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I realise that Max, but I still want to keep the discussions going on what might be good sets for PvP. Since very few of us want to spec into pvp builds pre-50 (I dont either), this is the best source of information. I agree that with specialised PvP chars the discussion would be better, but that doesn't make it useless at this point.
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I understand that totally and dont think talking about it does any harm. It raises awareness and possible ideas amongst other things so is a good thing 
. However was just trying to put across the point that results are tainted to some degree due to mainly having PvE builds and PvE players. I think this was highlighted abit when you had a match between 2 stalkers and 2 brutes. The brutes won 7:3 or something. However, I brought along my pvp stalker and teamed with another and we kicked the poor brutes [censored]'s.
I think where I am going with this is that we should be using these workshops foremostly as training sessions and not what works best (as we dont have the experience and the proper builds to make proper judgements currently). Dont take this as nothing can be learned and no good comes out of it. Its just that there is a world of difference between a PvP build and player against a PvE build and player.
Heros
Max Powerz: Lv 50 Tanker
Villains
Max Khaos: Lv 50
Overlord of E.V.I.L.
My Brute - http://maxy-khaos.mybrute.com/
LF SG! Arc ID# 193083
This is undeniable ofcourse. Nonetheless, my char has taken all but 1 power from each of his AT sets, simply because he could skip a travelpower. Now I can see by now that not having a travelpower is actually a very bad thing in PvP, but it still lets me experiment with a great deal of my primary and secondary powers.
I can tell by now that no kinetic will ever be a decent PvP healer :P (then again, who couldnt)
By no means am I suggesting that whatever is thought of here will be the best idea we will ever have. But we're gonna have to start somewhere. PvP builds will have to evolve from PvE builds, and workshops like this are a very good way to do this.
Anyways this discussion is really shifting away from what it's supposed to be about.
I think Ice/Thermal (I think Kin mentioned this) is probably one of the better ideas for a PvP corruptor. In his secondary he gets an excellent mix of buffs, debuffs and heals. In his primary he gets slows, 2 holds and probably the best burst damage of any corr primary. Definetely a lot of potential.
I'm kind of glad we're getting PvE builds turning up as it's (hopefully) showing them the good side of PvP.
further along the line though, once we see who's turning up regularly and know who has PvP optimised builds, we can start being a little more structured in the testing.
May be an idea to list in advance, any particular ideas to try out in this thread so we can try and make sure we have the optimised PvP builds turn up to test it?
Well the good thing about it is it is reaching out to those that would like to give it ago or atleast experience it. I am hoping if we can keep the momentum going that more and more people will take an interest and give it ago. We just have to keep getting more and more people on board spreading the word of these workshops/sessions.
One thing I am wondering though is all the testing that is going on, is it to readdress the balance between heroes vs villains or to improve villains vs villains?
Heros
Max Powerz: Lv 50 Tanker
Villains
Max Khaos: Lv 50
Overlord of E.V.I.L.
My Brute - http://maxy-khaos.mybrute.com/
LF SG! Arc ID# 193083
actually, MMs and Doms are very strong, if built/played correct. I played my MM a bit diff this time, almost ignoring the pets, only upgrading the assault bot, more or less. They arent the main dmg-dealers in the team, thats correct, but they are great at finnishing off injured players. i always (if teams a even) end up by the top 3 killers, no coz i deal heavy dmg, but i steal other ppls kills (atleast thats what im suspecting). Pets are fast and wont suffer human weaknesses of battle confusion and disorientation (we all loose sight and direction during fights sometimes, pets dont) and long range attacks with alot of DoTs makes them hard to escape from. I was totally ignoring buffing/upgrading my pets and didnt spend much time setting up, more to buff team. and it worked great.
Doms can be very strong as well... i have a grav/fire dom and has fiery embrace set to auto, this gives me about 40% of the time a 100% dmg buff, making my max-dmg potential very high. deals more than 320 dmg with FE+Dom with Blaze (a toggle knocker in i7 as well ) My DPS is really high and im pretty sure (havent proven it) that my Dom is far more destructive than my blaster-built corr (energy/kin). add the massive dmg-buff from forge and the Dom will be really evil. and since Domination is easier to build up in i7, this would also enable them to get Dom in PvP (i hope lol) and that means 1 hit to penetrate any mez-toggles (except granite), and we can only hope it also overrides powers like thaw and CM lol.
and btw, i made a sonic/Thermal corr yesterday to see if it cant be just as strong (or stronger) for a team as an EMpath. he should be PvP-ready in 3-4 weeks. i7 is the reason for the long time, and i feel i need to lvl up my main+base raid toon 1st =P
Yup, I also think posting ideas for the next workshop in advance could be a good idea. Only if we have such ideas tho :P
As I stated before, I would very much like to try a duo with another /kin corr. Mind you, this corr would need at least ID, SB and some damaging attacks. (ie. not a lvl 20 one :P)
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One thing I am wondering though is all the testing that is going on, is it to readdress the balance between heroes vs villains or to improve villains vs villains?
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Well, my original idea was to create a team of villains capable of giving heroes a run for their money.
I didn't really want to open it up to heroes too early until I saw what sort of turn out we got and to prevent villains getting regularly pwned and discouraged as a result.
I think this weeks one showed we can get the numbers though to make opening it up to heroes a bit more feasible.
I'll stick a post on the Union Heroes forum to try and encourage some of them to turn up.
what are ppls opinions on how the mm shud play? im toying with the idea of completely dropping all primary powers and playing as a dark defender, this wud free up more powers to keep myself alive which is a huge problem as a mm
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what are ppls opinions on how the mm shud play? im toying with the idea of completely dropping all primary powers and playing as a dark defender, this wud free up more powers to keep myself alive which is a huge problem as a mm
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That's exactly what I've been thinking of. Actually looking for a lvl 40 */dark MM who's willing to try a Secondary only build out on test to see how effective it is.
Is there much point in doing this - given the big PvP changes in Issue 7?
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what are ppls opinions on how the mm shud play? im toying with the idea of completely dropping all primary powers and playing as a dark defender, this wud free up more powers to keep myself alive which is a huge problem as a mm
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That's exactly what I've been thinking of. Actually looking for a lvl 40 */dark MM who's willing to try a Secondary only build out on test to see how effective it is.
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i'd try this but im only 37, i find the late 30s very boring so levelling quite slow 
my current PvP build has 6 dark powers so i will try playing as a dark defender among other tactics on tuesdays practise, hard to practise a mm in zones cos the pets just aggro NPCs and die so they're pointless 
i've also tried group fly but u have to keep stopping or the pets don't keep up, the -acc wasnt too much of a prob but when u attack they all seperate so group fly for pets gets the thumbs down imo
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what are ppls opinions on how the mm shud play? im toying with the idea of completely dropping all primary powers and playing as a dark defender, this wud free up more powers to keep myself alive which is a huge problem as a mm
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cant say i agrea on this. the fact that MMs dont stay alive in general is most likely due to lack of movement-skill. at 1st i (as many other MMs) tried to make the AoE-buffs work in PvP, which was a mistake. a squishie cant stand still without using any type of travel against skilled players. Last week showed me that i can stull use he pets as a 2ndary objective (spawn them, butdont waste more than 30 secs buffing them) and only use them as additional firepower. i had their 'Attack' command macrod in with my teams targetting statement, which sent the pets to attack the teams target. I died in general 3-4 times/match (which is alot better than the other squishies we met) and had alot of kills.
I agrea on focusing on 2ndary set, but dont drop the primary. the boosted recharge to upgrades in i7 willallow the MM to use the lvl 32 upgrade on 3 pets, instead of 1 as now. (for robot MMs this is a huge boost, since u can upgrade to AoE rockets on the assault bot and both protector buts get their AoE-Stunn attack which has proven very usefull against 90% of the squishies)
Im not sure on */Dark being the best selection either. The Heal is slow and suicidal in PvP. req. a tohit roll for success. tar patch is usefull tho.. so is darkest night (AoE -acc), fearsome stare (cone fear) and petrifying gaze (hold). here is the diff sets combared by effects:
Dark Maisma: +Heal, -speed, -res, -tohit, -dmg, -acc, +hold, +Fear
Force Field: Strong +Def, +Knockback, +disorient, +res to mez
Traps: -fly,+immobilize, -recharge
Poison: -def, -res, -recharge, -speed, +mez resist (whole team res, even the corr), res to slow, strongest Holds (if the info i got is correct). a good set of PvP-debuffs, that could help the team alot.. still unsure tho if debuffs are the way to go.
Trick Arrow: +imobilize, -fly, -acc, -visibility, -recharge, -speed, -dmg, weak hold, -def, -res, +AoE-Knockback. again alot of debuffs.
most sets has alot of effects, cept for FF and traps, tho theese are the 2 i see might wotk good in PvP. traps has webgranade whith -fly, -jump, -recharge, speed and will spite alot of ppl. 2nd power id choose for PvP is detonator. finally a good use of pets lol.. spawn a pet, grant invis, and send him to the controller. dunno the strength of this, but if it can kill/disorient it wouldbe wicked. FF has personal bubbs (loved by all melee) and alot o diff KB's. the ranged AoE toggle knocker (i7) should be handy as well. in my case i find the +Def adding up to the rest of my Def-powers good, making me a very hard target for ATs that lack buildup, rage, aim. this is prolly 1 importan reason to why i survive very good in PvP.
ive been thinking of my upcomming Team-PvP corr, and i have a few questions, and was hoping to get experienced feedback.
Travel:
SS: good PvP-travel for squishies to outrun ppl that intend to kill me.
SJ: -immobilize(CJ) -KB(Acro) -mez(acro) are very, very good in PvP to have. especially since im the mez-protecor, and cant buff myself.
TP: safest/fastest (?) way to escape death. very clumsy.
Fly: major control, adding 3rd dimension to travel, elusive against many, unless u cant fly, u cant really kill a flyer.
my plan at this point is to get SJ (only for resitans in CJ and Acro) + SS for speed. i would also be able to add fly (since its my fav travel) at lvl 50. can acro/CJ be run simultaniously as fly? if not im thinking of TP for escaping tarpatch,webgrenade and similar
powers:
Dreadful Wail: is the Nova-like attacks usefull in PvP?
Whirlwind: would this help keeping me alive while buffing team? or isnt it effective enough?
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my plan at this point is to get SJ (only for resitans in CJ and Acro) + SS for speed. i would also be able to add fly (since its my fav travel) at lvl 50. can acro/CJ be run simultaniously as fly? if not im thinking of TP for escaping tarpatch,webgrenade and similar
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SS+SJ is probably the best travelpower combo for PvP, since you can still move around with slows on you if you can jump. Also, hasten and Acrobatics are incredibly useful. Yes, you can run Acrobatics and CJ at the same time as fly but it won't protect you from any -fly affects that get put on you. I wouldn't have it, but many others would. Oh, and don't take Acrobatics for the hold res. One controller will hit straight through it with one hold.
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Dreadful Wail: is the Nova-like attacks usefull in PvP?
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No. AoEs generally are not very good in PvP, and nukes are even worse.
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Whirlwind: would this help keeping me alive while buffing team? or isnt it effective enough?
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Whirlwind is useless now. It would've been useful if it kept you unrooted, but it really isn't any more since the repel affect doesn't seem to actually do anything.
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my plan at this point is to get SJ (only for resitans in CJ and Acro) + SS for speed. i would also be able to add fly (since its my fav travel) at lvl 50. can acro/CJ be run simultaniously as fly? if not im thinking of TP for escaping tarpatch,webgrenade and similar
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SS+SJ is probably the best travelpower combo for PvP, since you can still move around with slows on you if you can jump. Also, hasten and Acrobatics are incredibly useful. Yes, you can run Acrobatics and CJ at the same time as fly but it won't protect you from any -fly affects that get put on you. I wouldn't have it, but many others would. Oh, and don't take Acrobatics for the hold res. One controller will hit straight through it with one hold.
[/ QUOTE ] i personally think fly is awesome in PvP although u have to have SS or SJ as well for when u are -fly but i've only ever played one person who made -fly a problem for a considerable part of the match
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Dreadful Wail: is the Nova-like attacks usefull in PvP?
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No. AoEs generally are not very good in PvP, and nukes are even worse.
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with elecs thunderous blast being the exception
thx for the tips, tho regarding acro, the KB-res is good reason enough for picking it, and it really have a good effect resisting holds.. Doms wont (might not be true to MC, but the rest) hold u in 1 hit, and even when trollers do hold u, its only for an instant, enabling u to escape death =)
was kinda suspecting nukes wouldnt be strong enough.. good to get it confirmed.
And i also find fly as one of the best travels in PvP, due to the 3D-dynamic.. and i rarely gets killed due to -fly, but still want SS for fast escapes when needed and res slow.
ty for the input =)
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and since Domination is easier to build up in i7, this would also enable them to get Dom in PvP (i hope lol) and that means 1 hit to penetrate any mez-toggles
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You will still need at least 2 hits of a hold to break most mez resists. One ST hold with Domination = mag6 which will not hold any scrapper or tank, acrobatics adds +1 mag to your resist. You need at least mag8 to hold a scrapper, so 3 standard holds (9) or 2 with Domination (12).
Dominator holds (without domination) are the same magnitude as controller holds .
hmm.. interesting.. im not saying ur wrong in anyway, but i had real situations that contredict thoose stats a bit...
no problems holding an invul tank with gravity distortion (which ofcourse is a bit stronger than most holds) whith 1 hit and domination. (slotted with 1 hold duration, incase that makes any diff)
same attack failed to hold alot of diff ATs (without domination) that used acrobatics and no break frees or other mez-res buffs.
im guessing Dispersion bubble has about the same res-strength as acrobatics (assumption) and it can withstand 1 regular hold like char or block of ice.
is there a post (or other) where all the Mag-stats can be read?
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no problems holding an invul tank with gravity distortion (which ofcourse is a bit stronger than most holds)
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Erm, no it's not.
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same attack failed to hold alot of diff ATs (without domination) that used acrobatics and no break frees or other mez-res buffs.
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Acrobatics allows you to resist ONE non-controller/dominator hold.
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im guessing Dispersion bubble has about the same res-strength as acrobatics (assumption) and it can withstand 1 regular hold like char or block of ice.
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Dispersion Bubble resists 2 holds, iirc. The third one will go through and hold you.
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hmm.. interesting.. im not saying ur wrong in anyway, but i had real situations that contredict thoose stats a bit...
no problems holding an invul tank with gravity distortion (which ofcourse is a bit stronger than most holds) whith 1 hit and domination. (slotted with 1 hold duration, incase that makes any diff)
same attack failed to hold alot of diff ATs (without domination) that used acrobatics and no break frees or other mez-res buffs.
im guessing Dispersion bubble has about the same res-strength as acrobatics (assumption) and it can withstand 1 regular hold like char or block of ice.
is there a post (or other) where all the Mag-stats can be read?
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The thing is, your 'real' situation was one in which you probably didn't know the exact status of your opponent, UY may not have been running at all, he may have already had some hold on him and you stacked another hold so breaking UY, and so on.
The best way to test these things is with someone you know without any fight going on around you that way you prevent unknown factors from influencing your attacks, otherwise you'll get misleading information. A stalker recently told me Issue 7 had nerfed Ninjitsu mez resist, because "on live I can take up to 14 holds" - that's a strength of 42, twice as strong as Granite, all of that came from his 'real' experience in Siren's - completely barmy.
All Controller and Dominator single target Holds have the same magnitude - 3. Sometimes a controller will critical their hold and get a mag of 4, running Domination a dominator's holds become mag 6. AoE holds also have a mag of 3.
One exception I can think of is Telekinesis which has a much higher mag than usual - not sure what this is.
Some of these things have been talked about here.
thx for the info, it explains alot.
Hmm bugger, it turns out I can't make it this tuesday. Would still like to try the /kin duo a week later however. Have fun guys!
So how did this go?
A bit poor last night in terms of learning TBH.
We had a reasonable turnout but a very thing spread of AT's with not a single dominator there. Had a couple of people complaining when we were capping levels at the level of the lowest member.
One guy even though the 8 level difference would make the lowest member a better PvP'er(as opposed to getting continually one shotted by the rest of us )
We also had a problem with mixed hero/villain teams when it just kicked us all from the team as soon as the match started and wouldn't let us mix teams once in there.
I really think that at the moment, it's just going to be about team practice rather than tatical practice until we can get interest up. Once we can guarantee 4 or 5 of every AT each week, then we can start testing a few more things out, as it is, trying to get the exact builds we need along is a bit of a problem.
I realise that Max, but I still want to keep the discussions going on what might be good sets for PvP. Since very few of us want to spec into pvp builds pre-50 (I dont either), this is the best source of information. I agree that with specialised PvP chars the discussion would be better, but that doesn't make it useless at this point.