Powers landing after defeat
By
Adult_Swim,
Posted on: 2009-07-24 11:53 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I had a crey still rat-ta-tat-tatting me after he was down last evening.
Yeah I've noticed this, you're not imagining things.
Nop, always been this way. Effects are calculated after interrupt windows, or at activation for powers without interrupts. Hold, knock back, even killing the foe wont stop the effects from landing if the to-hit was successful.
Have been in a few double KOS due to this in the past.
Its especially frustrating with a Stalker. You AS out of hide and one shot your target, THEN your dead target turns around and clobbers you!
Oh well, the life (and death) of a stalker is not an easy one.
"I used to make diddly squat, but I've been with the company for 16 years and have had plenty of great raises. Now I just make squat" -- Me
Pediatric brain tumors are the #1 cause of cancer related deaths in children.
I liken this to heroic bloodshed, where both hero and villain perish together, i.e., Arthur and Modred 
53 Bots/FF/Mace Mastermind | 53 NRG/FF/Electricity Defender | 50 Time/Dual Pistols/Soul Defender | 50 Demons/FF/Mace Mastermind | 51 Necro/Dark/Soul Mastermind | 50 Thugs/Time/Mace Mastermind | 50 Ice/Ice/Arctic Tanker | 50 Plant/Rad/Earth Controller | 50 Illusion/Trick Arrow Controller | 50 Gravity/Force Field Controller
Yes, I like Force Fields.
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Its especially frustrating with a Stalker. You AS out of hide and one shot your target, THEN your dead target turns around and clobbers you!
Oh well, the life (and death) of a stalker is not an easy one.
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The thing i do have notice happening lately, though, is that foes will start acting even before my attack hits them. I can be at one mile away and use a ranged hold, they still get one shot because they react as soon as I start casting. THAT is a bit annoying. And by a bit i mean a lot.
Conversely, I've noticed my attacks that didn't finish animating before death still land as well.
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Nop, always been this way. Effects are calculated after interrupt windows, or at activation for powers without interrupts. Hold, knock back, even killing the foe wont stop the effects from landing if the to-hit was successful.
Have been in a few double KOS due to this in the past.
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I've had double KO's as well. However, for any kind of significant duration (half, 3/4 sec) after death both my and NPC powers would terminate and have no affect when they landed. Most notable place for this was thunderstrike/total focus off crey tanks (the tohit is rolled at roughly the same up the leap starts) and medium-long ranged attacks with "slow" projectiles.
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I have been playing a mid range fire blaster recently, and I noticed that even after defeat NPC power effects are landing. I am taking damage or mez from defeated foes. Up until recently this wasn't the case afaik; if a power was still animating or the effect had not reached you, it was "canceled".
Has anyone else noticed this/am I imagining things?
I mentioned it to some people on global channels and UberGuy mentioned that if this had changed, the current behavior of repairmen on the STF could be related.
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Yes it's been that way ever since I15 launched and I too believe that the repairman behavior is related.
It's especially noticeable with Rain of Arrows. Pre-patch I could fire, the mobs would notify as soon as the RoA psuedo pet spawned, they would que up a ranged attack and begin the animation then the Rain would hit, they'd die mid animation and do no damage.
Post patch even after they die mid animation the attacks that they began still complete and they still do damage. Solo against a swarm of 10 or so minions in a hazard zone I'm getting ripped up pretty badly post mob defeats as opposed to pre-patch where only 1 or maybe 2 attacks from the lieutenants in the spawn would land.
It's not lag either and combat events tab clearly shows the damage landing after mob defeat. On mob attack powers that have long animations (2 seconds plus) if they had the attack queued even a server tick or 2 before defeat they still get the attack off, and it still does damage even though the mob has been defeated for several seconds. When spawns are close I've had damage from a previous spawn land while alphaing the next spawn.
I've bugged the behavior and posted it in the bugs forum.
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Nop, always been this way. Effects are calculated after interrupt windows, or at activation for powers without interrupts. Hold, knock back, even killing the foe wont stop the effects from landing if the to-hit was successful.
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This is not absolutely untrue. It cannot possibly be true. I have experienced probably thousands of events where a foe has animated an attack, my character has played the "I was hit" animation, sometimes including sparks or embedded arrows, knives, etc., but I took no damage because the foe was defeated after they began their animation but before the damage was delivered.
If there was no hit animation, I could accept that this wasn't the case and the game was just playing the animation late. But if my character animated a hit effect, the game had clearly already determined that the blow had landed.
I distinctly remember this changing very early in the game's history. It used to be that foes always hit you with parting shots. People even used to complain about it on the forums. I distinctly remember it clearly changing at some point, and my being very grateful for it.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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The thing i do have notice happening lately, though, is that foes will start acting even before my attack hits them. I can be at one mile away and use a ranged hold, they still get one shot because they react as soon as I start casting. THAT is a bit annoying. And by a bit i mean a lot.
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Is that just when you miss, or even when you hit? Because it's always been like that for [edit] misses.
In either case, they have really [censored]'d the AI a lot lately, and it's very annoying. Until the most recent patch, fleeing bosses spawned and immediately started running, before taking any damage and before any buddy in their spawn was defeated.
Edit2: This is one of those times that the censor makes it look like I said something far worse than I did.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I am pretty sure this "taking damage after NPC dies" is pretty recent.
In fact, I believe it just appeared with I15 release.
Is this a hidden way to make this game harder? It is mildly annoying but not game-breaking.
Has any dev commented on this? A bug? An intended add-on?
I am 99.9999% sure the mobs wouldn't deal damage if they die before their attacks come out. Rain of Arrow is a very good example.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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The thing i do have notice happening lately, though, is that foes will start acting even before my attack hits them. I can be at one mile away and use a ranged hold
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Char, at least the blaster epic version, has done this for a very long time.
Agreed with all. This is new with i15, rather annoying, and shouldn't be the case as far as I know.
However, it should be noted that a DoT effect, such as a Family/Council/etc. machine gun, has always continued its full animation/damage output, but that's only if you killed the target mid-animation, not before it even started.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
Personally, I actually like this "bug" or "change", whichever it is. Adds a bit more challenge and it IS two-way street. It always ticked me off if I died mid-animation on a final blow, causing me to not kill the target as I died. Now, I can. Granted, I don't die very often, but when I do I try to go fighting and this lets me do so.
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Personally, I actually like this "bug" or "change", whichever it is. Adds a bit more challenge and it IS two-way street. It always ticked me off if I died mid-animation on a final blow, causing me to not kill the target as I died. Now, I can. Granted, I don't die very often, but when I do I try to go fighting and this lets me do so.
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I hate it. If I defeat a foe before he finishes the swinging a weapon or pulling a trigger, it's usually ridiculous that he hits me regardless of his own falling down or being sent flying. Especially when I'm at range.
I mean, seriously, you prefer it works like this so you can land a fading blow when we probably defeat hundreds if not thousands of foes between our own defeats? How does that make sense?
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Even on my squishies, I don't have any issues with this new feature/bug and didn't even notice until I killed someone in PvP with Total Focus after I got taken down myself. Granted, I have a cautious, reckless play style (if that makes any sense), so I tend to take a lot of damage anyway, but usually survive the fight as well. The notable exception would be when I try to tank on my Controller because the current Tank is either too scared or too slow.
Though arguably, it's also silly is a projectile already in flight, say one of those heat-seeking boulders, and does no damage because the guy who threw it crumbled before it reached its target. Or if they start spraying flames, bullets, radioactive gases, explode, or what have you. Prior to this, that was silly and the other powers made sense. Now, it's just reversed. That will only be fixed if the Devs make some sort of flag that sets powers to still be able to do damage after death and the others not.
But, mainly, I enjoy this mostly for the added challenge, not so I can whap someone when I occasionally go down to a mob.
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Nop, always been this way. Effects are calculated after interrupt windows, or at activation for powers without interrupts. Hold, knock back, even killing the foe wont stop the effects from landing if the to-hit was successful.
Have been in a few double KOS due to this in the past.
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It hasn't always been this way. I repeatedly took my Archery/Energy blaster into Brickstown and mowed down entire spawns with RoA, and on every occasion, every critter would attack before being defeated, but all of the defeated critters' attacks would deal 0 damage. The damage was removed before the attacks landed. I even pointed this out in numerous Archery and RoA threads.
Last night I was getting shot and blasted by critters which I had defeated before their attack animations had started. That's completely opposite of how it was working previously.
I don't know exactly what has changed, I don't know when it changed, but something has changed.
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The thing i do have notice happening lately, though, is that foes will start acting even before my attack hits them. I can be at one mile away and use a ranged hold, they still get one shot because they react as soon as I start casting. THAT is a bit annoying. And by a bit i mean a lot.
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Is that just when you miss, or even when you hit? Because it's always been like that for [edit] misses.
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It's happening on hits now. I've seen it too. It's most frequent for me when I'm using Acid Arrow. The instant I hit that key, the critters turn around and look right at me. Then they start shooting or running toward me before the debuff hits.
I've even had this happen when the character was Stealthed. And again, this is occurring with valid hits, not mixed hit and miss or all misses. Single target, start the activation for Acid, instant mob notification even on a hit.
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It's happening on hits now. I've seen it too. It's most frequent for me when I'm using Acid Arrow. The instant I hit that key, the critters turn around and look right at me. Then they start shooting or running toward me before the debuff hits.
I've even had this happen when the character was Stealthed. And again, this is occurring with valid hits, not mixed hit and miss or all misses. Single target, start the activation for Acid, instant mob notification even on a hit.
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That bites.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
There was behavior similar to this around ... issue 6 I believe. I remember jumping into a group of enemies, using a nuke, and it would go off no matter what. They were helpless to kill me and stop it. There were a lot of silly things players could do if they were willing to accept a little debt. Then the next issue it no longer worked.
I think it's better to cancel powers upon defeat. It keeps behavior more honest that way.
The Bacon Compels You.
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I think it's better to cancel powers upon defeat. It keeps behavior more honest that way.
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I agree. Right now, it's really just annoying my new Stalker, which I'm actually trying to enjoy (found they're a real grind until the 20s, more so than other ATs), and she keeps on getting smacked by people she's dispatched. Not so much fun for a sneaky squishy in melee.
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Nop, always been this way. Effects are calculated after interrupt windows, or at activation for powers without interrupts. Hold, knock back, even killing the foe wont stop the effects from landing if the to-hit was successful.
Have been in a few double KOS due to this in the past.
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Nope, you are definitely wrong on this one. My Blaster has saved her own [censored] on numerous occasions and from incalculable amount of damage by attrition due to the fact she could often sneak a blow in before an enemy attack could land it's damage portion.
Actually, IIRC, the history on this was that they used to be able to hit you after death, I think about pre issue 2 era? Lots of discussion on the forums lead to fixing this. (Another, possibly not-exactly related things changed around i3 or i4 in that it used to be impossible to "overkill" a creature with single target attacks as well. If you had an you could try to queue the power but it wouldn't fire.)
The "no damage after death" rule stood for a long, long time. Plenty of incidental forum discussions rose up about it with people whining that their last gasp should hit or their rain aoe power should stay if they die etc.
If I had to guess when this rule was reversed, bug or not, I would say, before Anniversary?
Edit: Oops, I see Uberguy said nearly the same thing. Sorry.
Additional Edit: I have been noticing rare server hiccups when two attacks appear to be nigh-simultaneous with one of them dealing a defeat to the other target. It's very rare (and could be coincidence) because it's amazingly difficult to make it truly as simultaneous as can be. I wonder if it was something done to lighten load on the servers that have been suffering with all the AE play? Probably not.
I'm not sure when it happened, I don't think it happened until after i14. It has been a while since I have been solo on something squishy without a lot of mez though.
I had a vague idea that perhaps oil slicks issues with failing to ignite could be related to 'powers fail after defeat'. I don't remember seeing any mention of it being worked on again, though.
I have been playing a mid range fire blaster recently, and I noticed that even after defeat NPC power effects are landing. I am taking damage or mez from defeated foes. Up until recently this wasn't the case afaik; if a power was still animating or the effect had not reached you, it was "canceled".
Has anyone else noticed this/am I imagining things?
I mentioned it to some people on global channels and UberGuy mentioned that if this had changed, the current behavior of repairmen on the STF could be related.