not important enough?... I wouldn't say a MM with a nice mez protect field and pets isn't important..had a hard time fighting you:P
Still, he's not as important as a healer, or a controlling char (cont/dom) IMO. Especially when you imagine a risk/defense value, Dr Death ranks rather low. (moderate/low risk, moderate/high defense) While a healer or a dom has no defenses (or few anyways) and definetely presents a great risk, one of those would rank higher.
Ofcourse with a def debuffer on your team, an FF MM's defense would collapse, and he'd be one of the main targets IMO 
i only took part in one battle last nigth but having the team orgonised behind you all taking downt he same target at th sae time worked well
it also comfirmed somthing ive ben working on myself i have a sueper strenth/ stone brute and ive had a few problems getting him perfect for pvp maily due to speed or lack there off and when i use my best defence my attack rate gos thru the floor but i was in a team with a kinetic cor last night and when buffed it solved all of my problems rather effectively.
There isnt a problem on earth that cant be solved with the proper aplication of hi explosive's
Darklords of the Underworld/Lords of Light forums [url="http://www.armleg.com/dlotu"]www.armleg.com/dlotu[/url]
Scotlands Bru ill/emp troller lvl 50
Monster Bru SS/stone brute lvl 50
Carman thugs/dark mm lvl 50
Your welcome Bru :P
I'd also like to add that I like Dr. Death's idea of using an MM as targetter. It's true that one of the many roles an MM can take is a rather passive one (especially an FF one), running a [censored] of buffing auras and using few attacks. This would certainly give him plenty of time to be a targetter.
Alright so healing is a problem for villains. This means that for serious PvPing, healers are needed. Let's take a look at our options.
Before I continue, Kinslayer, are you ok with us discussing this here, or do you want me to open a new thread in the PvP forum? Will post it here for now, but let me know and I'll move it.
The most obvious choice would be a /thermal corruptor, undoubtedly. With an area and singletarget heal, neither having a tohit, they are probably the best option. However let's look at some other stuff nonetheless.
There's kinetics corruptors, who have (I think) the most powerfull area heal. Personally tho, I think it's of limited use. It works great to heal yourself (I would know), but to heal others is hard. In general ranged types need the most healing, and they SHOULDNT be near their enemies. If they are, they should be there for just a second to launch their attack. Therefore an target-area heal is somewhat useless.
Then we have the radiation set, which has an area heal just as powerfull as thermal's I think. That's it tho, and IMO this set is too weak to do serious healing.
How about Dark then? It has an area heal nearly as powerfull as kinetic's, and its Personbased, which already makes it a lot better then transfusion.
Looking at herobuilder, it seems the MM version of the dark heal is even more powerfull. As a matter of fact, it heals a good deal more then the kinetics heal.
Would /dark be a viable way to heal players? If so, it could actually shift the function of healer to the MM, allowing the corruptor to focus more on (de)buffing. Or would a decent PvP team be forced to a /thermal corruptor? Ofcourse Dark's tohit is a big downside.
And just a random thought, aid other from the medicine pool. If slotted with 3 interrupt reduxes and 3 heal enhances, could this work?
Fine to be discussed here as it makes it easier with all the info in one place.
OK, had a look at your post now and here's my comments.
Thermal
Definitely the most versatile and I think a thermal should be included in all villain teams TBH. Not only are the heals good but with shields, buffs and debuffs, it's a very good all rounder and forge is probably the best mez resist on the CoV side
Dark
This is one I've been toying with and I've looked into having a 'pure' dark MM who skips the primary pool entirely and concentrates on the buff/debuff side. Really not sure how viable this is but it's one I'd love to see tested. With a free respec coming up, are there any high level /darks who'd be willing to test this out on the test server?
Kinetics
the heal on these guys really doesn't seem viable for PvP. Getting near the enemies when you need healing just seemes like suicide. Despite that, Kin's are a must for a villain team to keep the brutes end going.
Medicine Pool
Not even worth considering. PvP is all about mobility and the animation times on these are a killer.
No matter which way I look at it, Villains one strength seems to be Corruptors when fighting heroes.
healing isn't essential if u can get ur team good at being able to look after themselves, i give my team buffs and rarely have to heal them as they can look after themselves
Hmmm...what buffs would these be?
And how do your teammates look after themselves?
I'd be very interested to hear alternatives to healing (I'm not ready to accept every team needs a /thermal :P), but so far we haven't seem to run into a villain combination that pulls it off. Doens't mean it's not there tho.
when i first started preparing my stone brute for pvp i quickly relised that my best back up was a kin cor. the idea was the buff me i head in the stay safe and use target heal on my target to keep me standing not realy had a chance to try this in pvp however i have managed it in pve a few times and its all i need to take out AV's and heros alike solo.
so my basic point is i think each type of healer is more geared towords giving another spasific AT back up, a kinetic would be good for a team relyingon its brutes for the work but mayge a thermer and or dark would be good for a team relying on mms doms and maybe stalkers as well
but as for your dark idea i dont have an all out dark mm its mercs/dark and about lvl 23 at the moment im willing to mess about with it just gimi a shout ad let me know what your after
There isnt a problem on earth that cant be solved with the proper aplication of hi explosive's
Darklords of the Underworld/Lords of Light forums [url="http://www.armleg.com/dlotu"]www.armleg.com/dlotu[/url]
Scotlands Bru ill/emp troller lvl 50
Monster Bru SS/stone brute lvl 50
Carman thugs/dark mm lvl 50
i have to agrea with x_treme on this one.. for a PvP-team to be at the top of its performance and be as deadly as possible, u cant have 1 or 2 team-mates focusing on buffs/heals/debuffs. in my old days as an Empath, i could make a team invincible in PvE, but the amount of time and concentration this took, made me more or less passive combat-wise. in PvE this works, coz the Empath dont get aggro, but in PvP they do.
To be effective and alert in PvP, i feel that applying personal bubbs is enough hassle, since team often spreads and moves fast, hunting for targets. 1 or 2 targeted buffs is in my experience (plz correct me if im wrong) the maximum amount u want to waste time with. i would imagine that thermal, sonic, Ice Domination and FF is the 'defending' set of villains choice. not healers, but as a delayer-of-death AT. A brute with +res buffs or a stalker with +Def, sounds wicked to me. the focus on healers is a bit too much i think. it dont matter if u die, as long as u take down a few kills of ur own, before u do. perhaps we should focus mor on trying to boost the killrate of the team, instead of teh survival rate.
regarding Dark MM:
Dont have a dark MM, but played a dark/dark defender, and i can say that the heal sux in PvP. long animation that immobilize the healer, not good at all. the debuffs are awesome tho for PvP. not sure its as effective when enemy keeps moving fast around and u cant really use the cones and AoEs.. but an additional hold and fear is always nice for PvP. perhaps a more controller type of */dark MM is to prefer?
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Hmmm...what buffs would these be?
And how do your teammates look after themselves?
I'd be very interested to hear alternatives to healing (I'm not ready to accept every team needs a /thermal :P), but so far we haven't seem to run into a villain combination that pulls it off. Doens't mean it's not there tho.
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basically whatever set u go with keep the team buffed with all shields and mes protecct powers u have available, thats mostly what i do and sometimes they need heals but most of the time they can look after themselves, the simplest way to do this is to no exactly when to run, defense is the best offense cos if u aint dying u cant lose
was gonna put this in my sig bu its too long 
think this sums up PvP perfectly:
"Every morning in Africa, a Gazelle wakes up. It knows it must run faster than the fastest lion or it will be killed. Every morning a Lion wakes up. It knows it must outrun the slowest Gazelle or it will starve to death. It doesn't matter whether you are a Lion or a Gazelle... when the sun comes up, you'd better be running"
I'm a /kin. My only (simple) buffs are ID and SB...especially the latter is awesome, true, but it does little to increase survivability of the team, it only increases killrate. I suppose ID can be slotted for dmg resist, but this will only be against energy/smashing, and since it lasts 60 secs I will spend all the match re-buffing my team. That's a Bad Thing, since a corruptor is supposed to be dealing damage as well :P
I'm still curious as to your buffing powerset, because I really do think it matters :P
Anyways, moving onward, I've heard several people claim heals aren't a necessity, buffs are. Alright then. I ask you this: Which buffs? (this question is similar to my last, but now I'm not asking X in particular, I'm asking which villain buffs do you think work)
i play empath most of the time but i also play a kin too, SB and ID are awesome, SB will completely negate all slows that can be used on ur team as well as end recovery, ID gives mes protection, stopping ur team being held, and stops knockback and allows ur team to walk through bubbles, whirlwind etc...
With these two buffs ur team wud do very well with u just buffing them, if u cud give them inertial reduction they have free unsuppressed travel power. It is at this point that ur teams individual skills need to be worked on, with SB, ID and possibly IR there is very little that can stop them running so if they're dying a lot there tactics need working on.
Similarly other team mates can help too, one very effective tactic is getting ur brute to perma taunt people, try playing against Max Powerz as a killer and see how many kills u get, hes vvery annoying lol
Off the top of my head, i'd say defensive buffs are a must in the form of shields and mez protection.
Thaw is probably the standout power for mez protection and a thermal has the shields as well plus the most 'user friendly' heals which is why I still think a */Thermal is a must for most PvP teams. Coupled up with Forge and the 2 debuffs(though the long animation on Melt armour makes it risky), I wouldn't even bother with the primary for a PvP thermal. Essentially, they will be nothing more than a buff bot so for a PvP build, I'd try stealth powers with them to escape as much attention as possible.
The one thing i'm never really sure of in PvP is how the priorities go in terms of defence buffs, offence buffs and debuffs.
I'd guess they go pretty much in the order I listed above. As it's been pretty much agreed that villain pentad teams are at a huge disadvantage, for a 5 man team I would take three corruptors in the form of Thermal, Kinetics and Ice. I'd probably like them all to have ice primary as well purely for the first hold. All three hitting a single target with it during breaks in buffing/debuffing should give some mez breaking holds.
The final two spots would then be taken up with damage dealers in the form of brutes and stalkers. Not sure which combination I would take though.
Given the resonable buffs they receive in I7, I would also be tempted to drop the Ice Corruptor for a Dom of some sort.
The one thing I've noticed about villain PvP compared to the hero side is a more cavalier attitude to buffing on our side. Looking at the recent PvP tournament and the groups that done well like Shaman X and AOW, they seemed to be a lot more rigid in their buffs, particularly with the anti mez and shield ones. I know that before watching the tournament, I only used the shields in my set when it was convenient and spent more of my time trying to debuff and kill but I've learnt to be a bit more controlled about it now.
Seeing how we bought the brutes to a shuddering halt in the Corruptor Vs Brute match on Tuesday was quite an eye opener and has also shown me a slight hole in my Ice/Ice build. With mez protection being the real killer for Corruptors, I've realised that snow storm may not be as effective as I thought. It was getting dropped quite a bit as it's a toggle so I was either getting stunned, held or killed as soon as I put it up or was having to run and go evasive, meaning it dropped as soon as I was out of range. A real shame as it's a killer move but very difficult to keep it going to make a real difference.
One question I would like to ask about snow storm though. in PvE, it affects the target and those around him. In PvP it only seemed to be affecting the target himself. Can anyone who was on the receiving confirm this?
i couldnt say 100% but im pretty sure it affects those around the target but they have to be reasonably close which isnt really going to happen as people with snow storm will usually run, i no i've flown past a target who is snow stormed many times and it drops my fly for about half a second while i fly past
Snow Storm works differently for corrs than for defs/trollers. I dont know if this is a bug or WAI but the -fly only works if you're reasonably close to the target.
SingStar:
"Extremists LOVE to fish to get us annoyed so we break the forum rules."
CRACK68:
"The origin of life wasn't planned either, should all life be declared a bug and wiped out?"
Lionsbane:
"You know me.Ever the realist"
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"Every morning in Africa, a Gazelle wakes up. It knows it must run faster than the fastest lion or it will be killed. Every morning a Lion wakes up. It knows it must outrun the slowest Gazelle or it will starve to death. It doesn't matter whether you are a Lion or a Gazelle... when the sun comes up, you'd better be running"
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I would say that this actually nails the PvP-tactics with focused acc + buildup + aim (er.. ok.. i need to play CoX less)
to answer toughguy, i can say that empaths have, if not the best, atleast very, very powerfull buffs, and id be suprised if X_treme dont use tem all.. each of one of tehm will turn any player to a killing machine 
here is some buffs comparison Hero (Empath) vs Villain (Thermal)
Clear Mind powerfull resist to mez and great boost to perception. 1 question tho to X, sicne hes got PvP experience on his Emp: will CM protect(or reduce) against toggle drop in PvP, just as in PvE?
Thaw: 30 secs less active time, but will compensate with resist to slow(!!) and that kinda makes up for it imo.
Fortitude: by PvE measuers, this power will really simulate u 1 lvl higher. boosting dmg, acc and def alot. (and with 3 membrane exposures HOs, u can buff it +3 def, +3 tohit, +3 recharge and if i remember correct that will be enough to keep it perma on 3 allies) this power is really awesome.
Forge: will not boost def, but will greatly increase dmg and acc alot more than fort. s i guess its pretty even.
Recovery/Regen Aura: Since Attackrate isnt as constant in PvP, as in PvE, im not sure of the advantage, but it is a massive End-buff that will make team unable to loose end. Regen aura on the other hand will boost the regen rate alot (depends on slotting), and this will really take alot of healing-needs away.
Heat Exhaustion: -regen, -End recovery, -dmg. ive seen this power used verywell in 1 on 1 PvP, and its a killer. Brutes/stalkers/tanks/scrappers are dead as fast as hit with this.. the only way i (almost) survived it was by turning off all shields and select my attacks very catiously.. wasnt enough tho =P really feels like the counter part to empaths regen/rec auras.
Adrenalin Boost: +end, +regen, boosted recharge.. in combo with fortitude, this power will make a blaster/scrapper/tank a vicious killer tahts more or less unstoppable.
Melt Armor: strong -res, -def. combined with heat exhaustion, the target is dead ina few secs. 1 downside here could be that empaths here has buffs, while villains have debuffs, which means u have to hit, so tactics for the corr is needed alot (or alot of +acc insps).
Sum up.. Empaths work as X-treme said.. if u run, u cant die, and empaths prevent deaths. Villains seems overall to have a diff method (im sure its intended for balance) and that is: Its ok to die, as long as u kill more in the process.
Heroes are built to not die, villains are built to kill.. the classic hunter-prey relation. even tho the Gazelle wont get caught, he cant kill the lion. im pretty sure that 2 equally skilled teams would result in villain victory. why? coz all ATs in CoV deals massive dmg. even the doms and MMs can mount up alot more dmg than any troller or defender.
just a couple of things to add to ur post:
CM protects against fear whereas iirc thaw doesnt.
Fort gives 30% to acc, dmg and def, Forge give 100% acc and 75% dmg.
R Auras can be rarely given out to multiple playrs in battle, i use them more to keep myself alive than others.
If u caan fit it in Rise of the pheonix could have very effective situational uses whereas resurrect has none.
And i agree with your conclusion
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Clear Mind powerfull resist to mez and great boost to perception. 1 question tho to X, sicne hes got PvP experience on his Emp: will CM protect(or reduce) against toggle drop in PvP, just as in PvE?
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CM doesn't stop toggle dropping but it stops stuns, same as thaw, so it will protect allies toggles dropping due to stuns but it doesnt protect against toggle drop powers
Interesting theory about the heroes winning by staying alive and villains winning by killing more than dying which brings me to one point.
In a straight AT V AT comparision, villains will deal more damage overall. However, one thing we seem to lack is the straight 'off the bat' damage output that heroes have. Also worth noting that when you get too experienced PvP arena teams together, kill counts are actually quite low, showing that not dying is probably a lot easier than killing at the top levels.
Brute - High damage but takes a while to build up
Stalker - Very High damage but also extremely situational and can be countered.
Corruptor - High damage but as the only real buff/debuff AT available should we be concentrating on offence?
MM - Almost no practical offence in PvP as a restul of the long set up time
Dominator - Higher damage than a troller but still too low to rely on. I'd rather have the extra 'hold' power of a troller than the feeble damage boost they get instead.
For me, that leaves brutes as the only real conventional damage dealer for villains. Given the choice between a brute or scrapper, I'd go scrapper every time.
Stalkers are great but just too situational and, against exeprienced PvP players, too easy to counter. The one main advantage I see for villains is the stupidly high damage cap for brutes. The problem is keeping them up long enough and buffed well enough to actually reach that.
Could the villain tactics be best suited to letting a stalker operate almost seperate from the rest of the team while having 3 Corruptors buffing the brute and debuffing his targets? Almost seems a bit too 'single point of failure' for me.
While I know Brute's damage caps are high, I have no idea how much higher they are than blasters or scrappers and how easy it is to buff them enough to blast those others away?
IIRC, brute damage cap is 850%, while blasters cap out at 500%
I suspect the I7 changes should help a lot with pentad too, as MMs should be more effective at getting going, and dominators add yet more pain. Plus my favourite bit of news. Fury. Fixed. For. PvP.
You know, I've been thinking a bit today about our corruptor vs brute match. You getting mezzed was my failure as a buffer, and I need to work on this.
Anyways, the reason I had trouble fighting the brutes was their mez effects. Even when I didn't get disoriented, I was a little reluctant while fighting, because they COULD disorient me. Your corruptor lacking a mez buff is really a big downside when you team with a corruptor (nothing you can help however, it simply isn't in your set).
So, I was thinking, 2 /kins corruptors. Both get SBed and IDed. This means they are ultra-fast, protected against mez, and they have a ridiculous selfheal making them tough to kill. I'm quite confident that /kins are very hard to kill, as long as they have mez protection. Even WITH disorients, energy melee brutes have difficulties killing me if I play it right. (yes, transfusion really is that powerfull)
I would be HIGHLY interested to duo with another /kin corruptor this tuesday, fighting 2 brutes or 2 other corrs, and see how we do.
I think it would be a pretty powerfull combo.
Also, X, you think IR is usefull in PvP? Won't it suffer your aura problems? (not getting it on the team)
To me its all swings and roundabouts. Ultimately it depends on what ATs you are fighting. For example if it was 2 non energy brute (secondary power) then I reckon 2 thermal corruptors would be able to tear them apart. You also have to remember that most of the toons taking part have not been completly designed for PvP so are missing out on being fully optimised. I know my corruptor could do with another respec to rejig and change a couple of powers.
When my corruptor took part in the practise I dont think it painted a clear picture. Unfortunatly his inspiration tray is stocked full of big inspirations of which I didnt really want to get rid of. Thus spent most of the fight mez'd (but easily countered with break frees). This added with the fact that most builds are not optimised surely makes making generalisations about the effectiveness of powers and combinations quite misleading/biased.
Heros
Max Powerz: Lv 50 Tanker
Villains
Max Khaos: Lv 50
Overlord of E.V.I.L.
My Brute - http://maxy-khaos.mybrute.com/
LF SG! Arc ID# 193083
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As I said during the training, it makes it very important to have 1 person who targets enemies, and that the entire team listens to him carefully. It's hard to do the targetting properly however, IMO, especially if your one of the squishier chars. Ideally, you'd have a stalker at the stealth cap roaming through the battle doing the targetting.
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not sure about the overall oppinion, but i think i handled that particulary task pretty well... i felt i had a good view of the battle and chose targets with love =P
seriously.. i think i see the MMs role a bit better at this point.. i dont use much of powers only my KB at this point, and with the pets up, i had an auto-fire on, enabling me to focus on targets and battle (while the pets did my fighting), instead of actually hitting targets.. perhaps boosted with medic-pool, the villains teams can get that extra heal from a person who focus on team-stats and targeting, and not take precious attention away from teh dmg-dealers...
as Kosmos also pointed out, i was too hard to hit, and not important enough to kill, and that helped me alot when it came to concentration regarding team.. and face it.. MMs do have alot of experience when it comes to direct fire and selecting targets while eluding attacks and hide in the corner
its prety hard to give good reflections of this tho, since its really the team that can rate this the best.. so feel free to comment on this, u that teamed with me.
Ice was very efficient as well.. slow and -fly is really a pain sometimes both when running away from death, and when chasing targets.. so Ice Doms using powerboost would be hell, with the nice dmg they possess (note: on test server now, doms have 6% more dmg on their melee attacks)
Good fun overall.. and glad we had a few heroes to join in as well.. lets keep this going =)