a tanker is probably the most 'Heroic' of the Archetypes because of what they are designed to do. They are the guys who taunt the badguys and take the big hits, in the interests of the rest of the team not getting hit, so that they can do the killing. This is NOT the only way to tank and i have seen some really effective builds that are in no way based on this ideal. HOWEVER Tankers are the only AT designed to take a large amount of damage and smile back at those bad guys asking for more. I would say that for a new tanker this is a safe place to start, define your character and playstyle on the idea that you will be getting hit.. a lot.. and that is your job to protect the less resilient characters, then you will not go wrong in a team, who as a generalisation will expect just that from a tank.
Once again i must stress that this is by no means the only method and im certainly not trying to tell any new players what they should ad shouldnt do. This is simply my way of trying to make a new tankers life easier.
MY main tank (Thundorn Igniter) is fire/ Energy Melee. I was at first a bit dissapointed by the last of multiple target attacks available in the EM set, but once i had played on a bit and gotten Hasten, with two extreme attacks and the rest being not too weak either i realised that i didnt need to hit multiple enemies, Igniter can 2 hit a +2 lieutenant and in a matter of seconds those attacks are ready to go again. Not having a power like foot stomp that puts them on their backs DOES somewhat reduce the effectiveness of BURN as they all run away from it (Hence why i rarely use it) so why is it in my build? get a kin in the team to hold my herded mob, fulcrum shift them and then hit burn, they will be dead within seconds. also healing flames, slotted 3 rchrg 3 heal and hasten combined means that i will get half of my health back every fifteen seconds or so with the added bonus of bio protection for when im fighting Hydra.
Taunt is a hotly contested issue with tankers, I've heard a lot of players slating a tanks 'Selfish build' becasue they dont have taunt and being referred to as DDT's (Debt Dodging Tanks) in fact some people will kick a tank from a team for not having it. Personnaly i wouldnt go that far, just bacause they dont have taunt doesnt mean they cant tank, their aoe's (area of effect) might be slotted with 3 taunt duration and a couple of acc enhances meaning that unless the mob takes forever to go down (in which case i think the tanks lack of taunt is the last issue that needs to be addressed) they will hold Aggro pretty well anyway.
Anyway before i digress, the tips i wished i would have had when i first tried to build a tanker.
1. Turn off sprint when fighting, this saves a heck of a lot of endurance at low levels.
2. DOnt dismiss other players advice, consider it when thinking about your build. SOme players can be rude when offering advice but i generally put this down to lack of mastery of the English language rather then assuming they are arrogant.
3. Remember the style of tank you want to achieve and stick to it until you can respec and change it.
4. Taunt is VERY useful and arguably the defining tanker power, but NOT having it does not make you a bad player and anyone who says otherwise without giving you a chance to prove yourself is very closed minded and probably not worth teaming with.
5. An issue which always causes dispute is power levelling, if you are a new player, try to avoid the temptation to power level. Its great watching that xp roll in and knowing that next time you see Ms Liberty youll have ten levels to collect but you are missing out on play time and experience that is vital for the new player to understand their character and the game mechanics. Beleive me when i say that there are a lot of lvl 50's out there who have never played the game properly and would rather hang around barking out diminutive comments then show their inexperience by actually playing the game.
6. At lower levels its important for a tank to be as resilient as possible, due to the huge amount of endurance your attack will use. Building up your armours is the best way to avoid the debt monster and see yourself get that lvl 14 travel power as quickly as possible. Its tempting i know when you look at that secondary power column and see all those lovely attacks to go nuts on offence, but youll soon find out how much difference that armour would have made when your endurance bar is empty and your left a sitting duck fighting a +2 that you thought you could nail but never managed to actually hit.
7. TURN OFF YOUR AOE's WHEN TRAVELLING. theres nothing worse then forgetting to turn off Blazing aura and running through the hollows to meet Flux only to get your backside handed to you on a plate becasue youve aggroes the last two mobs you ran past, its a long way back there from atlas hospital.
8. This tip is non-AT specific, You will unfortunately (particularly in atlas and galaxy) run into people who have lesser social skills and feel it necessary to spoil other players gaming experience. THis is controlled to a certain degree by chat censoring and petitioning. THers always a way round the censor as it only looks for specific words, and a lot of the time these griefers will get away with it becasue people tend to carry a 'someone else will do it' attitude to petitioning. Dont be affraid to report violations of the EULA, the guily party will not know who reported them and its the only way they will learn. Whatever you do, DONT let them drag you down to their level by arguing back.
9. Terms you may hear....
OMW-On My Way
LMAO-Laugh my *Behind* off
PMSL-*wet* myself laughing
BRB- Be Right Back
OMG-Oh my *goodness*
TYVM-Thank you very much
10. learn from your experiences and if you keep dying, instead of blaming other people, look at what happened and think about what YOU could do to prevent it.
11. DONT be affraid of debt, Some people fear it like death itself and will spoil other poeples gaming experience to avoid it. It does slow your levelling down, but it doesnt stop it. And remember xp is NOT the most important part of the game. The Game itself is!
12. ENJOY THE GAME. if grinding on your current character is getting boring or even frustrating, do something else, make a new character or something, you have ten slots to choose from (or 6) take a break. Dont let the fact that its taking ages to get your next level sour your spirit. The reason you play is becasue you want to have fun. Go to atlas and meet other players. MOstly they are friendly and will maybe give you advice or help.
I started out as a scrapper but my first lvl 50 was actually an empathy defender. Beleive me when i say that a lot can be learned from playing as an empath. There were times when i was hardly needed becasue the Tank was doing such a great job that nobody else was getting hit, but there were also times when i was flat out because the tank was pretty poor or just running scared of debt. there is no AT that is the most inportant in a team, everyone has a job to do and when they do it right is when the game is most fun.
I think i've rattled on enough now.
GET OUT THERE AND SAVE THE WORLD!!!