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but I have just had so much fun playing closet-heroic villains that I wanted to comment.
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And in the end, I guess that's what really counts. If you're having fun doing so, then there should be no problem.
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Totally agree here, but I'd add the rider: So long as your fun doesn't destroy someone else's.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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How is a hero who wants to destroy Arachnos and bring about a benevolent reigeme change in the rogue isles different from a Villain who wants to destroy Arachnos and rule the isles for himself?
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Well, that's the very crux of the matter. To summarise the on-topic posts that were made, and deleted for reasons we shan't go into (because it's pointless rehashing) is that the actions themselves don't matter, as much as the reasoning behind them. Let's say, for example, I give you £100,000, cash in hand, no questions asked.
"Okay" you might say, "Great, FG's a cool guy, I loves me some bling." However, if my reasoning behind that is that I just robbed a bank and wanted to frame you for it, my actions mean absolutely squat next to my intent.
Actually, that's a gross oversimplification of the matter at hand. Let's use, for example...
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An example I think of of a "dark hero" in COV is the snake hunter guy you meet in mercy island, ok he may be doing it for money but he is making the streets of mercy island safe for all the inhabitants by exterminating the eeeevil snakes.
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Now, I don't play CoV. I have it, sure, but that's only for the Supergroup Base access, and in case one day I want to break open a villain to see what's what. I am, incidentally, planning a villain based on my currently stalled story in the creative section (Gratuitous Plug! Read 'Into The Inferno'! ) but other than that, I have no clue as to what's what. I'm guessing, from your description, that this Snake Hunter is a mercenary, or a bounty hunter. Or maybe he earns a special NPC-only badge, who knows? However, although this guy is actually the reverse of my previous analogy, it still holds true. He's collecting (or sending people off to kill?) snakes for money. He may, indeed, be making the Rogue Isles safer for the citizens, but that's just a by-product. His goal, first and foremost, is to earn money. If he could earn more money, safely, by killing the citizens of the Rogue Isles, his character would probably do that. The main thing, in my mind, that seperates Heroes from Villains is that Heroes want to provide X. Let's say that X is, for this example, a safe environment (going back to your Snake Hunter guy). Villains may also want X. Heroes, however, care about how they get to it, whereas Villains will do whatever it takes, no matter the cost. Another thing to bear in mind is that Villains may not actually WANT X, they, instead, want Y, and X is just something that happens along the way. It's a fine line, and that's why, I think, playing a Fallen Hero is such an attractive prospect.
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One issue that has been brought up is that when other characters find out the "hero" character would be killed, but considering the isles are full of constant infighting even within arachnos itself, how would this be worse or different than characters of different groups encountering each other?
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This depends on how the "Hero" dies. Will they die pursuing their goal? Or saving the life of their companions? Syra mentioned, in one of her deleted posts, that one noble act doesn't change all the bad things someone has done in their life, and from an objective viewpoint, that is certainly true. However, subjectively, it could. Let's say, going back to my original example, that I robbed a bank, and ended up killing a security guard or two in the process. I'm now guilty of double homicide and grand theft. If I give my money to a charity, whilst that doesn't make the act of theft and murder 'right', the charity, assuming they didn't find out how I got the money, would think of me as a 'good person'.
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There exists another possibility for a character of "noble" virtues, a dedicated medic/healer who exists to make people whole and well no matter their alignment, sure they might be causing more harm by keeping scum alive but they are still doing good surely?
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Doctors are sworn, first and foremost, to 'do no harm', as part of their Hippocratic Oath. I'm not going to get into a debate into what constitutes 'harm', and whether abortions, euthenasia, etc, should be included, because for starters, that isn't in the scope of this discussion, and secondly, because everyone feels differently about these things, and they can, and will, bring about a whole flurry of incensed approaches. Nobody wants a flame war going on about a relatively harmless, if tricky, debate. The problems with playing a healer who took care of 'everyone', no matter what alignment they belonged to, would be that in CoV, no matter what type you want to play, and what sort of character you were role-playing, you wouldn't be able to complete the mission if you healed absolutely everyone. On CoH missions where you have to eliminate all Mobs, for instance, you couldn't do that if there was someone in the background healing them all after you died. A truly neutral character can't exist in the black and white world of CoX, for no matter how many shades of grey you want your character to percieve, you can only see in the shades that allow you to progress through the game, which for CoH would be shades of white, and CoV, shades of black.
Talking of fallen heroes and anti-heroes, if you'd like some more ideas on how a character would 'feel' through certain things, such as the slippery slope down to rationalising evil acts with a good intent, I would highly recommend you to read Mario Puzo's 'The Godfather', and, to a lesser extent, Mark Winegardner's 'The Godfather Returns'. Something the movie touches on briefly, but the novels focuse on, is that Michael Corleone starts off wanting to provide for his wife, Kay, and his children. However, whilst still clutching onto the rational that it's "all for them", he loses them, and he's too wrapped up in his bad acts and why he's really doing them to notice.
That, to my mind, makes Michael Corlerone a perfect example of the character you wish to play.
Excellent! Very good discussion.
What I'd like to say is that, from the start, I felt there was a distinction to be made here between the 'fallen hero' and the 'anti-hero in CoV'.
I have no problem with a fallen hero running around the Isles thinking he's trying to do good, slowly getting more villainous (or even finding redemption when the side-swapping system is available). It's an interesting concept, and it does have some nice stories to tell in CoV. The thing is, the only thing another villain is going to see if they find out that Black Tom 'thinks' he's doing it all for good is pity.
The anti-hero is a different matter. That is someone playing directly against the game's themes. Now, if you can have fun doing that, and it doesn't interfere with the fun of others, then more power to your elbow. But if my toon gets to hear about it, we'll be discussing your assassination. (Won't come to that, I don't RP in CoV worth a damn. 
)
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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The thing is, the only thing another villain is going to see if they find out that Black Tom 'thinks' he's doing it all for good is pity.
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I don't understand this bit - should the word 'see' be 'feel'? If so (and it may not be), there are a whole range of things the other villain could feel - contempt, amusement, a burning desire to drag the fallen hero into the pits of despair ... you name it 
Synaesthetix:if your mum wasn't already dead I would go kill her for bringing
you into the world
"see something to pity" be better? Whatever. I've had a long day, okay? 
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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"see something to pity" be better? Whatever. I've had a long day, okay?
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Sorry to hear that - I wasn't having a go, you are normally extremely good at getting your point across (if that's a good thing or not is debatable ...) and I've also had the day from hell (top tip, when running into a card shop 2 minutes before catching a train and filling out the card and unwrapping the cuddly toy ready to deposit the morning of valentines day, make sure the card does NOT say "to my girlfriend" when giving it to your wife and ideally the cuddly toy should not be a pitbull with boxing gloves on - the day only got worse if you can believe that), so I wasn't sure if I was misinterpreting it...
in which case my point stands. But then again, even my heroes are pretty damn callous and cynical .... (for an example think: Doctors save lives. That doesn't necessarily make them nice people and or terribly empathic)
Synaesthetix:if your mum wasn't already dead I would go kill her for bringing
you into the world
Okay, your day was worse than mine. 
Yes, the difference between War Crow and Nevermore back in the beginning was that Crow would do anything it takes to get the job done, but Nevermore wouldn't. Exactly who's the stronger character is open to question.
We did experiment with it quite a lot a while back, I thought in quite an interesting way. Crow lost his girlfriend to Nevermore and couldn't cope. (I'm simplifying this to save time.) Crow 'coped' by using magic to wipe his mind of all emotion except a sense of duty to 'justice'. No compassion, no pity, no love, no hatred, no anger.
Of course, he had to be brought down because he was far too dangerous to let loose in the city. This is someone who might kill a handbag snatcher to stop them doing something worse. There was fiction about it. It was a rather cool plotline if I do say so myself. 
(And there were a lot of people a bit alarmed at how well I could play someone with no emotions. )
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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The anti-hero is a different matter. That is someone playing directly against the game's themes. Now, if you can have fun doing that, and it doesn't interfere with the fun of others, then more power to your elbow. But if my toon gets to hear about it, we'll be discussing your assassination. (Won't come to that, I don't RP in CoV worth a damn. )
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I think, with a little planning, you could play an anti-hero in CoV. Avoiding certain arcs, only taking specific paper missions, making sure to only take certain contacts, only fighting established "villains" in the map areas (not Longbow, nor Wyvern), only PvPing in the Arena or Warburg (and only attacking other heroes if they interrupt/attack first/otherwise get in your way) would certainly be possible, if heavily contrived.
As far as RPing goes, there's certainly scope for the role of anti-hero in CoV. Hardcase targets a certain kind of villain - demons, specifically - as well as branching out into giving the other villain groups a beat-down when they stray into his territory. He's allowed to operate in St Martial by Arachnos - at the very least, he's not actively forced not to - and it would appear that the various other villain groups haven't made a move on him either - not any successful ones, anyhow. So long as your anti-hero character made certain to stick to the shadows as much as possible, and only 'strike' out against specific villains for very specific reasons, you could probably do it without annoying too many people. There's also no reason why an anti-hero wouldn't be averse to enlisting the services/'friendships' of other villains in order to secure the demise of his target(s) - they can afford to be flexible with their morals, after all.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
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I've also had the day from hell (top tip, when running into a card shop 2 minutes before catching a train and filling out the card and unwrapping the cuddly toy ready to deposit the morning of valentines day, make sure the card does NOT say "to my girlfriend" when giving it to your wife and ideally the cuddly toy should not be a pitbull with boxing gloves on - the day only got worse if you can believe that
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LMAO.
The Smoking Demon
Ash/Tar Corruptor
Union
@The Smoking Demon
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p.s. for me for some one to be evil they have to be sane, and do that thing anyway becuase they think it was the rightthing to do
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Thats similar to my view on what makes someone evil, except that an evil person doesn't care if what he does is the right or wrong thing to do, so long as it suits his purpose at that time. Well, it's my view anyway
You could quite easily qualify Dr. Manhatten (Watchmen) as both an Anti-hero and Evil; and he'd be swatting heroes left and right if he had to.
Even Heroes will rob banks if given the right impetus.
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but I have just had so much fun playing closet-heroic villains that I wanted to comment.
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And in the end, I guess that's what really counts. If you're having fun doing so, then there should be no problem.