Hey mate, I can understand you concern, every time our SG has to pay Base Rent its about 1/3 of what we've earned since the last payment, which is a lot. I worry as what we earn is not going to increase but the rent is, so eventually we will have more rent to pay than what we can earn....
I've thought about deleting the items and only placing them back down for a raid, but we dont wants that. I myself would like to know the correct meaning for base rent and exactly how it works.
I believe Base Rent is an important issue that needs looking at. [img]/uk/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]
It is getting looked at, you know.
The prestige boost patch is on test server now, also.
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I know we have the 25% prestige increase to look forward to but that's just going to compound the problem. You're earning 25% more prestige so your SG worth(and rent) is just going up 25% quicker.
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I have read about the updates over Base Rent, but as Kin said, increasing the amount of prestige a player earns is not going to help. What I think needs looking at is the actual system in which a SGs Base Rent is decided. I'm sure I've read that this is also being looked at. *finger crossed*
The prestige boost will change where the crunch point happens for any given SG, but it won't change the fact it's going to happen.
That said, I'm pretty sure that this won't kill bases - the reason being that a PvE fully functional base can be maintained with 3 people. Where it becomes an issue is the oh-so-well-implemented raid system.
In the ideal world, base construction will stop at the point where earnings=rent, which is the model the devs seem to have used, entering a static state.
What is not included in the model - attrition of characters, both in terms of people leaving the game, and in terms of lower alts replacing 50's. No hard numbers, but I'm pretty sure my pres/hour is much higher on my 50 than my lvl 10-20 alts.
It also doesn't account for destruction of items during raids - does anyone even know if you get refunded the prestige, is it "just" a loss of salvage?
Ultimately, I disagree with kinslayer - rent isn't going to kill unraidable bases, and right now, rent isn't exactly the top of the list of things that will kill raidable bases either [img]/uk/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
There has to be a glass ceiling somewhere, glass ceilings are what make it possible for the playing field to be determined by something other than the age of your account, but the rent system isn't a very good one.
Trouble is, I can't think of anything better, except possibly capping prestige based on the SG size, which will just encourage bloated SG's with inactive alts to fill in the gaps.
Base rent as a percentage makes me feel defeated right now.
If our SG has a good run on the Prestige, we smile, pat one another on the back and put our feet up with a warm sherry to celebrate... basically we're pretty chuffed with ourselves. Then a day or two later WHAM! we assaulted by a silly Rent price that takes a massive chunk of the hours worth of prestige we've just built up.
I'm inclined to agree with the OP, if we don't modify the base for a bit, we stockpile funds instead we end up back to square one after rent.
That said, our base hasn't changed in ages coz what prestige we do earn is stung so harshly. Can't see it improving. Then you've got the prices of items... well that just adds to the 'ouch' factor.
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You're looking way too far ahead, the kind of decline you're talking about would have to take place over quite a long stretch of time, you're easily looking at a year minimum for an SG of 75 members. In that time the entire rent system is planned to be evaluated by development, and anyone with a little faith in the development team would likely agree it'll be dealt with.
We have a 75 person SG that's been going a year (today - yay!!) but not a year with a base, fair enough. The rent issue will hopefully get addressed before we are broken by the system.
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I don't know if it was intended or not, but Recluse's Victory is a wonderful place for paying the rent - a team of 8n from an SG can earn a vast amount of Prestige there ina short-ish time.
A monthly session there could pay the rent for most SGs.
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I really need to go back and look at exactly how rent is determined atm; however, as most agree there is a problem. I saw some math done by someone on another thread somewhere and my jaw dropped when I saw the time needed for a SG to afford the larger plots, not to mention the rent.
Gonna have to set some time aside to do some research, but I guess the only thing we can do is wait for the changes they're gonna make in the rent system and hope the system is a little more realistic then the current one.
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completly agree base rent is a worry at the moment our base rent is just breaking the 1/4 mil mark and only getting higher
a few weeks back i stuck an idea on sugestoins on how to change the rent from percentage base to be based on the size of your plot making it alot easyer to manage and plan for.
however as far as im aware they are giving th rent system a full overhawl to what end who knows its suposed to be fore our benifit but we all heard that before havent we
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and anyone with a little faith in the development team would likely agree it'll be dealt with.
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Well that would be my problem right there what with the premature launch of I7 and its numerous bugs..
Said it before and i'll say it again. Scrap rent, it serves no purpose.
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a few weeks back i stuck an idea on sugestoins on how to change the rent from percentage base to be based on the size of your plot making it alot easyer to manage and plan for.
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I'm sure this was mentioned in the posi interview on w00t - that they were going to change the rent system to be based on the plot size rather than the pres of an sg. I can't remember if this was a definate though.
Rent is a horrible, horrible idea - my SG is now shelling out around 100k every time, and its really depressing to have worked hard to gather the Prestige only to see a HUGE chunk of it being torn away for rent.
Also isn't the rent every 14 days? I know Arachnos are villains but that's heavy-handed extortion even for them [img]/uk/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
Easy way to avoid the 14 days thing - DON'T pay rent as soon as you're asked to - ignore the request until your generator shuts down - THEN pay - the 14 day counter is from when you pay it each time you see [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
which is a bloody stupid idea as well, we lost x amount of prestige by having helpful, but uninformed, sg mates pay it early...
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I could be wrong, but I vaguely remember testing the whole "which day to pay rent" thing I while ago an i thought the counter started from when the rent was due, so equally 14 days every time. I will test it again tho! [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
As for calculating the rent on the base size/plot size, I doubt it'd work. People would either just avoid upgrading the plots. Or alternatively, sell most of the base before the rent was calculated, then buy it all again the next day! A a fair amount of hassle, but for the amount you could save... [img]/uk/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
If there is some reason for keeping rent that no one has discovered yet, then the only way I can see do it fairly without cripling the smaller, or killing the larger SGs is to work out a percentage on the amount of prestige earnt in a fortnight.
Rent = (total prestige on day 14) - (total rent at day 0) * 9%
Would be interested to see exactly how they calculate rent atm tho [img]/uk/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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Hopefully, Dr Death can flesh out some of my worries as the highest prestige earning group around. I'm sure he keeps a good record of how much prestige comes in each week and how much rent is so may be able to tell us how long until he reaches the point where rent overtakes prestige.
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well, atm we re paying 61% rent from the pres we are making in 2 weeks =O next payment is 800k ish!! but is im sure i mentioned in aprevious post somewhere, i think it actually might be a functional system where the base never will outgrow the SG, even tho its been active for 3 years? since rent is deducted from SG-networth, this means ur SG will never reach a minus-situation, but will be able to reach a standstill vs rent. i can see why this is a factor that upsets ppl since it means they will have to scale down base size once the limit has been reached, and then stop evolving. The only real issue with this, is that when ppl stop caring about the base since it dont evolve or gets new stuff) ppl loose interest and that can have some bad mood surging through an SG crippling it even more.
I heard they are looking at rent it self and is thinking about lowering it, and that sounds good. mind u, that it should take some time before an SG reaches their networth cap of they can keep a steady development in activity (as longas the SG isnt deteriorating, it should take by my estimates 12-18 months* before a SG of any size will reach its cap, tho smaller SGs have a possibility to expand, while big SG wont.)
* in 9.5 months We made 2/3 of our cap, in a total of 14 months we shuld have reached a standstill unless the SG drops in activity or we will start to boost pres-making (several powergrinders or PL-ers). This equation also apply to smaller SGs, if they stand in a constant growth, and dont expand. (ie a SG with 20ish ppl, happy the way things are)
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The sad thing is that the end result of of being highest prestige earners about is that people don't really want to raid them anymore as the defences in there tear most raiders apart before they even zone [img]/uk/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
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Weel, actually ppl shouldnt fear the numbers.. the HP-boost to equip has changed the way of baseraids alot. they also threw in a few other *unknown* suprises with i7 that actually makes alot easier to enter a base (and makes static defenses like turrets almost a waste of space)
Tho overall bases are harder to defeat nowdays, it is now more of a question of PvP skill (more similar to Arena). im still trying to test a few things out (but raids are, as said here, hard for us to come by) but it appears that the entire Assault team tactics is very diff from other forms of PvP. Brutes/tanks used as ganking party dont seem to have any effect anymore, but more the kind of ideas and creativity of RSF-teams... which ofcourse needs some serious training/tactics to be able to avoid mass-ganking, but im working on a formula, and if any base is willing to test their defenses, we will be happy to raid ur base atleast. =)
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since rent is deducted from SG-networth, this means ur SG will never reach a minus-situation, but will be able to reach a standstill vs rent.
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Unless you buy stuff with the prestige and dont sell items to pay rent.... Then the base will get locked down and you cant sell the items anymore..
I understand Dev's wish to create a soft cap for SG wealth, but Im sure there must be a better method for it..
In practise this will just lead to a point where the SG will stop evolving like Dr.Death proved which should NEVER happen in a game like this. Players will just lose interest because I sure wouldnt bother playing just to 'uphold' the situation. Too big Sg is like a no-win situation.
This is one of the things Posi addressed in his w00t radio interview - I think they're happy with the rate of prestige being earned but not the rent. IIRC, they're going to look at implementing a flat rate system based on plot size, and see if that works as one option.
From the noises being made we can probably expect a change circa I8-ish.
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Unless you buy stuff with the prestige and dont sell items to pay rent.... Then the base will get locked down and you cant sell the items anymore..
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considering u get a notification about rent pretty long before its due, and u can owe rent for a while, a lockdown isnt really an issue, unless u disregard the rent on purpouse and dont save up for it (which is ofcourse stupid and then deserves to get locked down) however im quite sure i once entered base with my rank 1 char after a lockdown and sold stuff to pay rent once, but i wont guarantee that so was the case, tho it sounds most likely that the highest ranked memebr can access base to sell items to pay rent.
Yeah, i was talking about theoretical possibility. It can be a case of everyone being offline long enough however, the 3-person vg i was on on cov got base locked down for rent of 330. Purely theoretical example but i wanted to say it is possible to go negative prestige.
I was highest rank but i couldnt enter base after it was locked btw.
ah.. well tbh, in a case like this, the SG shouldnt own a base 
so it still feels as a good balance.. but on another matter.. unless they release IoPs soon, no1 is gonna care about bases anyway other than means of transportations =(
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ah.. well tbh, in a case like this, the SG shouldnt own a base so it still feels as a good balance.. but on another matter.. unless they release IoPs soon, no1 is gonna care about bases anyway other than means of transportations =(
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True, storage is good too. Having insp storages and autodoc in bases is great in more regular zone pvping.
Btw that 3-person vg just got a functional base of hospital,crafting table and some storage. I love the new additions.
I still dont see what IoPs have got to do with base pvp though. If its not happening without IoPs it aint gonna happen with them either as IoPs suck.
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You're looking way too far ahead, the kind of decline you're talking about would have to take place over quite a long stretch of time, you're easily looking at a year minimum for an SG of 75 members. In that time the entire rent system is planned to be evaluated by development, and anyone with a little faith in the development team would likely agree it'll be dealt with.
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No he's not, because it's happening now. The Echelon (my SG) is running into rent problems. A few of our regulars dinged 50 and have started new toons and we're seeing a general decline in earned prestige; to the point where rent is becomming a serious issue. Effectively we're at the glass ceiling and a slight reduction in prestige is forcing us to consider visiting the pawn shop.
A far better system, if they're intent on keeping rent is to make all the plots free and base the rent solely on the plot size; you know, the way rent works in the real world. And not have it dependent on what stuff you have or how much prestige you have in the bank (or whatever).
With the new telepad functionality we'd like to get telepads to every zone but that's not looking possible despite being one of the biggest (prestige rich) SGs on Defiant. I can only imagine the problems smaller SGs will face.
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The title may be a bit melodramatic but I really am concerned about the future of raids and bases in general on CoH so thought it may be worthwhile discussing things.
The biggest concern I have is that as an SG get's older and older, the simple mathematical fact is that base rent is going to go up and up. Your SG worth can only go up and as your rent is a % of that, you're in trouble.
Paired up with the fact that the rate a group earns prestige at may go up during the early period of an SG life but sooner or later it will start declining(people hitting 50, SG hitting member cap, etc). The end result is that the bigger your VG/SG, the sooner you're going to hit the point where rent overtakes your ability to earn and instead of your prestige going up, it will start going down.
It's actually going to be a pretty sad day when you see SG's having to sell stuff off just to pay the rent or bases shutting down as they can't pay the rent.
I know we have the 25% prestige increase to look forward to but that's just going to compound the problem. You're earning 25% more prestige so your SG worth(and rent) is just going up 25% quicker.
Hopefully, Dr Death can flesh out some of my worries as the highest prestige earning group around. I'm sure he keeps a good record of how much prestige comes in each week and how much rent is so may be able to tell us how long until he reaches the point where rent overtakes prestige.
The sad thing is that the end result of of being highest prestige earners about is that people don't really want to raid them anymore as the defences in there tear most raiders apart before they even zone [img]/uk/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
I don't actually pay too much attention in my VG to how much we're earning in a week or what our base rent actually is each cycle, I just tend to look at how much prestige we have available. Even so, I have noticed our prestige pool is not growing anywhere near as quick as it used to as our rent escalates. The recent prestige award actually seems to have hilighted the problem more as the rent payment increase after that was very noticeable.
I also know there is talk of tying it to plot size in future but still think this is not going to work. Most groups will really be avoiding upgrading plots as a result of the increased rent cost it generates and we'll still have the case where the rent costs on the bigger plots simply can't be covered by even the most active of SG's.
It also strikes me as ridiculous that groups who have put in the work to earn the prestige for plot upgrades will actually end up avoiding taking those upgrades. Surely that defeats the whole point of bases?
I'm also in the process of arranging a cross server base raid on the test server at the moment(details in the PvP section for those who want to sign up). My main concern there is that if I design a base on there ahead of the raid to give us adequate time to get a workable base, what happens if we get hit by a rent payment on test? I'm thinking that all htat time spent designing it will actually leave you with a base that can only be used once as the rent on a 36 million SG will be crippling?
One thing I would be interested in knowing is if anyone knows exactly how rent is worked out? I know it's a percentage of SG worth but does anyone know the exact figure?
Of course, I could be over reacting and doom mongering here so the views of others would be appreciated.