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Max.
That Pirate mis-leads you; it's not until the arc's over that his true intentions are revealed (Up until the finale, you think you're handing her over to be murdered).
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But the contact, and the ultimate purpose of the mission is not evil, which was my point
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The Doc in Cap studies people she infects herself, without the person knowing (King Midas).
[/ QUOTE ]She didn't infect midas herself, she just didnt want to tell him his condition 
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Doc.Creed is an absolute psycho who dissects the bodies of Heroes so he can replicate their powers in his experiments.
[/ QUOTE ]But he does it only to advance science, not because he's evil
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The Carnie contact isn't just out for chaos; she's turning everyone against each other so the Carnies themselves can sweep in and clear out.
[/ QUOTE ]Again, not evil
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Saving St.Martial from attacks isn't altruistic in nature; it's an understandable reaction to an invasion force. 
[/ QUOTE ]Many of hard case's missions are about helping civilians against wailers, which is not 'evil' IMO.
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But the contact, and the ultimate purpose of the mission is not evil, which was my point
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But the character is led down the arc, under the impression he or she will be murdering the leader of the Scrapyarders. The contact isn't "evil", as such, but you follow it thinking the result will be evil.
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She didn't infect midas herself, she just didnt want to tell him his condition
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Actually, it's pretty heavily implied that she was responsible for his condition. Midas' condition didn't start until after you've stolen equipment from Arachnos for Percey.
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But he does it only to advance science, not because he's evil
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Killing super heroes for the sole purpose of replicating their powers to use in selfish ends isn't evil? That's not advancing science; that's advancing his own power and influence.
Oh, yeah, he also kidnaps homeless people off the streets to butcher them for his experiments.
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Again, not evil
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Um, the Carnies manipulate people and subvert their free will to expand their ranks. If the Carnies had a much stronger position in St.Martial - the point of the contact's actions - they would be able to do this to a lot more people. The comments made by Carnies at their circus area support this.
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Many of hard case's missions are about helping civilians against wailers, which is not 'evil' IMO.
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Once again, it's a response to an attack and sorting out the mess of a demonic invasion. Not evil, no, but hardly altruistic.
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The Doc in Cap studies people she infects herself, without the person knowing (King Midas).
[/ QUOTE ]She didn't infect midas herself, she just didnt want to tell him his condition
[/ QUOTE ]
The clue specifies something along the lines of "Oddly Midas only started to exhibit symptoms the day after you stole the lab equipment from Arachnos", I just finished the arc today, yes she infected him, she also lied to you about it all, she just wanted to infect then cure King Midas so he would owe her.
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Doc.Creed is an absolute psycho who dissects the bodies of Heroes so he can replicate their powers in his experiments.
[/ QUOTE ]But he does it only to advance science, not because he's evil
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So Doc Vahz isn't evil then? He's only doing it for science too. Oh wait, archvillain, I guess that excuse isn't good enough huh? That and Creed wants you to kill a hero. Is that for science too then and not evil?
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Saving St.Martial from attacks isn't altruistic in nature; it's an understandable reaction to an invasion force.
[/ QUOTE ]Many of hard case's missions are about helping civilians against wailers, which is not 'evil' IMO.
[/ QUOTE ]
Civilians are the lifeblood of the Rogue Isles, if people were to indiscriminately start killing off the population all villains lose out on their main source of power: the sheep wandering around the rogue isles. RIP officers are corrupt but they still protect people, this doesn't make them less evil, just not stupid. A ton of the criminal organizations aren't out there to wantonly hurt "the little guys", and those that are are not tolerated by the other criminal groups. Arachnos for instance deals with the snakes, as do RIPs, mercs, etc. Arachnos and just about EVERY other criminal group despises the Vahzilok because they target people off the street for "harvesting", and from watching NPCs, I can tell you many criminals find them despicable and will kill them on sight. This does not make said criminals less evil, just not dumb as a horse's backside.
Next you'll tell me Ghost Widow isn't evil despite overhearing the family say that she ripped a poor bastards heart out of his chest, killing him instantly before the medical transporter could grab him because he refused to do as he was told, because she does work for Arachnos that involves dealing with obvious threats to the civilian population, the civilian population which are the consumers of the rogue isles, consumerism is how money exists, money is power, villains don't want to lose power. Only stupid villains would condone randomly targetting civilians. It's business, not wholesale slaughterfests.
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Doc.Creed is an absolute psycho who dissects the bodies of Heroes so he can replicate their powers in his experiments.
[/ QUOTE ]But he does it only to advance science, not because he's evil
[/ QUOTE ]
So Doc Vahz isn't evil then? He's only doing it for science too. Oh wait, archvillain, I guess that excuse isn't good enough huh? That and Creed wants you to kill a hero. Is that for science too then and not evil?
[/ QUOTE ]Dr. Vahz is NOT evil, he is just misunderstood in his attempts to bring immortality to mankind, as I noted in one of my previous posts.
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Dr. Vahz is NOT evil, he is just misunderstood in his attempts to bring immortality to mankind, as I noted in one of my previous posts.
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Kidnapping civilians, harvesting their organs, stealing corpses from morgues....etc, etc.
Evil the Rogue Isles won't have anything to do with him; there's actually a number of missions where you focus on getting him out of the Isles, and it's pretty heavily suggested that the Heroes in Paragon only found Dr.V because of the contact's actions.
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Dr. Vahz is NOT evil, he is just misunderstood in his attempts to bring immortality to mankind, as I noted in one of my previous posts.
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I think your moral and ethical compass needs finetuning if you seriously believe that. He's stealing people's wives, husbands, children and loved ones off the street to kill them and harvest their organs to create patchwork zombies. Sorry, yes that is evil, because it is unethical, because the end does not warrant the means.
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Dr. Vahz is NOT evil, he is just misunderstood in his attempts to bring immortality to mankind, as I noted in one of my previous posts.
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I think your moral and ethical compass needs finetuning if you seriously believe that. He's stealing people's wives, husbands, children and loved ones off the street to kill them and harvest their organs to create patchwork zombies. Sorry, yes that is evil, because it is unethical, because the end does not warrant the means.
[/ QUOTE ]Unethical? Yes, of course it is, but the thing is, his intentions are good, he's just so insane that he doesnt care about ethics, in his mind those people must be sacrificed for the greater good.
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Dr. Vahz is NOT evil, he is just misunderstood in his attempts to bring immortality to mankind, as I noted in one of my previous posts.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think your moral and ethical compass needs finetuning if you seriously believe that. He's stealing people's wives, husbands, children and loved ones off the street to kill them and harvest their organs to create patchwork zombies. Sorry, yes that is evil, because it is unethical, because the end does not warrant the means.
[/ QUOTE ]Unethical? Yes, of course it is, but the thing is, his intentions are good, he's just so insane that he doesnt care about ethics, in his mind those people must be sacrificed for the greater good.
[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously megalomania and god complexes are now an excuse for genocide. I'm sure that makes the turks who comitted genocide against the armenians in WW1 not evil either. Just misunderstood.
EDIT: That comparison might've been tasteless
I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that he is technically not 'evil', in the normal meaning of the word.
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I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that he is technically not 'evil', in the normal meaning of the word.
[/ QUOTE ]
But in the gameworld he is.
Good and evil are actual, tangible concepts within the CoX universe. There are some shades of grey, yes, but saying he isn't evil in CoX just because he's insane doesn't excuse anything.
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I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that he is technically not 'evil', in the normal meaning of the word.
[/ QUOTE ]
But in the gameworld he is.
Good and evil are actual, tangible concepts within the CoX universe. There are some shades of grey, yes, but saying he isn't evil in CoX just because he's insane doesn't excuse anything.
[/ QUOTE ]In the gameworld, he's a villain, because he's breaking the laws. However, being a villain is totally different from being evil.
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I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that he is technically not 'evil', in the normal meaning of the word.
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I hate to bring semantics into this but:
e·vil Audio pronunciation of "evil" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (vl)
adj. e·vil·er, e·vil·est
1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
3. Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
4. Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
5. Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.
It fits 1, 2, 4 and arguably 5 of those definitions, by the normal meaning of the word.
EDIT: Furthermore before it gets brought up, while you can argue that morals are relative (and they are not in Co*) ethicality is not, and is a clearly defined standard of "good" morality. You can twist what Doc V does to be moral by relative morality, but you can't twist it so it's ethical, thus it's still quite evil as per the only objective measure of such things.
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In the gameworld, he's a villain, because he's breaking the laws. However, being a villain is totally different from being evil.
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Not in CoX it isn't.
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In the gameworld, he's a villain, because he's breaking the laws. However, being a villain is totally different from being evil.
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Not in CoX it isn't.
[/ QUOTE ]In CoX, a supervillain is basically someone using superpowers without being a registered hero. And IMO, the definition of a villain would be "One who does what he pleases without caring about any rules or restrictions", which doesnt necessarily make one evil, unless one wishes to do evil things.
Atlas will turn over in his grave at the suggestion that he was a supervillain simply for supering without a license.
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n CoX, a supervillain is basically someone using superpowers without being a registered hero.
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Er, no. Non-registered Heroes just act without legal support; meaning the people they arrest were, more often than not, going to get off on a technicality.
Plus, as Augury pointed out, by your interpretation Atlas and everyone else pre-Right for Might were super villains.
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And IMO, the definition of a villain would be "One who does what he pleases without caring about any rules or restrictions", which doesnt necessarily make one evil, unless one wishes to do evil things.
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We're going by the gameworld's view, here.
In the CoX series, the villains are evil, and they do commit evil acts.
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Obviously megalomania and god complexes are now an excuse for genocide. I'm sure that makes the turks who comitted genocide against the armenians in WW1 not evil either. Just misunderstood.
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AFAIK, the Turks didn't perform their actions with the end goal being that of immortality for mankind, so I'd say your comparison falls flat on its face. Sure, megalomania is no excuse for "genocide" (although I'm not sure indiscriminately abducting a few thousand civilians really counts as such anyway), but that's the response of a sane and rational mind - in the eyes of a crazed doctor who's become so focused on his legacy to the world, a few thousand mouthbreathers is evidently a small price to pay - after all, without him they'd be dead anyway... right?
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We're going by the gameworld's view, here.
In the CoX series, the villains are evil, and they do commit evil acts.
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Dr Anne-Marie Engles, on Dr Vahzilok: "It's interesting that he seemed to have the same goal as you: eradicating the deadly plague he had caused. I guess it's possible that Vahzilok really does care about the harm he causes."
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
so you are of the view that the ends justifys the means?
becuase that is really sort of Evil
Dr. Vazhilok probably thinks the 'heroes' interuppting his work to cure death are villains, and that he's a good person. Good and evil are subjective opinions. It's been said before by contacts in game that if Dr. Vazhilok obeyed ethical guidelines and didn't do what he did he could be one of the greatist surgeons and medical scientists of the century. He's doing things his own way and not following the law. Does that make him a criminal? Yes. He's doing it to cure death and enable people to live forever. Does that make him evil? I don't think so.
One good intention doesn't excuse evil methods and a barbaric approach. He recruits psychopaths and sadists that are shown to enjoy cutting up innocents; as evidenced in a great deal of their dialogue, and a number of missions.
And Syn, we could easily argue he's only wanting to clean up that plague because he's getting too much outside interest from it. If the world's eye is on him, it's going to be incredibly difficult to make a move without Heroes leaping on him; this is exactly why, in City of Villains, he's unable to get any sort of strong position within the Rogue Isles.
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so you are of the view that the ends justifys the means?
becuase that is really sort of Evil
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I never stated what my personal views are - I'm just demonstrating a possible line of thought from the viewpoint of Dr Vaz, as I understand his motives.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
Syra, you're applying your own moral viewpoint to him. You think he's evil. I think he's evil. Does he think he's evil, or just misunderstood and trying to do a good thing the only way he knows how?
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And Syn, we could easily argue he's only wanting to clean up that plague because he's getting too much outside interest from it.
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That's most assuredly not how it's presented to you by the contact, though. Seeing as you were so resolute on going by what the perception was as given by CoH not a few posts before, it seems a bit much of an about-turn to suddenly ignore what the game has to say, contextually, and make an abstract argument that at no point was theorised either explicitly or implicitly by the contact.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
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Syra, you're applying your own moral viewpoint to him. You think he's evil. I think he's evil. Does he think he's evil, or just misunderstood and trying to do a good thing the only way he knows how?
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This is CoX, though; good and evil do exist. Whether he thinks is evil is largely irrelevant when we're using a gameworld's sense of morals.
When the other villain groups - responsible for the summoning of demons, rife street violence, oppression and so forth - won't have anything to do with him because they think his methods are sick, and they're acknowledging what they do is evil, then I see the "but he doesn't think he's evil" viewpoint as a bit of a cop-out for him.
If I was to murder someone then say "oh, I don't it's evil" that doesn't make it any less of an evil act.
Max.
That Pirate mis-leads you; it's not until the arc's over that his true intentions are revealed (Up until the finale, you think you're handing her over to be murdered).
The Doc in Cap studies people she infects herself, without the person knowing (King Midas).
Doc.Creed is an absolute psycho who dissects the bodies of Heroes so he can replicate their powers in his experiments.
The Carnie contact isn't just out for chaos; she's turning everyone against each other so the Carnies themselves can sweep in and clear out.
Saving St.Martial from attacks isn't altruistic in nature; it's an understandable reaction to an invasion force.