I think both sides were right.
In PvE changes are made and adjustments can be made by an entire community almost overnight. The changes made to Hamidon a few issues back comes to mind.
PvP was changed dramatically, but many zone PvPers are still hell bent on this arena/Solo fotm mentality.... Instead of a "team fotm" mentality.
before ED, just about any and every guide out there listed the standards of 1-2 Acc/5-6 Damage... 6 slotting rech and recovery in hasten and stamina etc... It's almost like the devs had to force us to slot better and get more out our powers by introducing IOs and capping stadard enhancement bonuses.
They've done the same to PVP in a way.... Many pvpers could not see what adjustments were needed in Zone pvp to make it fun again... many didn't even try to see. So naturally things just graviatate towards the builds that can solo the best or stand up to more than 2 opponents at a time. This isn't the devs fault imo... it's ours. We've gimped our ownselves by believing and stating certain sets are useless and gimped in pvp... because these beliefs and statements are based on solo builds instead of team builds.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
[ QUOTE ]
I think both sides were right.
In PvE changes are made and adjustments can be made by an entire community almost overnight. The changes made to Hamidon a few issues back comes to mind.
PvP was changed dramatically, but many zone PvPers are still hell bent on this arena/Solo fotm mentality.... Instead of a "team fotm" mentality.
before ED, just about any and every guide out there listed the standards of 1-2 Acc/5-6 Damage... 6 slotting rech and recovery in hasten and stamina etc... It's almost like the devs had to force us to slot better and get more out our powers by introducing IOs and capping stadard enhancement bonuses.
They've done the same to PVP in a way.... Many pvpers could not see what adjustments were needed in Zone pvp to make it fun again... many didn't even try to see. So naturally things just graviatate towards the builds that can solo the best or stand up to more than 2 opponents at a time. This isn't the devs fault imo... it's ours. We've gimped our ownselves by believing and stating certain sets are useless and gimped in pvp... because these beliefs and statements are based on solo builds instead of team builds.
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Yeah, lemme know when Sonics and Kins are useful again, then you might have a point.
The changes of I13 were supposed to eliminate FotMs. Instead, they've done just the opposite - because everything is supposedly all the same, those sets that are even just a bit better than their counterparts are simply the best option. They've gone from "trying to eliminate FotMs" to "making FotMs even more important for success, and making less builds viable in the process." Thanks to DR and heal decay, the role of buffers in a team setting has been severely reduced. That is why you see more "solo-oriented" or "damage-oriented" builds - not because the players necessarily want to, but because they've been shoehorned into playing them by the rules imposed on them.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Much of what you said make sense, and I can agree with some of the points you make. I can agree that zone pvp for the most part has reached an inevitable state of FoTM-ness, but I disagree that such a state is mainly the casue of I13 changes... I think it was a popular choice made by many PvPers cause it was the closest thing to what was being done before. Things could have gone another way I believe.
If you ask me, even though support toons were reduced in effectiveness... their role requirement and need in zone PvP was increased... This I think is the part many missed. Not wanting to be dependant on support, many chose to roll toons that required support the least, and in doing so created a toon that is least likely to aid other teammates... which leaves that support toon out there to get farmed repatedly.... and course makes them want to switch/reroll to a toon that can hold its own without support as well.
I believe the way the rules are set up in PvP atm encourage a mentality not far from the one we have in PvE. The AT descriptions seem to apply in PvP zones almost exactly as they do in PvE, and I don't think that's unfair. I find it unfortunate that so many refuse to acknowledge those descriptions. ( true story: I teamed with a Earth/Stormy, a Sonic/EM, and a TA/Archer not long ago. I was on an Ill/FFielder. The blaster would SS/SJ off to kill again and again... and would die each time. Myself and the other two supportting toons stood near one another and defeating everything that got near... after telling the blaster to gather a couple times he mocked us for offering no buffs and quit team after dying for the umpteeth time... )
They reduced the effectiveness of many support builds... but that just means you need more of them, not less. Before I13, "more" was OP'ed fr the most part. Changes made I beleive had much less to do with the effects of 1-2 support toons in a zone and more to do with dealing with 10-12 support toons in a zone.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
Please explain dr and the fact that dmg is now related to animation times.
Why would "More" support help when each layer of support renders the previous one more and more ineffective.
Not all support is the same for one.
Each layer is rendered more ineffective when it's the same type of support no?
Fire Shields + cold shields + sonic shields + FF bubbles would not = the same exact buffs nor would the combination of these buff go unnoticed.
Frostwork +Sonic shields + Speed boost + IR and ID?
Artic Fog + Steamy mist + Shadowfall... while standing in the AoE patches these sets offer?
Examples could go on and on... not everything is about healing repeatedly. If we as a PvP community consider a set to be the "best" at supportting in PvP and just try to multiply that set several times, (see FoTM) we gimp ourselves in Zone PvP... we fail to look into potent combinations of support that will equal that which we thought was lost.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
lol
Shenanigans
LotD - JaL - POWT/SMD - SoCo - AJs
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Not all support is the same for one.
Each layer is rendered more ineffective when it's the same type of support no?
Fire Shields + cold shields + sonic shields + FF bubbles would not = the same exact buffs nor would the combination of these buff go unnoticed.
Frostwork +Sonic shields + Speed boost + IR and ID?
Artic Fog + Steamy mist + Shadowfall... while standing in the AoE patches these sets offer?
Examples could go on and on... not everything is about healing repeatedly. If we as a PvP community consider a set to be the "best" at supportting in PvP and just try to multiply that set several times, (see FoTM) we gimp ourselves in Zone PvP... we fail to look into potent combinations of support that will equal that which we thought was lost.
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Here's something you don't seem to grasp: just like in PvE, buffer synergy used to be important in PvP - it's more effective to stack the same type of buff until you reach a cap, and then add other buffs, instead of trying to go for a mixture (in the case of pre-I13 PvP that usually meant stacking +res until you got to the cap, and then adding on a bit of +def, in terms of survivability). Now, it doesn't make sense to stack the same types of buffs, and it also doesn't make sense to stack different kinds of buffs. Why stack Therm/Sonic shields when the first one adds maybe 4-5% resists, and the rest are just there for show (3 Therms on my team in RV the other night and my resistances went from 40% to 47% with the 3 stacked shields)? Why stack FF/Cold shields when the first one adds maybe 10% defense (need I remind you that without elusivity, defense is largely worthless thanks to DR?)? The only meaningful contribution a buffer can make in terms of survivability is a few percent here and there, unless you're talking about a non-squishy AT, which doesn't really need the buffs in the first place. That's why even with DR and heal decay the only buffs that really matter anymore are +HP and +damage - because that's all PvP is now.
But, I'll humor you and take a look at the examples of non-same-type buffs you listed.
* Therm + Sonic + Cold + FF. Good luck finding a Sonic or FF in a PvP zone these days. Sonics are worthless because the shields grant a negligible amount of extra resistance, the bubble no longer provides mez protection, Clarity is useless, and the cage lasts 4 seconds (8 seconds if you're a Controller). FFers are worthless largely for the same reason (though their AoE repel toggle can be useful for messing with Stalkers). You might see a Therm, and you might see a Cold, but most won't have their shields because again, they're making a more meaningful contribution by simply giving up on that and focusing on damage and debuffs.
* Frostworks + Sonic + SB + ID/IR: Frostworks is somewhat useful but its full functionality is largely wasted when most PvP builds are only a few hundred HP off the cap anyways. Again, haven't seen a Sonic around much since I13. Kins are very much worthless other than debuff and disruption - unresisted travel suppression took care of that. These days you might see a Kin tossing around ID to help with knockback or TP foe.
* Arctic Fog + Steamy Mist + Shadow Fall: the +res and +def get DR'd, and relying on those as part of your survivability is kind of stupid especially given the fact that moving around means you'll often be outside the radius of those powers. Can you turtle? Sure, but you won't get kills that way. Turtling is for MM huddles and pre-I13 Storm teams.
You don't know what you're talking about, and I'd be very surprised if you said you played any sort of support role before I13. So please, spare us your wisdom and let us continue to demonstrate why buffs by and large suck now.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
I see. A percent here and there only matters when your getting it from spending fortunes on IOs, right? It seems one can argue that IOs and set bonuses are required for a good PvP build, and at the same time argue that percentages here and there that offer much of the same bonus mean nothing. Go figure.
You can argue the meaningless-ness of different types of buffs easily if you leave out other effects found in each buff. I admit I just listed those combos out of my head. I didn't put in on paper to analyze what percent of resist and defense each would offer or add. This is where your focus seems to be, while mine was on the protection from end drain and slows, fear, confuse, the stacked debuffs and repel, the recharge boost and tp protection, stacked stealth, and so on.
I find it quite odd that you speak of a zone PvP strategy so fixed:
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...buffer synergy used to be important in PvP - it's more effective to stack the same type of buff until you reach a cap, and then add other buffs, instead of trying to go for a mixture (in the case of pre-I13 PvP that usually meant stacking +res until you got to the cap, and then adding on a bit of +def, in terms of survivability).
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You think it's more effective to avoid a mixture of buffs in zone PvP... where the makeup of your opponents can and often do change dramatically in a very short time? Do you think that the fact it is no longer required of buffers to get you to capped def or res is a sign that they offer more than just def and res under the new post I13 system?
You make it seem like every player that enters a PvP zone is fully IO'ed out with each +HP accolade and enough set bonuses to cover any gaps in their build regardless of who may be in the zone. You also make it seem that finding security and surviving in a tight group is somewhat counter productive in zone PvP... as if working as a team to defend is less fun than working as a team of soloists to attack. Actuallly, you make it seem quite clear that you make almost no distinction between arena and zone PvP in terms of your style of play. Support isn't always about making the kills... it's about making the kills easy for those who specialize in such a thing, and keeping the retalliation to a minimum.
I base my opinion on my personal experience having PvPed in this game since they introduced it. I've been playing support toons since then as well. Your view, like mine is based on the same I'm sure. I have no desire to argue about the usefulness of an entire class (support) There are no facts to support usefulness in such a broad way. You may turn to numbers to prove a controlled theory of effectiveness, but I do not see how it applies outside of strictly controlled tests or perhaps even arena PvP.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
Getting one or two percent from an IO is one thing. Getting one or two percent from a whole player is something else.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Everything you listed there is affected by DR. Anything from any player that is not a heal, but a shield, is pretty much DR'ed to NOTHING. Even heals can't be relied on anymore--even if you have 10 Emps on you, Heal Suppression will still kick in.
You don't seem to understand that at this moment, in this game that the Devs have changed to make everything playable, they have destroyed the Support class. Any and all buffs are negligible thanks to DR, and that 1-2% from an entire player who is solely based on boosting those is pointless. More damage would be much more useful--which is why we see so few Support toons anymore.
22 50's in Bio
@Siphonic
RIP PX, GMW, and the game that used to be fun.
Still playing for reasons unknown.
Pointless? Why? An entire support class is destroyed because so many only appreciate 1 to 2 aspects of that class?
Because the percentages aren't what they were before I13 right? Because squishies should benefit from the maximum (PvE) percentages on top of the 40% resist they already get? Do you really beleive that there is a support toon that is "solely" based on only one type of buff? I think many of us haven't stepped far enough away from I12 to look at I13 PvP from a differnt angle.
I get it. Really I do. We want support toons to be able to turn us into PvP gods and godesses again... and we shouldn't have to stay near that support toon to get the maximum benefit. We feel one buffer's contribution to a team should completely turn the tide and allow us to act foolish, wreckless and be 100% offensive with no worries about getting hit and/or hurt. Buffers and support shouldn't have to *think* about who to buff... who *needs* the shileds more, whether it's the right time to heal, or who isn't at the cap. No... it should just be spammable support powers than offer the ability to put them on auto and win. No, sorry that ship has sailed guys. It's not the end... it's the beginning.
DR does not affect everyone the same. It causes a reduced ammount of buff for the toons that already have enough of that particular buff. Another way of saying this is DR will allow support toons to provide the most def and res to those who lack them the most. For those builds that require def and res the least, well those toons may have to look at, appreciate, and take advantage of other contributions offered by these support toons. This isn't that hard to adjust to.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
You really don't get it.
Why would you bring a Support toon, that adds maybe 1-2% defense or res, which means not even resisting one extra attack than you would have without the shield, when you could bring more Damage to the team, and have that slot be filled by something much more effective and worth the slot?
I don't want a support toon to turn me into a PvP god. To start with, I want a support toon to be worth the team slot, and not someone bringing absolutely nothing positive to the team.
You also don't seem to understand what PvP is now, and pretty much always has been in a team/zone setting. Damage, damage, and more damage. When shields add 1-2% resistance or defense, what are they bringing to a team? Pre i13, they were actually something to resist the damage, to get an extra second of being able to pop Hibernate and evade the spike, now they don't do that. You say they are bringing other resistance--End Drain: which is rarely used, and usually it doesn't protect against Heat Exhaustion, which is really the most end drain you will see in a Team setting, Teleportation Resist, which again isn't all that useful when that's all the AT is bringing. There are many more, but they are useless when it is adding a negligible amount.
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Another way of saying this is DR will allow support toons to provide the most def and res to those who lack them the most.
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This is right in a way, and completely wrong in another. Yes, it will allow them to bring more defense and resist to those who lack them, but no one lacks resistance anymore. Even squishies have 40% base, and adding in more resistance will get you up to, what, 45%? (woo hoo, a whopping 5% damage resistance). I agree that support toons should provide buffs that others lack, but when they are providing 2% of a particular buff, that isn't support, that's just lolzy.
22 50's in Bio
@Siphonic
RIP PX, GMW, and the game that used to be fun.
Still playing for reasons unknown.
It's not that support is useless now. It's just that certain buffs got marginalized. The other aspects of support--debuff, disruption, end drain, -travel, mez protection (yes, mez protection) and heals--are still extremely useful.
For FF and Sonic, unfortunately, that's nearly a death sentence because they are so one-dimensional. Other defender primaries have had their roles redefined but can still make a serious support contribution.
Oh. Well, I consider support and disruption two different roles. Most disruption toons are still viable, just not as viable as they were before.
In my opinion, Heals aren't as useful as they were, however.
When AP, a power that takes health from you, and then makes it so you can't heal after it, heals the same amount as a Respite, I don't think they are where they should be.
22 50's in Bio
@Siphonic
RIP PX, GMW, and the game that used to be fun.
Still playing for reasons unknown.
I sure appreciate those FF Bubbles and Sonic +res sheilds on my /Regen Scrapper. But then again, he doesn't have much resistance or defense to start with so DR doesn't hit it too badly.
an empath is still really good to heal with but it does nothing a therm cannot do and the therm has good debuffs that really help a battle. the emp can hit powerboost and take a blaster from 1 hit point to almost full health with absorb pain. the therm version of that power does the same thing. so for healing others the best heal to get is the one with big green numbers. the auras are for yourself and they will get you killed quick.
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I get it. Really I do. We want support toons to be able to turn us into PvP gods and godesses again... and we shouldn't have to stay near that support toon to get the maximum benefit.
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No you [censored] idiot.
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Because the percentages aren't what they were before I13 right? Because squishies should benefit from the maximum (PvE) percentages on top of the 40% resist they already get? Do you really beleive that there is a support toon that is "solely" based on only one type of buff? I think many of us haven't stepped far enough away from I12 to look at I13 PvP from a differnt angle.
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Just as an aside, that 40% resist that squishies get? That gets hit by DR too. It gets dropped down to around 26% or so. My defender, who with her APP shield has 65% resist in PvE, has around 30% in PvP. That's WITH the free resists I get for being a squishy in a PvP zone. My /Pain mastermind, who has 75% smash/lethal in PvE? 30% in PvP. And she doesn't get the 'squishy shield', since apparently MMs aren't considered squishies.
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I get it. Really I do. We want support toons to be able to turn us into PvP gods and godesses again... and we shouldn't have to stay near that support toon to get the maximum benefit. We feel one buffer's contribution to a team should completely turn the tide and allow us to act foolish, wreckless and be 100% offensive with no worries about getting hit and/or hurt. Buffers and support shouldn't have to *think* about who to buff... who *needs* the shileds more, whether it's the right time to heal, or who isn't at the cap. No... it should just be spammable support powers than offer the ability to put them on auto and win. No, sorry that ship has sailed guys. It's not the end... it's the beginning.
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Actually, no, I don't think you get it. It's not that people want support characters to "turn them into gods". They (and I, as a player of support characters) want support characters to actually MATTER. If my arsenal of buffs is only giving people a tiny FRACTION of what they're giving someone in PvE, something needs to be looked at. When my Therm corr's shields grant 22-23% resist in PvE, but only 2-3% in PvP? That's broken. The fact that if I have heals, I can get two, MAYBE three heals off before my heals are rendered completely useless is broken. Why don't peoples' ATTACKS suffer from DR, too? If my healing is getting weaker each time I use it, why aren't attacks weakened each time they're used? Seems like that would be fair, right?
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DR does not affect everyone the same. It causes a reduced ammount of buff for the toons that already have enough of that particular buff. Another way of saying this is DR will allow support toons to provide the most def and res to those who lack them the most. For those builds that require def and res the least, well those toons may have to look at, appreciate, and take advantage of other contributions offered by these support toons. This isn't that hard to adjust to.
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Actually, it hits the people who DON'T have high resists/defense the hardest. You know, the support/squishies. Those are the people who are impacted most by DR, since their DR "caps" are skewed to be extremely low. The people who get the biggest benefit are the ones who DON'T need it the most. Tanks, stalkers, scrappers, and brutes get the biggest benefit out of buffs, while the squishies (the ones who have innately LOWER resists) get a tiny fraction of the normal buff amount.
I'm not even a hardcore PvPer, and I despise the i13 system. It's turned PvP into a pure game of "who can spam the most damage the fastest". That's all it is now. Before, if someone had support, you could try and time your damage spikes to drop them between their healing, ply them with enough debuffs to overcome their buffed resist/def, etc. Now? Spam damage. They'll die. Because nobody can keep them up long enough, due to DR and HD.
PvP used to be more fun, as a support character. I felt like I could make a real difference. Now? People barely notice I'm there, save for the "hey, a defender, free kill!" moments where someone takes a second or two to gank me. Since if I try to fight back, I'll just die anyway (low damage, low resists), and if I try to heal myself, heal decay kicks in and my heals become worthless, while the person fighting me just has to keep spamming damage until I die. And if I try to run? Too bad, they just keep hitting me, and my movement is suppressed, so I can't flee. If I heal, I get suppressed too.
Zone PvP is a joke right now, imo. The devs turned it into a game of FOTM damage-spamming. Whee?
The Mastermind Project
Leveling every primary/secondary to 50!
50: Bot/FF, Bot/Dark, Ninja/Trap, Merc/Pain, Necro/Dark, Thug/Dark
Works in Progress: Thug/TA, Merc/Poison, Thug/Pain, Ninja/Pain, Thug/Storm
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Pointless? Why? An entire support class is destroyed because so many only appreciate 1 to 2 aspects of that class?
Because the percentages aren't what they were before I13 right? Because squishies should benefit from the maximum (PvE) percentages on top of the 40% resist they already get? Do you really beleive that there is a support toon that is "solely" based on only one type of buff? I think many of us haven't stepped far enough away from I12 to look at I13 PvP from a differnt angle.
I get it. Really I do. We want support toons to be able to turn us into PvP gods and godesses again... and we shouldn't have to stay near that support toon to get the maximum benefit. We feel one buffer's contribution to a team should completely turn the tide and allow us to act foolish, wreckless and be 100% offensive with no worries about getting hit and/or hurt. Buffers and support shouldn't have to *think* about who to buff... who *needs* the shileds more, whether it's the right time to heal, or who isn't at the cap. No... it should just be spammable support powers than offer the ability to put them on auto and win. No, sorry that ship has sailed guys. It's not the end... it's the beginning.
DR does not affect everyone the same. It causes a reduced ammount of buff for the toons that already have enough of that particular buff. Another way of saying this is DR will allow support toons to provide the most def and res to those who lack them the most. For those builds that require def and res the least, well those toons may have to look at, appreciate, and take advantage of other contributions offered by these support toons. This isn't that hard to adjust to.
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I cannot read this and honestly believe that you have PvP'd.
What. The. [censored].
People complained because "Waaaaah the other team's Sonics and Therms are giving +res and we can't do enough damage!" So everyone said "Hey! Let's give all the squishies free resists, so that Sonic and Therm shields are worthless! That'll teach 'em!"
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
[ QUOTE ]
Oh. Well, I consider support and disruption two different roles. Most disruption toons are still viable, just not as viable as they were before.
In my opinion, Heals aren't as useful as they were, however.
When AP, a power that takes health from you, and then makes it so you can't heal after it, heals the same amount as a Respite, I don't think they are where they should be.
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Well, that's kind of exaggerated. Assuming a worst case of massive incoming damage, the first absorb pain is full strength healing for well over 1k and will top most targets back to 100% hp, the second AP will be hit by heal decay but still hits for hundreds more than a respite. The third one will be pretty weak though if you hit pbu for it it's not too bad.
Is this "less useful" than it was before heal decay? Well, yeah. However, getting your hp bar tripled up isn't exactly "weak" either. If you still die after that, then gg to the people that killed you, they earned it.
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the therm version of [absorb poin] does the same thing
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Therm single target heal hits for about a third of absorb pain. That's not the "same thing" by any stretch of the imagination.
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Now? People barely notice I'm there, save for the "hey, a defender, free kill!" moments where someone takes a second or two to gank me. Since if I try to fight back, I'll just die anyway (low damage, low resists), and if I try to heal myself, heal decay kicks in and my heals become worthless, while the person fighting me just has to keep spamming damage until I die. And if I try to run? Too bad, they just keep hitting me, and my movement is suppressed, so I can't flee. If I heal, I get suppressed too.
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When any random person who decides to kill you succeeds and you can't escape if you want, then you need to revisit your build and incorporate some more survivability into it.
If escape is your intent, you should almost always escape from one attacker. More than half the time you can avoid two. Three or more? Well, with that many people focused on you I don't know why they shouldn't reasonably expect to get a kill.
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Oh. Well, I consider support and disruption two different roles. Most disruption toons are still viable, just not as viable as they were before.
In my opinion, Heals aren't as useful as they were, however.
When AP, a power that takes health from you, and then makes it so you can't heal after it, heals the same amount as a Respite, I don't think they are where they should be.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, that's kind of exaggerated. Assuming a worst case of massive incoming damage, the first absorb pain is full strength healing for well over 1k and will top most targets back to 100% hp, the second AP will be hit by heal decay but still hits for hundreds more than a respite. The third one will be pretty weak though if you hit pbu for it it's not too bad.
Is this "less useful" than it was before heal decay? Well, yeah. However, getting your hp bar tripled up isn't exactly "weak" either. If you still die after that, then gg to the people that killed you, they earned it.
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Ok, now this, I 100% agree with, especially that last line tbh lol 
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Pointless? Why? An entire support class is destroyed because so many only appreciate 1 to 2 aspects of that class?
Because the percentages aren't what they were before I13 right? Because squishies should benefit from the maximum (PvE) percentages on top of the 40% resist they already get? Do you really beleive that there is a support toon that is "solely" based on only one type of buff? I think many of us haven't stepped far enough away from I12 to look at I13 PvP from a differnt angle.
I get it. Really I do. We want support toons to be able to turn us into PvP gods and godesses again... and we shouldn't have to stay near that support toon to get the maximum benefit. We feel one buffer's contribution to a team should completely turn the tide and allow us to act foolish, wreckless and be 100% offensive with no worries about getting hit and/or hurt. Buffers and support shouldn't have to *think* about who to buff... who *needs* the shileds more, whether it's the right time to heal, or who isn't at the cap. No... it should just be spammable support powers than offer the ability to put them on auto and win. No, sorry that ship has sailed guys. It's not the end... it's the beginning.
DR does not affect everyone the same. It causes a reduced ammount of buff for the toons that already have enough of that particular buff. Another way of saying this is DR will allow support toons to provide the most def and res to those who lack them the most. For those builds that require def and res the least, well those toons may have to look at, appreciate, and take advantage of other contributions offered by these support toons. This isn't that hard to adjust to.
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I cannot read this and honestly believe that you have PvP'd.
What. The. [censored].
People complained because "Waaaaah the other team's Sonics and Therms are giving +res and we can't do enough damage!" So everyone said "Hey! Let's give all the squishies free resists, so that Sonic and Therm shields are worthless! That'll teach 'em!"
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lol. No, seriously I DO PvP. At this point I pretty much spend 85% of my time in PvP zones, and the rest in PvE. I rotate between well over a dozen or so heroes and villians (some built better than others) and probably two-thirds are either defenders, trollers, doms, MMs, or corrs.
I guess the problem is that I do not sit down, grab a pen and paper, pull out Mids and pop up my combat attribute window, make a chart to comapare what my PvE numbers are compared to PvP numbers, and decide whether or not I had fun and found success without ever actually fighting anyone or actually supportting my team...
Although it doesn't happen often, some of the most dynamic and fun fights I've had since I13 have been those that consisited of 4-5 defenders and trollers versus teams that had several corr and MMs on them.
From my observations, support toons have the hardest time because the FoTM toons that are built for "Damage, damage, and more Damage" could care less about thier supportive teammates. Many happily accept buffs that will +ACC +DaM +Rech. They fly/SS/SJ off to get kills... That is often what their AT is designed for. That great damage however is often never enough surprisingly to stop that defender from being spiked and killed repeatedly.There is a lack of support for support toons. I13 din't do that... we did. I13 simply changed the rules. Some think in a way that says "My heals are rendered useless after 2 or more!?" I think of it as " Oops, I rendered my heals useless by spamming it 3 or more times within 8 secs" or whatever... Are spammed heals and high resists the ONLY thing that can stop a teammate from being spiked? No indeed.... if you think yes, then you're not trying hard enough imo.
The percentages we now get from buffs follow the same trend we've seen since ED and IO sets and bonuses were introduced... No. I do not see a huge difference in getting 2% resist from another teammate versus 2% froma higher level IO, or a unique or whatever... It's the same damn number... meaning more than I had before. Any arguement that attempts to say adding 1-13% of anything is pointless is one that can and should be applied to IO'ed builds that stack small percentages up and up and up... but that's crazy talk, right?
So someone will say that there's a huge difference because it's make my support toon's contribution pointless. How? Which set? By saying things like this are we implying that A) another class (damage, control, disruption) is supportting better? B) that such contribution offers nothing outside of DR affected buffs? or C) that it's just better to simply hop around and kill stuff as fast as possble, so there's no point in wasting time thinking about how best to support?
I disagree that the support class is destroyed. I agree that they are in a terrible shape in zone PvP atm. I do not think the design of I13 PvP is the main reason they are in bad shape.
Damage is overrated in PvP. The threat is causes is often only eliminated when you find yourself teamed with just a few good support toons determined to keep their team from dying. Otherwise, you just need to bring more damage to the table. People stop supporting in zones and we get to where we are now. Damage appears to be what PvP is all about because there isn't enough support out there to do anything about it, and those that are out there aren't being used or played to their fullest potential.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
I had a nice big reply written up but then I gave up because you just don't get it. The reason that buffers have all but disappeared is not due to player decisions but simply due to the mechanics that made them how they are. Look no further than the mez changes and the differences between PvE and PvP damage and you'll see that yes, PvP is about damage now.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Oh look! It actually did turn out the way the PvPers said it would, but the devs thought they were obviously right and completely ignored us. Hmmmmm....
22 50's in Bio
@Siphonic
RIP PX, GMW, and the game that used to be fun.
Still playing for reasons unknown.