I work with the world personally, rather than trying to snip things out just because I don't like them (People who played "Villain" characters in CoH, for example....gah, I could have throttled them).
At the end of the day, people need to realise MMORPGs are still a long way from being able to have the freedom and depth of Pen and Paper Roleplay, so I think calling the concepts "half-baked" is a little unfair; especially when you need to consider that Roleplayers will never be in the majority, so of course other parts of the game are going to take priority.
On a similar note, and with all due respect, I think it's just people actively looking for something to complain about when it comes to a "static world". I don't ever recall MMORPGs having a multi-server world (i.e. A game with many different servers, and not just on a single one ala EvE) that remains adaptable to the actions of players. I'm not particuarly bothered with things such as Dr.V's defeat coming up in conversation; I just don't deal with it in "casual" settings, it's something that would merely be discussed with those I fought alongside.
You also need to factor in the logistics; you'd make entire streams of content redundant just because someone got to the AV before everyone else, and so on.
Finally, I'd hardly say Paragon city was a "police state"; given the attitude towards mutants and metahumans when it comes to a Hero license is the exact same one as "regular" humans, coupled with what NPCs say, it seems as if equality is pretty much accepted within Paragon City.
Now if you'll excuse me, I can feel the sleeping tablets taking effect.
There's the whole 'novel' problem here.
From the viewpoint of writing, most books will take a specific turning point in a characters life and expand on that; throwing in references to 'hidden secrets' etc.
Hence why a Harry Potter MMORPG couldn't work; how long are you gonna sit studying to learn your next spell?
So, reality has to be liberally chucked out the window and a new reality put down; one of 'recurring consequences'; same as Batman etc. (Duh...Bats...Make sure Joker's cell in Arkham is majorly locked down, has no visitors, is bright white and don't lock all the people who want to kill you in one place); so 'basic hero stupidity' has to be added to the world.
Next is the 'Sunnydale' effect, where more Superheroes than could possibly exist gather in one place; so "SUPER-STORIES" become like a dull version of Eastenders.
Hence the world we're playing in isn't really an RP world to start with; add in Zortel's 'Static World' theoreum and it's far more an FPS than an RPG.
However
A little bit of enthusiasm can short-circuit these world breakers.
[ QUOTE ]
("You look tired." "Oh, we beat Dr. Vazhilok today." "Wait... I beat him today as well."
[/ QUOTE ]
"What? Then the Doctor Vahzilok we fought must be a clone! How many other clones does he have around? We must find out!"
It's a sandpit for ideas, and playing with sand is fun 
even if the ideas tend to crumble when the big kids kick it in your face. 
[ QUOTE ]
Finally, I'd hardly say Paragon city was a "police state"; given the attitude towards mutants and metahumans when it comes to a Hero license is the exact same one as "regular" humans, coupled with what NPCs say, it seems as if equality is pretty much accepted within Paragon City.
[/ QUOTE ]
Billboard: Earth is for Humans, let's keep it that way.
Police Drones: Posted outside trains and major roads to the cities, somehow able to distinguish between friend and foe and teleport someone instantly to jail. How long until they're completed and can roam around, zapping criminals in the street? That's rather police state to me.
RE: Static world. Point, still one that irks me though.
RE: Freedom of depth in MMORPG's: Hopefully the CoH PnP book that's coming out will help clear some of the stuff up until then, but still some glaring details are missing when compared with the otherwise rich gameworld.
[ QUOTE ]
(People who played "Villain" characters in CoH, for example....gah, I could have throttled them).
[/ QUOTE ] Most of the people I know who've played villain characters in CoH (Me included) did it because we were using them in a player run story arc among a group.
[ QUOTE ]
Hence the world we're playing in isn't really an RP world to start with; add in Zortel's 'Static World' theoreum and it's far more an FPS than an RPG.
[/ QUOTE ] rofl i pwnd u tyrant u suck! noob, u need 2 lern how2play!
[ QUOTE ]
Next is the 'Sunnydale' effect, where more Superheroes than could possibly exist gather in one place; so "SUPER-STORIES" become like a dull version of Eastenders.
[/ QUOTE ] "My best man, Turboman.... and my darling wife to be Mrs. Magic in bed together on the eve of our wedding! They're under mind control from the eeevilll Divorce Lawyer of hell!"
[ QUOTE ]
It's a sandpit for ideas, and playing with sand is fun
[/ QUOTE ] Except when it gets in your socks and clothes. -SPD, -ACC (How're you supposed to concentrate with it in there?).
Obviously, the game could always be better for role-players, I think that eventually we might get *some* of the things we've been asking for, such as 'proper' meeting places, more useful emotes, etc.
Obviously, I can only speak from the experience at Galaxy Girl, there are other role-players out there who are adapting in a different way, but I'm sure they'd like some more RP-friendly material added for some quality-of-life.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Next is the 'Sunnydale' effect, where more Superheroes than could possibly exist gather in one place; so "SUPER-STORIES" become like a dull version of Eastenders.
[/ QUOTE ] "My best man, Turboman.... and my darling wife to be Mrs. Magic in bed together on the eve of our wedding! They're under mind control from the eeevilll Divorce Lawyer of hell!"
[/ QUOTE ]
"Really? Well, we did all that and had the Bridesmaid turn out to be his long lost cousin we thought died in a car crash, who was possessed by the spirit of my ex-husband's cat"
[ QUOTE ]
Except when it gets in your socks and clothes. -SPD, -ACC (How're you supposed to concentrate with it in there?).
[/ QUOTE ]
Uhh.... with my Sand-Repellent Weasel Spray?
I agree completely. The setting is one in which game mechanics do not mesh with a believable setting. Why do "Training Enhancements" exist, and why can they be traded for Influence? The system assumes all heroes adhere to a specific mould. For example, characters who are robots can still be effected by poisons and mind-effecting powers.
There's a lot of the setting that seems thrown in for the sake of making it easy for the developers to create a workable GAME rather than a workable WORLD. We have War Walls, which, even ignoring the implication that Paragon's citizens essentially live like caged animals, are utterly pointless because they should (if not for the in-game flight ceiling) have a limit to their height, allowing them to be flown over.
Paragon IS a police state. Worse, it's one which makes no sense. A city which can afford "medical chips" for all its heroes can't afford a decent police force, or to rebuild Boomtown? The police drones could solve all of the city's crime problems on their own. There are at least a dozen in Galaxy City alone, and these things can take out Giant Monsters. 12 of them could clear every single criminal and threat in the city, easily, and there are definitely enough heroes to keep Galaxy City safe for a few days. How can we be expected to believe a setting were this kind of thing happens?
If I were to come up with a justification for how the setting works, it would be a world in which heroes serve only to maintain the status quo, as mass-produced public icons existing only to lull the citizenry into a false sense of security and safety and to stop them from questioning why they are locked behind war walls and watched by police drones which distinguish criminals from the innocent based on mere appearance, running speed, and whether or not they're a registered hero.
RE: Silver Weasel -
[ QUOTE ]
Uhh.... with my Sand-Repellent Weasel Spray?
[/ QUOTE ] The miracles of Science!
RE: Wordmaker -
[ QUOTE ]
We have War Walls, which, even ignoring the implication that Paragon's citizens essentially live like caged animals
[/ QUOTE ] Stop rattling yer bone-box, you clueless sod! You'll have the Lady cast her shadow on you! [/Planescape reference]
Another thing: The NPC's in the streets do say some interesting things. For example the comments about "Not all you capes are bad" or something said to similar effect when rescuing someone, I can't remember the exact words, I'll have a look later. And the Chris Jenkins posters, calling out to people to sue if they get injured while heroes battle. Seems like Paragon's very own Jack Thompson.
Eressos, one thing I just remembered you said in the post you made in Suggestions, that this isn't the Justice League world. I wish it was, truely. DC and Marvel have been around longer, so the way their hero elements work have a lot more substance behind them I guess, than a story brewed as a backdrop for an MMORPG.
One thing I believe will help when it comes, the newspaper missions for heroes. And it makes sense too. I believe it was said somewhere before that villains are pro-active, heroes are reactive. This isn't the case. Hero A reads up about a rare gem going on display in an exhibit. Thinks to himself "Some villain will try and nab that, I'll head over there for when it opens in disguise, ready to catch them if they try it." The hero heads over, sees a villain come to try and steal it, reveals himself and saves the day.
That works much better for some types of characters than going to contacts. Of course, going to contacts will fit some characters more. Having the choice is a good balence. One irk though is if you go IC, you have to avoid certain contacts. Hiring a magic hero to stop a satalite being hacked? Nuh uh.
[ QUOTE ]
Hiring a magic hero to stop a satalite being hacked? Nuh uh.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, Weasel was once put in a space-suit to save the MIR satellite in another world. Magic blasts have no kinetic KB on the user so can be used safely in Zero G 
Quick post since otherwise I'll be late for work.
Most of the "unexplainable" stuff actually fits if you remember one thing, Paragon City is technically the last place still fighting the Rikti war. This isn't peacetime, it's known that there are still Rikti cells still active in the city, just not where and what they're doing.
The war walls, likely curfews, massive security presence, the fact that areas of the city recently destroyed are ignored and forgotten in favour of new "war" technology are all consistant. Why rebuild when there's enough housing and you can better protect people in a tighter area, rebuilding is for when the war is over.
No kids - I would guess that every kid in the city is either a hero, a key personel dependant (doctors, police, fire men, rikti research scientists and heroes) or from a familly too poor to be able to evacuate, every other familly with young children would have been top of the "relocation" list when war, if not broke out, then when war was confined to just Paragon.
As for "Earth for humanity" IIRC it says Humanity, not humans. It could be an anti-metahuman message, an anti Kheldian message, or it could be war propoganda. I'm inclined to think the last personally.
[ QUOTE ]
DC and Marvel have been around longer, so the way their hero elements work have a lot more substance behind them I guess, than a story brewed as a backdrop for an MMORPG.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, they don't, not really.
The universe continuity in both 'seetings' tends to assume that the various titles don't actually interact much. When the X-Men arrive in New York to battle something virtually unstopable, do the other 500 established heroes in the city turn up to help, especially the ones probably capable of dealing with it in 3 seconds flat? Hell no.
Marvel isn't even too good at keeping up the whole Mutants Are Bad thing outside of the mutant comics.
DC made the mistake of creating too many heroes that are too uber. Superman being the case in point. They've had to retcon him so many times to make him beatable it's silly. And in reality, there would be no crime. You've got Superman to take care of everything except magic and kryptonite, and EVERYONE ELSE to deal with those!
Most of the RPG super-world backgrounds I've read have been better than DC, Marvel, or CoH, probably because they have no baggage to drag around and the RPG rules stop the characters becoming stupidly powerful.
[ QUOTE ]
As for "Earth for humanity" IIRC it says Humanity, not humans. It could be an anti-metahuman message, an anti Kheldian message, or it could be war propoganda. I'm inclined to think the last personally.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ditto. Or, if not propaganda, then just basic anti-Rikti.
That said, there's something to be said for anti-Kheldian.
What they are not is anti-mutant. Despite one or two people attempting to RP the whole Marvelesque "People Hate Mutants" thing, but I simply don't buy it. I remember being pulled up by Filth because my toon said he'd been fighting 'Freaks', "which was a common name for mutants." To which my reply was "not that I've ever heard." There's some anti-super prejudice, but it's generic (and very badly portrayed), not aimed specifically at mutants.
And my opinion of the RP setting of CoH: It doesn't have one. People go on about the rich background. Rubbish. I've seen better, more internally consistent, better presented RP settings drawn on the back of a [censored] packet.
And I don't care.
I roleplay despite the game, not because of it. The only thanks I give to CoH for RP are:
1. They actually made a superhero MMO.
2. I've met people I can roleplay with, many of whom now fall into the category of friend.
Everything else is down to the players. Cryptic has nothing to crow about.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
[ QUOTE ]
Everything else is down to the players. Cryptic has nothing to crow about.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope... But you do! 
Ooooh!! Terrible pun!
I agree though... The game background is just soo inconsistant.. Such as two origins for Warwolves for example...
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
I generally agree with most of what Birdy says above, though I'd disagree a bit on the DC comments, because as powerful as Superman is, there's only one of him, and he does in fact protect the whole world and often the solar system and beyond, so the fact that his attention gets diverted is acceptable. What DC did do very much right, in my opinion, is spread their heroes out through fictional cities. It allows them to act on their own without people going "Green Lantern could totally kick that bad guy's <expletive>, why doesn't he do something instead of the Flash?"
[ QUOTE ]
What they are not is anti-mutant. Despite one or two people attempting to RP the whole Marvelesque "People Hate Mutants" thing, but I simply don't buy it.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have to agree. We can probably be safe saying that a character who looks vert different from a normal human will be the subject of some ridicule or staring in public, but that's based on human nature being what it is, to feel uncomfortable around things and people who appear different. Though I seriously doubt it could get to the level of Marvel (which in itself, is a poorly-done theme, as previously said. Just because someone's born with powers instead of having them granted through an accident, they're hated with violent passion? Don't buy it). I'd say mutants who look exactly like normal people are probably just assumed to be heroes.
But, opinions of the CoH/V settings aside, I really do have to agree that the setting is incredbily weak as an RP world. The backstory is dull for the most part, and not made readily available (you have to either piece together the history in-game, or trawl through searches of articles on the website). And for the actual amount of interesting content in it, it's quite a long backstory. It would perhaps have been a lot more interesting if it didn't say so little of real interest spread over such a large amount of writing.
Every argument in favour of the setting as believable and workable from even a comic-book and rpg point of view brings up holes in the setting and mechanics. Every attempt to fill those holes brings up new ones, or creates holes in what's previously been said.
Wordy, both Superman and the Flash were well capable of going back in time due to the ability to move so fast (*sigh*). Superman could be active in more or less every point in the universe, and still have time to get home and spend a nice evening with Lois. He is illogical. They gave him too much power and failed to bother thinking about the consequences of it. Luckily, neither do comic-book fans.
The JLA has a space-station. It's members can be anywhere in the world in seconds. There should be no threat they can't deal with. Nope, Marvel may have just about everyone parked in New York, so they should be tripping over each other, but DC made too many of their heroes too uber, and it's taking them two 'Crisis' mini-series to sort out the mess, and I'll be willing to believe it'll still be a mess after that.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
I think I remember being told about a Batman issue where Batman meets one of the first heroes of Gotham, The Sentinel. Basically he was once a Green Lantern, but had grown so strong he didn't need the ring anymore, and could literally do anything.
He once watched while Batman failed to stop someone being murdered, and Batman got angry at him, saying he could have stopped it, if he'd stayed in Gotham, he could have kept everyone there safe, including his parents (not sure if he actually mentioned his parents though).
The Sentinel brought Batman back in time, and stopped the murder from happening. He then turned to Batman and told him the reason he left was because Gotham City didn't need a god, it needed a hero.
Trite, possibly, but I liked the idea behind the statement.
But yeah, once you through the kind of power that spans the globe and can travel through time into the mix, things do start to get awkward.
[ QUOTE ]
Trite, possibly, but I liked the idea behind the statement.
[/ QUOTE ]
Very trite, and almost always the answer people come up with for why people like that don't solve everything. It's patent rubbish, and inconsistent. Superman is close to that level of power and does choose to help. His writers don't want the comic books to end, however, so they never bother taking his powers to their logical conclusion.
Think about Minority Report for a second. Premeditated murder is a thing of the past in that world because you get caught days before you commit the murder. All they have left are rapid-response, sudden impulse killings. Everyone else knows it's not worth trying.
Superman would do the same thing for ALL CRIME.
You can rationalise it all you like. Stopping crime by making it an ineffective profession isn't acting like a god, it's basically social engineering of the kind we do already. The difference is, now there's a risk of being caught and criminals play on that risk. With Superman, there's no chance of getting away with it. People would stop committing crimes, apart from 'crimes of passion.'
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
This is why I prefer lower-powered heroes. You can believe that someone like Batman has to keep fighting, and still, while his city may get better for short periods, eventually gets worse again, because he's just a man. He can't do everything, and he can't affect major change in the city.
Of course, anything you can say against Superman, you can say against Statesman
in practice though time travel is impossable with out applying a superspace branching theory.
In that you are really jsut shifting to a diffrent verion of super space, rather than ever changing anything as all possabiltys happen anyway, the reson to do thing is to try to propagate that out come across as meny verions as possable. and for every shift you make, you will shift other people too, it's impossable not to.
but accually afecting change ? no, because if you change something you would never have gone back to change it in the first place, unless some how you exist extraious to the universe, at which point why would you care about what happens in that universe ?
the time line is involate, it can't but changed, you can only change the path you follow through it. so i try to leave time travel alone, it way to messy and complcated.
I really don't think anyone (least of all any of us) is qualified to say what is and is not possible regarding time travel. It's not actually possible, anyway, so any attempt to set down what can and cannot happen is futile. It's like any superscience. It does whatever the particular writer in question wants it to do.
Maybe it was possible, but has just been erased?
Time travel is certainly feasible, but once it's been done, it alters the whole structure of time and thus creates a paradoxical hole.
Time is a great healer....so they say....
[ QUOTE ]
you can say against Statesman
[/ QUOTE ]
Statesman isn't even close to Superman's level of power. Superman is almost every non-magical hero in the DC universe rolled up and squshed together. Statesman is a rather overblown Inv/SS Tank.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
[ QUOTE ]
Of course, anything you can say against Superman, you can say against Statesman
[/ QUOTE ]
Note to self: Bring kryptonite the next time you're terrorising Atlas Park. xD
It -is- kind of difficult sometimes to stay in character as a villain, because you can't really pick what mission you do and what mission you don't do, unless you don't mind missing out a lot of exp.
Iguanaja is convinced that technology is evil because it threatens what he calls home (rainforest), and blaims humans for it. Now he sides with people who got flying drones, turn entire isles into factories and other stuff like that.
Just try to ignore it and you'll be fine.
[ QUOTE ]
time travel. It's not actually possible, anyway,
[/ QUOTE ]
It probably is, actually. Perhaps only for photons, perhaps requiring a power source to vast to ever build, yadda, but there's nothing in physics says you can't have time travel.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
[ QUOTE ]
in practice though time travel is impossable with out applying a superspace branching theory.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ignore that bit... just bibbling...
[ QUOTE ]
In that you are really jsut shifting to a diffrent verion of super space, rather than ever changing anything as all possabiltys happen anyway,
[/ QUOTE ]
hmmm... pretty enormous assumption there.
[ QUOTE ]
the reson to do thing is to try to propagate that out come across as meny verions as possable. and for every shift you make, you will shift other people too, it's impossable not to.
but accually afecting change ? no, because if you change something you would never have gone back to change it in the first place,
[/ QUOTE ]
Pah! Total tripe. There's ways around that one.
[ QUOTE ]
unless some how you exist extraious to the universe, at which point why would you care about what happens in that universe ?
[/ QUOTE ]
Dumb question.
[ QUOTE ]
the time line is involate, it can't but changed, you can only change the path you follow through it. so i try to leave time travel alone, it way to messy and complcated.
[/ QUOTE ]
Clearly hasn't got a damn clue what he's going on about. Nothing to worry about then... Now, where did I leave the TARDIS?
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
This is breaking off from a post in Suggestions.
What do you think of the world we've been given to RP in? How does it fit in with how you RP, the characters you play. Does it work with you or against you?
My opinion? It seems the Paragon City we're given is a police state, with metahumans being forced into signing up to a hero license in order to fight, giving them no privacy. Their identity and other information is held on file along with their hero names, allowing any Tom, Dick or Harry hacker with bad motives to find out their identity and get to them through their family. We've got nothing to work with about how jobs and the like work. We've got half baked concepts like Icon and the enhancement stores breaching the gap between World and Game Mechanics, which are normally ignored because they just don't work. Zones and villains are missing big chunks of background (When did the Hollowing happen, for example?), a static world where nothing we does change, where you have to either ignore parts completely ("You look tired." "Oh, we beat Dr. Vazhilok today." "Wait... I beat him today as well.") or RP in small focused groups to avoid things like that happening.
SUPPORT - IT'S NOT JUST A GROUPING OF ATs
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More Than a Game
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