My thoughts on character builds...H34L0R syndrome?
By
Ammon,
Posted on: 2005-11-19 08:25 in Corruptors
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What a tread like this makes me wonder about is:
- How come some feel the need to try and impose their ideas upon others?
- How come some think their ideas are better than others?
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I am not saying you are wrong with this and even though I a times tend to be rather blunt in what I am saying I never tell anyone in my team that their choice of powers suck.
That said if you are in a team and someone give you a good advice wouldnt you be happy for it ?, at least I would and if I knew better/thought I knew better I could get a good conversation out of it. 
And the choice of powers really do matter on how hard/easy a mission end up being and I have yet to meet that many pick up teams that stayed together after getting beaten repeatily in fights against enemies they otherwise had less difficulty with.
Anyway better not to take a power if you never use it anyway, than taking the power and not using it. And better a player that know how to play in a team and can explain his choice of powers and how he uses them than one who have build his character after other people advice but dont understand it.
And hell yearh I think my ideas are better than others and so do almost everyone who think they know what they are talking about 
Kind regards and take this post with a grain of salt, really tried to get it as diplomatic as I could 
I wasn'y going to take the shields, mainly because i'd planned out which powers i wanted and there wasn't really any room for them. But you guys managed to persude me to pick up fire shield. It does seem like it would help keep people's health bars from droppoing so quickly, which means i can heal them more effectivly.
and so far i have to say i'm uninpressed with it. it doesn't last very long, and doesn't seem to give much in the way of defence bonus. Now that could be because i've only got 2 DO Defence on it at the moment, but all i know is that it made no difference to the ammount of healing i had to do.
if anyone has the powers and could give a little advice as to how many slots can make it effective i'd be greatful. thanks
I've not been playing this game for too long but it seems the "H34L0R syndrome" has been around for a long time. People expect things from Defenders and hence now also from Corruptors that are really hold-overs from other games (and they're going to expect things from Corruptors that are hold-overs from Defenders). On the other hand, I'm coming more and more to the view that there's no such thing as a bad build, only bad tactics.
Personally I'm with PhroX on the healing/buffing balance issue - I think skipping the buffs/debuffs is missing the potential of the AT. But I've played with good "h34l0rs" and been very happy with their work. The Corruptor has a wide range of possible builds and I hope we're going to see the full stretch in the game. After all it covers the Blaster and Defender "slots" in CoV (if you want to look at it that way) so we should expect a lot of different approaches from players.
The main problem with "H34L0R syndrome" for me is the drive to conformity - the demand that every Corruptor/Defender H34LZ to the exclusion of all else - and the main cause of that drive seems to be simple ignorance that there are alternatives. Hopefully discussions like this can shed a little light on that particular black hole, but mainly we need to get out there and show the world!
Really, this is plea for variety - let the healer heal, the buffer buff and the bubbler bubble. Let the blaster blast even. I know you're all doing it wrong except me but that's my problem, not yours
Not sure where I thought I was going with that but that's my two penn'orth for you.
_____
Moonlit and Nite-mare - Dark/Dark on both sides of the law.
"If there's anything worse than being sacrificed, it's being sacrificed incompetantly."
WoW Ammon... nice. After all the best way to convince someone of your point is to say they're idiots for not agreeing with you isn't it? XD
Just curious but that corruptor who took 6 blast powers... was he a good damage dealer or were you too busy hollering at him to notice, because he didn't play the AT the way you fanatically believe it should?
Here's an idea... how about you concentrate on your character and your 'perfection' and while you're playing with your calculator or plotting out the coefficient of delimited efficiency, everyone else can focus on remembering the point of the game isn't to 'win' or 'be the best' but to just have fun.
If people don't enjoy buffing why scream at them and insult them for it? I'm well aware of the power of buffing myself but I still don't care personally; if I don't want it or simply don't like the graphic for it, then I won't take it and I'll play around my weaknesses and strengths instead of sitting under the cookie cutter like every other efficiency obsessee :3
Feel free to give people advice and share your experience; that's definitely good, but please calm the heck down and stop getting so angry over something that really is ultimately unimportant ^^;
I have teamed with Ammon for over 6 months and where he has sometimes disagreed with my choices he has never tried to influence how I build my characters (though I will admit he does come through a bit blunt sometimes, don't take it in a nasty way), as in terms with the corruptor I think what he's trying to say is that there is a reason why the AT's are given secondaries, to compliment there primaries (ie Blasters having strong melee attack secondaries because they can't handle to many hits up close), if someone decides to focus on there primaries and not there secondaries it's up to them, but it will inhibit there gameplay in terms of teaming and in some cases soloing (thats what the buff/de-buff sets are for) but it would improve there gameplay if they balanced the character more with selections from both. In the end it is up to the person but there quality of gaming would improve if they thought out their characters more
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and so far i have to say i'm uninpressed with it. it doesn't last very long, and doesn't seem to give much in the way of defence bonus. Now that could be because i've only got 2 DO Defence on it at the moment, but all i know is that it made no difference to the ammount of healing i had to do.
if anyone has the powers and could give a little advice as to how many slots can make it effective i'd be greatful. thanks
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Isn't Fire Shield a damage resist power, not defense.
Difference is +defense powers (like Forcefield) make you harder to hit but if you are you take full damage. +dmg resist absorb some of the damage when you are hit.
I've teamed with a */Thermal corrupter and it made a noticable difference to my meatbags alright. I'd assume slotting should be 3 +dmg resists anyway (SOs). After that I don't really know.
Well if he'd actually put it like that dipster I don't think many people would take offence :3
In many ways the problem of communication isn't what you say but how you say it.
As I said before though; it's all very well having a balanced template but if everyone did then we'd all be much the same and not everyone finds the 'intended' way much fun.
It's nice to succeed but if you're not having a giggle or enjoying your character as you do so it's a very hollow victory indeed :/
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My highest char (a dark/dark corruptor) is 26 - ok, it's not that high yet, but I've had time to get a decent idea of what's going on. Now, my D/D has Twilight Grasp, a wonderful heal (and with it I can, at the worst, match a /thermal for healing power), but I wouldn't think of using it on decent enemies without Darkest Night debuffing them too.
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Sorry for the offtopic:
lvl40 Ice/Dark, soloing 43s on relentless, never use DN, 3xacc/3xheal TG hits like 95% (and thats probably the most disadvantage of TG, you can never rely on it to save your [censored] when your hitpoints going to zero lol), healing 426.
Started a new fire/rad, gonna see how the healings gonna be with 3x SO. 
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That said if you are in a team and someone give you a good advice wouldnt you be happy for it ?, at least I would and if I knew better/thought I knew better I could get a good conversation out of it.
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To tell you the truth - if I want advice, Ill ask for it.
If I'm not asking, then please don't waste my playing time. I don't have enough of it as is
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And the choice of powers really do matter on how hard/easy a mission end up being and I have yet to meet that many pick up teams that stayed together after getting beaten repeatily in fights against enemies they otherwise had less difficulty with.
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I have (luckily) never had any complaints.
I have a fire/thermal corruptor and my build suits me both in teams and when soloing and it is according to how I enjoy playing the game (blasting and healing ). It is versatile enough for my need I can do damage, buff, heal, rez, and free teammates from holds when need be. I think it works like magic (which is very appropriately my origin).
I really don't care much for spending my gaming time focusing on whether or not my teammates are buffed and therefore it again boils down to how I (and probably a lot of other people) enjoy the game.
Besides: An architect can draw a house no sweat - but more often than not he cant build it!
I dont think the healer syndrome exsists if you dont let it, some corruptors are ex-defenders myself included but the primary kinda gives you another role, as a dark defender you get precious lil time to mop around in teh shadows and empaths were really frantic but the healing aspect of corruptors is secondary here remember.
The new additions of cold and thermals are fab tho i must say, thermal being about as close to a 'healer' as their is but i have been in great teams with no healing at all - makes it harder but you compensate, maybe we got to spoiled having empaths before..
This 'forcing you opinion' thing is gonna get outta hand, its your game play it your way - ask advice if you wanna but no one should force you - i dont see how they can =/
As an Empath Hero playing CoV now im really enjoying my Rad/Thermal Corruptor for actually being able to blast the [censored] out of something and not just do the "expected" heals.
I do have the buffs and heals but IMO Villains should not expect to be healed just take it as a bonus when it arrives.
The AT set-up is more obviously aggressive in Villains and while i enjoy helping out with heals in teams i do not go out of my way when blasting myself to keep such a close eye on everyone's health bars like my Empath does. If all i'm expected to do as a Corruptor is Heal i'd go play Hero's instead.
I do advise at the start of the mish my heals are relatively low power so beware and i do find more in Villains compared Heros it's a lot more a case of "every Villain for himself" , which to me is in keeping with the theme and tone of the game.
Just my thoughts as a new Corruptor. No doubt as i lvl up my heals will become more potent but i hope i don't reach the stage in teams of being "expected" to only heal and buff and not take part in the slaying mayhem 
I have a number of Corruptors current fave is Soviet Super Soldier a Nrg/Kin. I tend to play Corruptors as I see them as blasters with useful secondary skills as oppose to a Defender variant.
I have a heal. I use it. Therefore I am a healer. I might not be a good one but I wouldn't consider not healing if one of my team mates got in trouble. That seems an incredibly cherlish attitude to me.
My new corrupter IS actually built to be a healer / buffer. Basically I was thinking of what Alt I'd love to have running in a duo with my Mastermind main. Figured Dark Kinetics goes really nicely. But this was my decision and I wouldn't expect anyone to turn around and say "You're playing that corrupter like a defender noob" or something. Or if they did I'd use villainous language to make them cry like a wee girl
Corrupters are great that way though. Lots of room to experiment.
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My new corrupter IS actually built to be a healer / buffer. Basically I was thinking of what Alt I'd love to have running in a duo with my Mastermind main. Figured Dark Kinetics goes really nicely. But this was my decision and I wouldn't expect anyone to turn around and say "You're playing that corrupter like a defender noob" or something. Or if they did I'd use villainous language to make them cry like a wee girl
Corrupters are great that way though. Lots of room to experiment.
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Totally agree there, Lmao at your intended punishment tho
There is more room for personalisation with these than most AT's. There are unlikely combo's that work really well, experiment see for yourself.
Yeah you can heal but show 'em what else you can do
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Totally agree there, Lmao at your intended punishment tho
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Villainous Language FTW!
Just remembered. Woke up this morning from a dream where a new Corrupter set was made up of Prodigy songs. So like Firestarter was +def res etc
Me? Addicated? I don't know what you mean
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Just remembered. Woke up this morning from a dream where a new Corrupter set was made up.....
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You know, that's probably not very healthy
Regarding the original topic. Not everyone wants to read a manual before picking up a game, I personally wouldn't expect them to. At high level I'd hope someone has a reasonable knowledge of their set and plays it well, and in general I don't tend to team twice with people who aren't at least trying to contribute something to a team, or people who put their pets before other players. However even with my personal build obsession I find it hard to judge someone too harshly for picking up a game, making a character that looks fun to them, and not knowing the ins, outs and relative merits of all the powers within a couple of weeks of play.
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WoW Ammon... nice. After all the best way to convince someone of your point is to say they're idiots for not agreeing with you isn't it? XD
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I said I couldn't make it a neaderthal issue - were you asking it to be made one? If any neanderthals are reading this (bit difficult without a written language I'm thinking) they might be insulted. How can it insult anyone who is not deciding for themselves that this applies to them? Was it you who thought this thread was advising people to be taking buffs instead of heals, when that has specifically been explained several times that this is about having both? If it is, then yes, if you're asking, I'll think you are stupid on the Forrest Gump proof method (Stupid is as stupid does).
Anyone else is simply being informed of my (admittedly strong) opinion that it isn't an either or question, and can't be made one without being oversimplified. (As Einstein famously put it: "Everything should be made as simple as possible - but no simpler!"). I felt that was an essential point because some of the replies were obviously thinking that this thread was telling them to choose a buff powerset over a healing powerset (force fields instead of empathy it seemed some were thinking) and needed a bit of a nudge that such a choice is not the case.
I actually went out of my way to express that disagreement is fine when I said: "Noone is teling anyone how they must play. What we are trying to do here is educate newer players about strategy methods they may not yet have discovered for themselves."
If anyone is being insulting here, is it not you for continually implying things that have never been said? I actually said its fine to disagree, and where on earth did I claim I was angry?
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Just curious but that corruptor who took 6 blast powers... was he a good damage dealer or were you too busy hollering at him to notice, because he didn't play the AT the way you fanatically believe it should?
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It was hard to say - he spent half the mission on his face asking if anyone had spare awakens. He face-planted 3 times through making the standard 'noob blaster' style mistakes of firing off shots like mad and being surprised that he got the aggro for it. There's no Tankers with taunts to save his hide in CoV.
The team all declared they were taking a break after the mission, and all split, but it turned out they just wanted to lose him, as the team reformed (minus the rad/rad corrupter) straight after.
I know that noone in that team ever wanted to team with him again, which is sad. They could have helped him become more familiar with game mechanics and concepts, with teamplay, and the idea of not pulling a second mob's aggro while the team are all still busy on the first.
They did try a little I think, but he had this mentality that isn't right for any team game. I think you put it into words earlier:
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Here's an idea... how about you concentrate on your character
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After they'd tried to explain why pulling the second mob had gotten him killed, and how dealing with one lot at a time was easier his response was that it was his character and they should mind their own business, and concentrate more on healing him rather than criticising him. (And honestly, it was the mildest criticism to someone who has just pulled a second or third mob into an already hectic fight for the third time in a row I have ever seen on CoH or CoV).
Funny thing was that of course, he was continually shouting at others on how they let him get killed, should heal him faster or protect him more. Guess it was only he that had a character we were all supposed to focus on. He seemed to think that all other players were merely accessories to his game and his fun. Guess that's why he got ditched. 
As you can tell just from the discrete way they decided to lose the guy, even after he'd been such a rude and thoughtless dork, noone wasted their time (or his) on shouting. Once it was clear he wasn't a team player, there was obviously no point in bothering with further advice, never mind shouting at him. They let him do what he liked, and tried to deal with the consequences to the rest of the team. A pretty mature group all in all.
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Feel free to give people advice and share your experience; that's definitely good, but please calm the heck down and stop getting so angry over something that really is ultimately unimportant ^^;
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That's what I am doing, and no matter what you are trying to read into my posts, there is no lack of calm, and certainly no anger. I was laughing as I thought back to that particular guy, with some slight sympathy, but it was so ridiculous it was funny. I can't help the assumptions you make, but I do respectfully ask that if you can't stop yourself from making false assumptions about me, my emotional states, and my motivations, that you at least have the decency to stop posting them as some kind of forum-based defamation of character. Thank you.
If you must hunt out angry people, see if you can figure out which one decided to down-rate me as a poster simply because they don't agree with me. Now there's anger for you.
http://www.savecoh.com/
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Besides: An architect can draw a house no sweat - but more often than not he cant build it!
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Point taken
Fair enough Ammon. One point in talking or even writing is that how you say something is often as important, if not more, than what you actually say
Your posting style is so brusque it's hard not to imagine you being angry ^~
Shame these star thingies don't tell you who give low ratings though; I think it just encourages randoms to give bad ratings merely because they feel like it. I've not given any 1-stars yet as far as I remember but if I do I'll be telling them I did it to their face
As for your point, I didn't really say anything about it being heal vs debuff for a good build. I merely stated that people find one, the other or both either fun or boring and they're just going to do what they want to do. You can advise them and there's nothing wrong with that (though finding a friendlier way of saying it might make people actually listen more ) and your point about it not being buff or heal but the option of both is fair enough.
Problem is I suspect most people aren't doing it as a black or white choice; this is something I covered in my first post. Some people merely find certain playstyles boring and therefore don't incorporate them.
They're not avoiding the buffs to take heals; they're taking heals because they want them and ignoring buffs because they want more active skills.
I'm not sure everyone making that choice is aware how it'll effect their strategy and you'll get some players who will obviously not perform but those who are aware and make the choice with some thought behind it are likely to find ways to compensate using the free power slots they get from not taking the undesired powers.
That's the crux of my point :3
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(though finding a friendlier way of saying it might make people actually listen more )
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I'm not getting involved in your lil debate there folks but i do agree with the above line from Jemma - a lot of ppl could benifit from that advise not just Ammon to whom it was intended. Tho its getting alil heated ther.
Read over what you write before clicking that ok button - think how you'd feel having that said to you? Is what you wrote likely to cause offence, patronise or start a flame war? hmm? then dont as it wastes threads for others if you do. Some ppl will snipe no matter what its in their nature but dont encourage them and if you are that kinda person who likes it think twice purrlease
Bout the stars - yeah shame is doesnt tell you and shame you cant reassing one if you discover the person aint as bad as you thought lol
Right enough of that.....
/em takes mummy voice off
Right back to my point...
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I'm not sure everyone making that choice is aware how it'll effect their strategy and you'll get some players who will obviously not perform but those who are aware and make the choice with some thought behind it are likely to find ways to compensate using the free power slots they get from not taking the undesired powers.
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I agree again, a lot might not think it through when choosing powers and end up with cool names that do lil or nothing or ones that have no long term benifit. (Not everyone is like that of course). I tend to nip Hack's head when choosing; my PvP toons are built for PvP alone the choices reflect that, they may not perform so great in PvE (altho they seem to be doing well), my ice CO has no sheilds so far and is mad for damage and slow but its vice versa for my dark who is more PvE orientated, this is not to say you cant do both but its best to think before clicking 'what do i want this toon to do?'.
Ravenmyst is a prime example (tho shes a hero) she is a dark defender with psionics - totally brilliant in PvE - has the highest heal, debuffs and Fuzzi o'couse but she is mince in PvP unless she has a full team but even then her damage output is embarrassing even after respec for PVP.
Your power choices should reflect how you play in regrads to coruptors you need to ask yourself PvP or PvE or both if I can? and after that do i wanna be a team player/have heals? yes? get shields and heals picked. No? get all the damage you can. Think about travel power too, whats good in PvP might not be good in PvE and which suits a corruptor best? A lil forethought goes a long way me thinks
Just started playing corruptors agains after reading this discussion and remade 3 times before I finally settled on and a ice/ice corruptor for PvP and must admit I have sneaked past shields and taken other powers instead 
That said I think corruptor possibly is the hardest AT to choose powers for since, it can both work as blaster/buffers/healers and debuffers and there isnt room for them all. That said I wish that those that team a lot would put in their team seeking description what type of corruptor they where.
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I think corruptor possibly is the hardest AT to choose powers for since, it can both work as blaster/buffers/healers and debuffers and there isnt room for them all.
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Ain't that the truth! The corrupter is probably the most versatile AT of all, and can be very aggressive, very defensive, or any point of balance in between. I think that is one of the reasons I'm enjoying that AT so much with no less than 4 different variant Corrupters on the go currently.
Also, the powerset choices make more difference to a corrupter (and the same was true of Defenders in CoH of course) to that while 2 characters may be of the same archetype, there is a world of difference between the often Dominator like powers and style of the Dark/Dark corrupter, the 'leverage the team' style of the */Kinetics corrupter, and so forth.
The last thing I'd want to do is lose that diversity. But certain powersets are designed as more 'supportive' and 'team-based' than others. There's a reason that Thermal Radiation has a lot of powers that cannot be cast on yourself, and it isn't therefore a particularly wise choice of powerset for those who mostly prefer to solo. */Radiation or */Dark would be far better for the soloist. Thermal is designed as a team support powerset, that will only attain its full potential in a team-support role.
http://www.savecoh.com/
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That said I think corruptor possibly is the hardest AT to choose powers for since, it can both work as blaster/buffers/healers and debuffers and there isnt room for them all.
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Never a truer word spoken. Defenders are hard enough to make choices about (I've got about 7 potential builds for my D3 that I want to get round to trying on test at some point, including a potentially brutal disorient monster), and with corruptors increased damage output, it is made very hard indeed.
Dead Calm's Defender Manifesto
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That said I think corruptor possibly is the hardest AT to choose powers for since, it can both work as blaster/buffers/healers and debuffers and there isnt room for them all.
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Never a truer word spoken. Defenders are hard enough to make choices about (I've got about 7 potential builds for my D3 that I want to get round to trying on test at some point, including a potentially brutal disorient monster), and with corruptors increased damage output, it is made very hard indeed.
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and wgen ur an altaholic like my its a total nightmare, my slots are held up with various builds of corruptors trying to find a perfect build for me.
I just had to make a db/dm, dm is queen of defendersso i just had to keep ravens memory alive hehe.
got an Ice/cold built solely for Pvp which is massive fun and rad/kin which is great too - oh and a fire therm...
Bah wheres Drek when u need him LMAO.
I'm thinking of starting Altaholics anonymous......
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imagine your teammate has a total of 300 hit points of life. The alpha-strike is doing 305 pts of damage. No matter how many heals you have, and no matter how you slot them, how will you heal that? All the pure healer can do is rez him, and he got debt. But even a mere 10% damage reduction would have saved his life, and prevented debt.
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That's not about whether it is more fun to heal or not. It is the simplest of strategy. Without the shields, no matter how fast or well you can heal, the squishies in the team can be one-shotted.
The shields give you the chance (and still sometimes a very slim, edge of the seat one) to get a heal in while your teammate is on that tiny fragment of life, before the next shot comes in. A fragment of life he'd have not had without the shields.
This isn't about buffing instead of healing. Its about the fact that you should be doing both if your powerset provides the capabilities for both. It is about waking people up to the strategy that being able to raise a dead one-shotted teammate isn't as strategically clever as preventing him being able to be one-shotted.
I'm sorry if that's too complex a concept for anyone to understand. I'm sorry I can't make this moronically simple like "heal good, buff bad" but I can't. This isn't a game for neanderthals, so its concepts can't be brought down to that level.
It is all about strategy. The corrupter who knows that buffs and debuffs can be more useful than heals is strategically superior to the corrupter who only bothered with one heal out of a rich and varied powerset and worse still, can't even see what's wrong with that.
Noone is teling anyone how they must play. What we are trying to do here is educate newer players about strategy methods they may not yet have discovered for themselves. Buffs and Debuffs offer more strategic options, and many of us that have posted here are more likely to want to team with a player who understands that than a player who slotted one basic heal all the way to level 20.
For goodness sake, I was teamed with a Rad/Rad the other day who'd taken every one of the six attacks he could have had, and had nothing from his secondaries but his basic healing aura power, and he'd HAD to take that when making the character at lev 1!
The guy obviously has no clue of the difference those Rad debuffs will make to any team, and how quickly and easily any boss falls with those on him. Hopefully a few people like that will see the thread and give the less obvious powers a try.
http://www.savecoh.com/