I don't really roleplay in CoV, but I have done a bit on CoH. I'd say your idea already exists to some degree and was wondering if you had tried contacting any of the SGs currently existing in CoV? They probably already have various coalitions set up.
Also, a question: [ QUOTE ]
We'd all be under one ruleset
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What does that mean?
Same set of rules for conduct? Something to do with utilisation of external rules for governing combat?
If it's conduct, my experience of the roleplayers in CoH would suggest that the reason there are different roleplay SGs is that getting everyone to agree on a particular set of rules for roleplay conduct is next to impossible.
We've never managed to formulate any such rules for Galaxy Girl meetings, because the people who attend have such a large variety of outlooks and experience at roleplaying. Instead, we have a 'go with the flow' attitude and we argue it out when something goes wrong.
It doesn't work for some people, particularly those with a more rigorous attitude to plotting. We tend to say "turn up, see what happens, if you don't like it, well, it isn't for everyone."
Sorry, I'm wandering. Question was, what did you mean by the line quoted above.
PS. By the way, we don't have Guilds in CoX, it's not a fantasy. Yes, I classify SWG as fantasy.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
[ QUOTE ]
Also, a question: [ QUOTE ]
We'd all be under one ruleset
[/ QUOTE ]
What does that mean?
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Well based on the link the OP gave in his original post I think this is what he was refereing to.
Personally I find it pretty scary stuff. Some of it makes sense but things like "Healing in combat is allowed unless otherwise organised or agreed upon", is
a) ambiguous (are we supposed to be agreeing IC or OOC,
b) incredibly restrictive
and
c) Plain silly - who is going to trust a villain to be restricted by any agreement he made? Perhaps this might work with some heroes, but even then I doubt it. Are we supposed to arrange in advance whether we might be double crossed during an exchange, whether an upcoming fight is a trap an he has friend around the corner who might heal him.
There is a lot of common sense on those pages, quite a lot which I agree with in principle, but some things seem a little questionable. How would the CoX communitee take to
[ QUOTE ]
6 ) Joining Multiple Groups/PA's/Jobs And/Or Spying.
if you wish to role play your character in more than one group, for example, your character may be a member of the local police force, but may also wish to be part of a criminal gang... or in a criminal gang but wants a job at the medcentre... You must ask the leaders of the groups you are wanting to be part of for permission to do this.
In cases of spying, most leaders and groups will have a rule that they must be aware of what is going on, a spy can seriously damage a group and guild, icly and oocly due to the effect of what is known or leaked, it is good etiquette and advised that you speak to the leader the group you wish to spy on before starting, they may refuse you entry or wish to lay a condition, such as if you are caught that you will face death.
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Also, whilst I can see the sense in having a small number of refs have veto on all plots, I'd have to ask how they will be selected, what steps would be taken to ensure they were unbiased, and what they could do if they were ignored by particular players (remembering that they are just normal players and have no powers).
Warning: Personal Viewpoint
I wanderered around the outskirts of the MERP (back when it was the Mos Eisley RP Community, and for a month or two after the shift to Mos Entha). The intent - as far as I could tell - was to allow for a common playing field for RP characters in the same universe.
This didn't have all that much impact on the groups of us who just used to hang around the Mos Eisley cantina and generally RP - which, to all intents and purposes, is what the Galaxy Girl meets are like.
Antitroll Acknowledgement: GG is not the entirity of CoH RP, etc etc
From an OOC point of view, it depends on a structure of 'GM' like figures. Since people tend to run their own plots, the political issues surrounding something like this (particularly for those many heroes not affiliated with SuperGroups) are large.
From an IC point of view, the potential for powers-conflicts when attempting to impose a level playing field is also an area of concern. Who gets to say what does and doesn't work? Whose powers break the gameset?
Ah, that kind of rules. That kind of rules are why we don't have things like a "Coalition of All Roleplay SGs". The Hard Roleplayers don't like the rules because they don't give the GMs enough power. The Soft Roleplayers don't like them because they tend to restrict off-the-cuff plots and general non-plot RP.
Everyone writing rules like that has an agenda. The bit you quote about spying probably stems from someone having a bad experience when their 'guild' was spied on. I've seen copious notes on 'playing the opposite gender' in a general roleplay advice document (which was obviously meant to target specific people). I've seen comments about 'playing villains in a heroic setting' which stemmed from bad experiences with inexperienced roleplayers playing 'dark hero' types.
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Also, whilst I can see the sense in having a small number of refs have veto on all plots
[/ QUOTE ]
Your own comments suggest this isn't a good idea. It would be much better (IMHO) to provide a list of known, experienced GMs and suggest that people go to them for advice. It's amazing how many people don't consider the setting when building plots and having someone go over it for plot holes can save trouble later.
We don't have such a system at GG, maybe we should.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
One thing I'd like to say about a "common ruleset" is that it's not bad by nature but I noticed it often creates a community agreeing on it, inside the whole community of RPers (all others who either don't agree with the ruleset either are not aware at all).
About the MERPC ruleset itself, it's written for SWG so...
I suppose any form of coordination between RP supergroups is good. Discussing some "rules" may be a start, if needed.
Well, Diurne is not a Supergroup leader. Actually, Diurne isn't even member of a supergroup.
Just an "outsider" opinion then.
I like to think that the majority of the regulars at GG have managed to naturally fall into an acceptance of certain behaviours. We do our best to keep things fun, not breaking plots, while at the same time trying to respect the fact that Paragon City is not a typical comic-book setting, nor are the GG meets.
Sure, we get it wrong sometimes, but the point is we do our best.
As has been said, though, most of the roleplayers at GG are very individualistic about the kind of roleplaying they enjoy. There can be an immense variety at GG, which is a benefit for those trying to find wha they're looking for. However, it does mean that attempts to introduce any kind of formal, established rules to it can be met with opposition, and are likely to infringe upon how many people view certain aspects of the game.
That said, if some kind of guidelines could be developed, with GMs who were not only knowledgeable and capable, but also flexible enough to accept that different people will want to do different things with their RP, I'd be in favour of it. However, nothing I've seen yet has given me any indication that anyone is even close to creating such a set of guidelines.
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The bit you quote about spying probably stems from someone having a bad experience when their 'guild' was spied on.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, that's a ruleset for Star Wars Galaxies, where the "Galactic Civil War" was theorically a major thing in the game.
From my experience in that game, "spying" generally turned to a justification to "forced consequences upon a guild" (if not just griefing).
Like "hahaha I was a spy and I had access to that and now you may not blah blah blah", breaking the consent and agreement about a specific situation between players/guilds.
As SWG is also a game about assets, supplies, restricted access to housing etc..., from "RP guenine spying" to "As I spy it is justified to destroy what you worked for", the limit was blurred.
Now, as you said, it depends heavily on personnal experiences.
I've seen two "spy situation" happening in the same guild :
- one turned to be a pure one-way "I am a spy and you'll be aware the day I ruined your fun"
- one turned to a RP plot with almost everyone in the guild OOC'ly being aware and played until the spy was IC'ly revealed, hunted and shot dead.
Well, in SWG, when you don't know what "spying" will have as a consequence on your group, your city, your guild, your assets, you just ban it. It's indeed really easy to truly ruin weeks of work as a spy.
That's why I understand the MERPC ruleset is mistrusting spying, because it can be really damaging.
On the other hand, the guild I was in, which agreed to a similar ruleset, had its nice spy story so everything went fine, but booted the unwanted spy when it became aware of him.
To be honest, that sounds like the Guilds had no security, trusted that members were always good guys, and hadn't considered spying a possibility. Or the 'bad spy' was a lousy roleplayer using OOC access to information to justify IC actions.
Banning spying should only be required if you basically can't trust your players. In an environment where it happens, sensible people would take precautions regarding information access to untrusted members. A blanket ban basically says your system doesn't work.
IMHO, of course.
PS.
And I would also like to make it plain that GG RP is not the only RP in CoH.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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To be honest, that sounds like the Guilds had no security
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes but the ban can be seen as a reminder to everyone agreeing with the ruleset.
As a whole, it's mostly a safeguard against immature players (or guilds) who are exploiting game mechanics to ruin others work.
In a game where a character can empty your supply house of millions of steel units, carrying everything away in a couple of trips without breaking a sweat, I see that just as "please play nice" policy.
If the game engine was adapted to roleplay situations, I bet everyone would agree on spying, sabotaging etc more easily.
The "please play nice" policy doesn't prevent actual, agreed, RP spying.
Yes, it's a problem of trust. I agree guilds could be tighter on security.
Some are, others aren't.
As said, there is as many views on the game and RP as players and RPers.
I also do remember a "war ring" where all guilds were agreeing to be constantly at war with each other.
It was a workaround to allow more spontaneous fights (PvP) between members (otherwise, you had to challenge the other in a duel, ruining any possibility of ambushes or outbursts of violence).
So many characters I was interacting with were "red" to me. It didn't mean we were always fighting. The possibility existed, only.
There, the idea went well and there were very rare problems with clueless players attacking for no other reason than "seeing a red". But the consequences of problems were very very limited (death in SWG is a joke).
Now, spying could bring far more problems and arguments.
[ QUOTE ]
Your own comments suggest this isn't a good idea. It would be much better (IMHO) to provide a list of known, experienced GMs and suggest that people go to them for advice. It's amazing how many people don't consider the setting when building plots and having someone go over it for plot holes can save trouble later.
We don't have such a system at GG, maybe we should.
[/ QUOTE ]
In my experience the background setting is one of those elements that people treat VERY selectively. Personally I like using the established as much and as completely at possible. I feel it gives everybody the same point of reference and ensures at least some form of consistency.
Others do not like an adherence to an established background story or world description, instead focusing on elements they would like to bring to this MMO (treating the MMO as a canvas that has to be painted instead of a painting already partly done, which you can add the unique and defining touches to). A typical player from the second group would for instance create vampires based on the White Wolf game or Drow Elves in a non-D&D based fantasy game.
My take on this is that the second group can have fantastic roleplaying moments and storylines but they are very hard to make more encompassing than the (relatively) few original members. The first group are more easy to integrate into, but they require an initial effort from each player and there is a constant threat of being scoffed at for not knowing something presented in the background story. A good example of this could be in World of Warcraft where certain fanatics (and I mean that literally) would flame and harass anyone not owning the entire library of Warcraft based books, naming them Holy Canon.
I think the best course to pursue lies somewhere in the middle and even though GG is not my personal cup of tea, I have come to realize that they are in fact onto something of value: A common denominator that requires little knowledge and little effort initially. Interest and an open mind is usually enough. As people are further integrated in various stories, the complexity intensifies into elaborate stories and dramas.
I don't think referees or advocates will bring anything positive to the roleplaying community on City of Heroes/Villains.
[ QUOTE ]
In a game where a character can empty your supply house of millions of steel units, carrying everything away in a couple of trips without breaking a sweat, I see that just as "please play nice" policy.
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Ah... poor game mechanics. That explains it better.
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The "please play nice" policy doesn't prevent actual, agreed, RP spying.
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But it does make that spying agreed, therefore potentially more easily discovered or balked.
Fair enough, if, as you say, the game made it easy to mess someone up like that then, yes, that explains a lot. That said, those are trully dreadful game mechanics.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
I personally prefer the freeform style of roleplay that GG gives us. I've been in a community roleplaying scheme on a different MMO (Both the 'Crossroads of Yew' and 'CoRe' from Ultima Online) And i have to say that while they had their good points...
Mostly they really, really sucked for me.
Oh, and thats not a stab at me, the comment with the 'Dark Hero' Was it? :P
Still about "spying", there is another thing, unrelated this time to Star Wars Galaxies.
Many RP guilds in MMOG want to filter who is applying for membership. They want to choose who will or will not join.
A common requirement I saw is "Was your character member of another guild earlier ? If yes, which ?" and/or "Is this character an alt ?"
(some guilds refuse alts)
Most of the spy stories with bad endings I heard of started with a fresh character, created purposedly to infiltrate a said guild.
So, when the spy, in-game, is IC'ly lying about his life, goals etc... it's seen as roleplaying. It's ok.
However, to enter the guild, the player lied to the players community if the joining process is also an OOC thing.
And it happens, even in RP guilds, because some players find fair to lie to the players community as they intend to be spies.
Make your own opinion.
Concerning spies or other excuses to destroy other people's enjoyment and fun:
There are muppets and idiots in every game.
In my experience there is a surprisingly low percentage in City of Heroes/Villains, especially compared to the approximately 60-75 percent I encountered in my time on WoW, but they are there.
I find that Global Chat really helps in the continued fight against unwanted individuals, simply add the offender to your global ignore list and if particularly offensive, give a friendly (OOC) warning on your Coalition channel stating the offender's global handle. It might sound petty but in the long run I think it is a viable solution as long as people are trustworthy in their assessment of others.
I'm in favour of the ideas of helping to promote more RP 'events'and such, but a an underlying set if rules is, in my eyes, unsuitable for this particular game.
There's a lot of fragmented RP groups, who RP and have fun in their own ways, and unfortunately, the rules just wouldn't encompass everything people wanted.
Plus, with the lack of a market-system and inventory supplies, less is at stake from the 'spying' system than in SWG.
I'm not saying every single rule we had in Entha needs to be in full effect here, that wont do.
I am saying however we do need a basic set of rules to be in affect at RP events, or common RP grounds. It isn't hard to follow, and I think it'd do wonders for the RP here. Quite frankly, I can't stand RP on the American servers. Gemini Park is a joke, nothing but goofy people doing random things and talking OOCly, no structure.
I'm not asking for a strict ruleset that forces people to not do their own thing... I simply asking for something to bring this community closer.
Starting a full fledged community would do that, an alliance of sorts.
Maybe even claim a city as the people on SWG did with Mos Entha.
That clears things up a little bit for me, thanks. Although I can't speak for a majority of the RP SG's, the Galaxy Girl meetings seem to have a non-codexed ruleset, that basically details the basic points, such as ((bracket)) talk for any necessary OOC chat etc.
Although it may require more work, perhaps a collection of rules for different types of RP-happenings could be established, such as one set of rules for RP-played missions, another for events held between different SG's at locations etc.
And the idea of claiming an area as 'our own' seems like a nice idea, but I think most RPers will have already established where their apartments/bases are located.
(If I come across as arrogant, blame my excessive watching of Mr T in The A-Team this afternoon 
)
awww, thats sweet, and as much as i laude your ideas, you are aware that we are in a combat orentated MMOG, that is getting more combat orentated all the time right?
if we can find some quite out of the way place to do this we are lucky, trying to claim an area would be tantmount to asking for greif in this game, most are good folks and don't really care what people are doing as long as it doesent affect others, but this would.
i wouldent normaly comment on such thing, i like how we are and how things are gane about. i'm also still learning a great deal, but this doesent seem nessercery.
I think I stuck it out in Entha longer than Doc did, although I was always only ever a fringe member of the cantina crowd, and never officially part of any of the guilds.
The biggest problems with this sort of system in COX are as follows:-
Common background : We're a generic heroes setting, if it works in a comic, *any* comic, it should in theory work here. This means that often culture clashes have to be decided on a case-by-case basis, Doc being a scientist hanging around with a load of mages is a good example, since we have to keep working out how magic and tech should interact.
That either means a very small number of "World refs" on hand in every interaction to make settings calls, or trusting that the system is flexible enough for the players to reach an agreement. We use the second right now, it seems to work pretty well.
Combat rules: Quite simply, this is impossible in-game. fights are pure RP fights, the duel mechanic doesn't exist outside the arena's and too much functionality is lost in there. Fights are rare (outside GM run missions) and usually boil down to a comparison of level and powersets, with a mockup in the arena if people can't decide a clear victor.
Static setting: With bases now finally being introduced we have the possibility of a static setting forming, but we've done pretty well so far without one, with most plots being GM'd in the traditional sense. While we have a community, Hero/villian interaction isn't at the level to make them good opponents, so it's mostly players vs NPCs, with the GM's changing in and out frequently.
In short, 90% of the reasons you need those rulesets either don't or can't apply. The GG dynamic (and most other dynamics) are still goverened by being predominately heroes and villians against the world, not the other players, and personally I'm happy like that.
Or in other words, imagine the MERPC where you had two cities, one pure empire with all rebels GM'd NPC's and one pure rebel with occasional NPC attacks, and the two only meeting when you went though a month of OC organisation to get everyone in the same place. There's a limited amount of intreigue, but that's mostly controlled on an internal group level.
I was going to write something long and involved, but basically, Hiki did it better than I could of. She's got fairly long experience of both settings and can therefore point out the failings of the SWG rules in a CoX setting.
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I am saying however we do need a basic set of rules to be in affect at RP events, or common RP grounds.
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Draft one. Post it in the Roleplaying forum.
Really.
We've had several attempts at it (as I said at the beginning). By 'we' I'm not talking about the GG crowd. The most accepted set of 'rules' was produced by Shadowplay and can be found in the Players' Guides forum (I'll see if I can find it and post the link). It, like every other attempt, has certain elements that others disagree with. The author had a particular bugbear and puts emphasis on it that's probably not needed. However, the overall effect is good and it's a nice generic guide on how to behave in a CoH RP setting of (more or less) any kind.
See if you can come up with something better. Maybe something which covers both City of games. Get it agreed by the other members of the community and we can publish it with the other guides.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
Part of the problem has always been the gaps. The little bits that the powersets and backgrounds don't tell you, but for common senses sake, must be in. (Examples include Recall Friend and it's usefullness or lack thereof on objects, the idea that there must be some kind of pain-relief involved in /regen, above and beyond dull pain, because otherwise no regenner would be able to do anything when even at half a health-bar, the problem of what health-bars represent in general (and the fact you can regen completely in a couple of minutes), the differences between "energy" "magical energy" "psionics" etc, and a half a hundred other little niggles.)
Again, as Hiki says, half our powers work in our specific world-views. Trying to blend them together has always been a matter of fudge, agreement and downright handwaving. A mechanics system is practically impossible. Social conventions may be doable.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
I was part of the Mos Eisley RP group, and then Mos Entha before I finally left the game for Paragon in Sept 04. (If you remember Tokoha's tailor shop... )
My only worry is that smaller groups or those who do not agree to a general player rule-set will be marginalised to such an extent that they will have little "voice" in the player community.
That's definitely a cause for concern. Most of the roleplaying I've seen in CoH has been a true representation of a "collective of individuals." Everyone has a different view of how the setting works, whether due to preference, lack of information, or (mis)interpretation. I think guidelines and advice rather than strict rules fit the broad nature of the superhero genre far better, since it is such a varied genre that is difficult to quantify.
Hi.
I'm a former member of the SWG RPing community on Chimera, Mos Entha. (link) Mos Entha Roleplayers Community
I'm looking to bring us CoV RPers together under one "roof", under one ruleset.
I here by propose the "City of Heroes/Villians Alliance of Roleplaying Guilds". We'd all be under one ruleset, to be disscussed by all guildleaders of any guild that wishes to join.
This would take place on the Union server, the community I mean.
I believe this would allow us to launch events more easily, and to spur up more RP, not to mention higher quality RP.
I'm willing to provide us with some forums of our own, people could sign up on them and post their opinions and such.
This, I think, would be a step in the right direction for the roleplayers of CoV and CoH.
Ideas? Comments?