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What is the damage scale of defenders ???
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Too low.
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Kinetics is the worst case
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Kinetics is pretty bad, but at least there's some synergy with defender secondary nukes.
I'd say Empathy is in the running with Kinetics for worst defender/controller discrepancy. Fortitude aside -- yes, quite a bit nicer on defenders -- we've got HA/HO barely 14% better for defenders, CM/AP where the defender advantage is unimportant, and Res/RA/RA/AB which are identical. In practice, controllers can have a pet to benefit from HO/AP/CM/Fort/AB while soloing, and Absorb Pain does less damage and fits better for controllers as an end-saving secondary while teaming.
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The big offender here is Tar Patch, which operates at Defender values for Corruptors. A /Dark Corruptor is just as much of a force multiplier as a Dark/ Defender is and does more significantly more damage to boot.
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It is retarded how inconsistent (and dare I say corner cutting) they are with psuedo pets.
Some of them get adjusted for each AT -
Freezing rain, Lightning Storm, Disruption Arrow, Fulcrum, Heat loss..
And then a whole pile of them don't -
sheild charge, Lrod, burn, tornado, traps, etc
It bothers me. Either apply (as in edit) the entities to be AT specific (the correct thing to do) or do it for none of them.
You are right, Tar patch is a serious offender, it is just as good on Defs as it is on MM's.
That isn't defender's fault though, that is just a poor job being done.
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Fulcrum Shift does not get adjusted going between primary and secondary.
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Yes it does. The difference may not be meaningful in actual play, but it IS adjusted.
Def:
buff caster - 50%
buff per target -25%
debuff per target -25%
Troller:
Buff caster -40%
buff per target -25%
debuff per target -20%
I agree the difference isn't significant enough on many sets and a good number of them end up performing better on trollers and corrs due to criticals (containment/scourge) and the higher damage cap of the corr where applicable.
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Hurricane at lvl12 was enough reason for me to go storm/son over son/storm. Freezing rain at 8 was an even bigger decider.
Speed boost at 12, excellent.
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I can ding 12 in a play session, or two if I'm being lazy. The only way 20 takes awhile is if you solo your way. If you don't plan on playing the build much I can see it being an advantage to getting powers earlier, but that's about it.
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How many hrs does the avg player play for per session? per week?
I imagine the term "casual player base" wasn't coined due to the majority of players being capable of rushing into the 20's in a matter of hours.
Last number released quite some time ago (iirc) said that the avg player level is around 30.
What about key tier 8 powers? hour many hrs does it take the avg player to go from 26 to 35? Do most players even reach 35 to even get to use said power?
Same reason I could never stick with an /em tank, but leveled an EM brute and stalker without issue. Sometimes waiting for signature/key powers is a b*tch. I know from leveling up several cold corrs and one cold def that waiting until lvl 35 to get sleet is one heck of a long time (assuming you don't just ae blast the toon through the levels).
There is definitely a place for people that want powers earlier. Like I said, when I aim to play a debuffing toon with the focus on some of the key debuffing powers, then I take a good look at defenders.
I've said before though, that post GR defs will be in the bottom 4 AT's with tanks, doms, and stalkers and they will occupy a much smaller percentage relative the other "big" AT's
*excluding epics.
I'm thinking 80% for the main 6 (corrs, MM's, brutes, scraps, blasters, trollers) and 20% for the other 4 (defs, tanks, doms, stalkers).
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Despite these "number" people talking about corrs beating out defenders, I just don't see it at all. I take a corr out, I feel weak, useless, and unable to do meaningful damage.
As a defender, I feel weak, but useFUL, and unable to do meaninful damage (my new cold/rad notwithstanding, that guy burns crowds).
I'd rather be useful than lackluster at support, like I feel corrs really are (along with controllers).
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Play something like Ice/cold vs Cold/ice both to 50 and see how well they perform both solo and on teams. It will become very obvious after playing them both frequently that the Ice/Cold supports identically to the Defender on big teams but deals significantly more damage both solo and on teams.
It's the absolute worst for defenders when comparing Kinetics between the two ATs since defenders have a lower damage cap and lower base damage and 6 out of 9 kinetic powers remain identical for both ATs (including siphon speed, Fulcrum shift, and speed boost).
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Like I said, numbers are meaningless to me. It's how it FEELS. It's merely personal appearance, and therefore my opinion can not be changed, and nearly can your "Corrs are superior" mindset.
That's life, I wont stop playing defenders even if I'm the only one I ever see.
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ability to skip Flares
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But Flares is very good now! 
Skip Fire Blast!
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On my Kin/elec I can nearly get away with one ST attack and two AoE. With Fire, I get two credible ST attacks and two AoE. Flares's damage isn't worth me taking the time and effort to use it when there are more damaging things to use. If you are looking to solo and certainly lower level play, then by all means Flares fills in nicely for those situations. Later on when I'm on a team and using stacked Siphon Speed and Hasten? Not worth it.
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How many hrs does the avg player play for per session? per week?
I imagine the term "casual player base" wasn't coined due to the majority of players being capable of rushing into the 20's in a matter of hours.
Last number released quite some time ago (iirc) said that the avg player level is around 30.
What about key tier 8 powers? hour many hrs does it take the avg player to go from 26 to 35? Do most players even reach 35 to even get to use said power?
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Note I stopped at the level 20 range. Level 12 really is fairly quick to get to even if you only play a couple of hours per week. Let's say four hours per week which means two hours on a typical day off for a work week on average. Outside of Posi, pretty much the vast majority of TFs can be burned through in that time. Posi can be, but you are looking at a team more built for that kind of thing versus the 6+ hour horror stories. One weekend to get within Posi range. 2nd weekend to do Posi and 3rd weekend to do Synapse and you should be looking at level 20. You now could possibly have 6 out of the 9 total powers.
Does it suck to wait until 35 instead of 26? Yes it does, but if you are only playing 1-2 days a week, you are looking at rested exp and using the day job for more exp per mission completion. Leveling in this game is easy as ever. I don't even consider getting to 30 that difficult these days if you lock on to playing that build and then you are looking at having 7 out of the 9 powers. Getting those final two will take some effort, but in a lot of cases for a set that uses a defender primary, it can be very much worth it compared to what the defender is getting at that point.
If the average player gets a character to level 30, you would assume somebody playing a controller would lock down on getting those two levels to get to the "good point" of being a controller. After that, it's pure upswing for controllers compared to defenders, IMO, and thus you would be crazy to not want to level that build some more, which means getting the final two and then off to get epics.
Here's a quick chart of how much ATs get played. While it's a one shot look at it, the same poster has done in depth versions of it before. Now, look at the 30+ level range between controllers and defenders. People typically play defenders up the level 30 range, but not many seem to go all the way to 50. Controllers on the other hand keep getting played. Why? Because players have a bigger incentive to do so.
Forgot to add this in earlier. I wouldn't factor in real time to get to a certain level versus game time. If it's taking you a year to get a power for a one AT, then it's taking you months and months to get it for a defender as well.
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Beat me if you can---Survive if I let you.
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Do you PvP? 
Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
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Despite these "number" people talking about corrs beating out defenders, I just don't see it at all. I take a corr out, I feel weak, useless, and unable to do meaningful damage.
As a defender, I feel weak, but useFUL, and unable to do meaninful damage (my new cold/rad notwithstanding, that guy burns crowds).
I'd rather be useful than lackluster at support, like I feel corrs really are (along with controllers).
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Play something like Ice/cold vs Cold/ice both to 50 and see how well they perform both solo and on teams. It will become very obvious after playing them both frequently that the Ice/Cold supports identically to the Defender on big teams but deals significantly more damage both solo and on teams.
It's the absolute worst for defenders when comparing Kinetics between the two ATs since defenders have a lower damage cap and lower base damage and 6 out of 9 kinetic powers remain identical for both ATs (including siphon speed, Fulcrum shift, and speed boost).
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Like I said, numbers are meaningless to me. It's how it FEELS. It's merely personal appearance, and therefore my opinion can not be changed, and nearly can your "Corrs are superior" mindset.
That's life, I wont stop playing defenders even if I'm the only one I ever see.
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tl;dr version- stop trying to confuse my prejudices with facts.
Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
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tl;dr version- stop trying to confuse my prejudices with facts.
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Isn't the discussion around who will play corruptors vs. who will play defenders all about prejudices? I doubt 18% more damage vs 12% more support vs. 3% more hitpoints vs. 6 levels sooner on certain powers really key in on it.
If someone wants to make a buff/debuff, they will lean defender. If they want to blast they will lean corruptor. The color of the loading screen probably has more influence on the decision than all the facts people try to present.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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tl;dr version- stop trying to confuse my prejudices with facts.
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Isn't the discussion around who will play corruptors vs. who will play defenders all about prejudices? I doubt 18% more damage vs 12% more support vs. 3% more hitpoints vs. 6 levels sooner on certain powers really key in on it.
If someone wants to make a buff/debuff, they will lean defender. If they want to blast they will lean corruptor. The color of the loading screen probably has more influence on the decision than all the facts people try to present.
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This makes me smile.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
I wants a pink loading screen ... no joke.
Two points here:
1) While a Defender does do less damage than a Corruptor, as a particular Primary/Secondary combination provides more damage buffs, the gap gets smaller. The Rad/Sonic combination provides the greatest overall damage buffs, and numerically does about the same damage on both ATs. The Corruptor starts out with more damage, but the Defender raises its damage further. The Defender also gets a much larger buff from Aim.
2) While Scourge and his greater base damage can make a Corruptor do more damage than a Defender, this does nothing for the rest of the team. In essense, the Corruptor is taking away damage from the rest of the team and giving it to himself, which a large team of non-buffers is not going to consider an overall advantage. The short version is, Corruptors are better at soloing, Defenders are better on teams. Which we already know.
Keep in mind that a Corruptor's damage base is only 0.75, compared to a Defender's 0.65. You could raise the damage base to 0.70, but if you raised it to 0.75, Defenders would do the same damage as Corruptors, and would have greater buffs besides. So there would be only the effect of Scourge, making Corruptors much weaker than Defenders when the battle started, but then surpassing their damage as the foe got close to defeat.
It's more likely Defenders need a Inherent that boosts their damage, instead of a damage boost. Taking the other Hero/Villain comparison that is applicable, Tankers do more damage than Brutes to start, but any Brute should be able to raise Fury enough to outdamage a Tanker within a few blows. They don't have to wait until they have full Fury before they start doing more damage than Brutes, that's when they do more damage than Scrappers. If Defenders had an Inherent that let them do more damage at the start of the battle, or under some other controllable circumstance, they would have offensive performance closer to Corruptors
The other thing Defenders need, and all other buffing ATs as well, is a more consistent availability of damage boosts. The lack of damage boost in FF and Empathy, and the low damage boost in Dark, Sonic, and Cold Domination increases the gap between Defenders and Corruptors for those sets. Inconsistencies such as Tar Patch not being scaled to the AT's modifier (which could apply to Traps once it is Proliferated) only makes the problem worse. If the devs intend to resolve this issue (and I'm not sure it's likely that they do) then this is where they need to start.
Ultimately what this comes down to is whether or not your ability to solo is trumped by a greater capability on a team. If the majority of players choose to have a lesser role on a team in order to increase their soloability, then that will be the status quo.
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I wants a pink loading screen ... no joke.
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http://www.splasher.com.ar/2007/08/version-history.html
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I wants a pink loading screen ... no joke.
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http://www.splasher.com.ar/2007/08/version-history.html
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Oh .. Oh .. OOOhh .. oOoooooOooooo ...
/wets self
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1) While a Defender does do less damage than a Corruptor, as a particular Primary/Secondary combination provides more damage buffs, the gap gets smaller. The Rad/Sonic combination provides the greatest overall damage buffs, and numerically does about the same damage on both ATs. The Corruptor starts out with more damage, but the Defender raises its damage further.
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This just isn't true if you're comparing the same set combinations between the two ATs.
Let's compare Rad/Sonic defender vs Sonic/Rad corruptor.
Using Scream over time to kill a target with X hp (value doesn't matter) and zero resistance at +0 con.
----------------------
Defender scream:
base damage: 47.7
recharge base: 6
recharge bonus enhancements: 0.95
recharge bonus from buffs: 0.30
debuff value: 0.20
debuff duration: 7
Ener. Field debuff: 0.3
Average debuff value over time = (7/(6/(1+.95+.3)))*0.20 + 0.3 = 0.825
Corruptor scream:
base damage: 58.4
recharge base: 6
recharge bonus enhancements: 0.95
recharge bonus from buffs: 0.30
debuff value: 0.15
debuff duration: 7
Ener. Field debuff: 0.225
Average debuff value over time = (7/(6/(1+.95+.3)))*0.15 + 0.225 = 0.619
Now to apply damage buffs with 0.95 damage enhancement + AM dmg buff
Defender dmg buff total = 0.25 + 0.95 = 1.2
Corruptor dmg buff total = 0.20 + 0.95 = 1.15
Total defender dmg per hit = (47.7*(1+1.2))*(1+0.825) = 191.52
Total corruptor dmg per hit = (58.4*(1+1.15))*(1+0.619) = 203.25
Scourge over time is a 21.25% damage increase to damage after -res/+dmg occurs. How to find scourge was detailed earlier in the thread and really doesn't need to be repeated, just use a spreadsheet.
If we use X = 100,000,
# of hits to kill for defender = 522.1509486
# of hits to kill for corr w/ scourge = 405.7926108
# of hits to kill for corr w/o scourge = 492.0043149
Corruptor damage advantage = 522.1509486 / 405.7926108 - 1 = 0.2867
Sonic/Rad corruptors deal 28.67% more overall damage than Rad/Sonic defenders. also it should be noted that the average support gain from the Rad set for defenders is 25.46% if we exclude fallout.
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Sonic/Rad corruptors deal 28.67% more overall damage than Rad/Sonic defenders.
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If they choose to only use one attack vs. a target. What happens if they chain attacks and stack even more of the Sonic -res debuff? I know most players would only attack with scream and forgo other attacks, but just in case someone goes crazy and also uses Shriek and Screech.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Sonic/Rad corruptors deal 28.67% more overall damage than Rad/Sonic defenders.
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If they choose to only use one attack vs. a target. What happens if they chain attacks and stack even more of the Sonic -res debuff? I know most players would only attack with scream and forgo other attacks, but just in case someone goes crazy and also uses Shriek and Screech.
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If they were feeling particularily crazy and decided to actually play the game they would see something like this:
Scream self buffs it's own damage (most people that don't play sonic don't realize that).
Def
2 ticks of 4.77
8 ticks of 4.77 buffed by additional 20% -res
Corr
2 ticks of 5.84
8 ticks of 5.84 buffed by additional 15% -res
Aside from that the comparison Turbo just ran is pretty useless. Sonic is about stacking -res to defeat targets, not cycling a single attack. The defender benefits more from attacking in a realistic manner rather than some pointless vacuum comparison.
It would be far more useful comparing a realistic scenario
Like how you'd kill a lut.
(AM, assault, 95% enhances)
Aim>screech>EF>shriek>scream>shriek >shout>shriek>scream>shriek
Def w/ aim = 1,565.2
Corr w/ aim = 1,647.5
5% diff
Def w/o aim = 1,385.1
Corr w/o aim = 1480.5
6.5% diff
w/ apoc proc in shriek
w/ aim = 2.8% diff
w/o aim = 3.9% diff
*Scourge
-iirc it is about 9-10% over time for luts?
w/ aim = 12.9% dif
w/o aim = 14.2% diff
w/ aim+apoc = 10% diff
w/o aim+apoc = 10.8% diff
Of course if you skew the results with as much bias as possible you end up with a reason to complain.
Rad/sons have absolutely nothing to complain about, they start strong and finish stronger. They are a horrible example to use to try and highlight that defs are not strong enough. But so are most cases where the example is a commonly used AV solo'er.
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Sonic/Rad corruptors deal 28.67% more overall damage than Rad/Sonic defenders.
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If they choose to only use one attack vs. a target. What happens if they chain attacks and stack even more of the Sonic -res debuff? I know most players would only attack with scream and forgo other attacks, but just in case someone goes crazy and also uses Shriek and Screech.
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unless you can magically maintain 8 total stacks of sonic blast -res debuffs 100% of the time, a Rad/Sonic defender will NEVER deal the same damage Sonic/Rad corruptor does. The post I was replying to was claiming that defenders have the potential to do the same damage as a corruptor, which is just no where close to being true.
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Keep in mind that a Corruptor's damage base is only 0.75, compared to a Defender's 0.65. You could raise the damage base to 0.70, but if you raised it to 0.75, Defenders would do the same damage as Corruptors, and would have greater buffs besides.
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I doubt many would object to corruptors getting a small damage bump as well. In my view, it's the controller-defender comparison that's really problematic, since one of the two ATs is clearly a high performer -- not so much the defender-corruptor one, where both ATs are kind of meh.
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Keep in mind that a Corruptor's damage base is only 0.75, compared to a Defender's 0.65. You could raise the damage base to 0.70, but if you raised it to 0.75, Defenders would do the same damage as Corruptors, and would have greater buffs besides.
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I doubt many would object to corruptors getting a small damage bump as well. In my view, it's the controller-defender comparison that's really problematic, since one of the two ATs is clearly a high performer -- not so much the defender-corruptor one, where both ATs are kind of meh.
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Cuz, you know, Scourge does absolutely nothing for average damage scalar. There's absolutely no data to support Corrupters more accurately having a .95 ranged damage scalar to account for averaging Scourge in.
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Keep in mind that a Corruptor's damage base is only 0.75, compared to a Defender's 0.65. You could raise the damage base to 0.70, but if you raised it to 0.75, Defenders would do the same damage as Corruptors, and would have greater buffs besides.
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I doubt many would object to corruptors getting a small damage bump as well. In my view, it's the controller-defender comparison that's really problematic, since one of the two ATs is clearly a high performer -- not so much the defender-corruptor one, where both ATs are kind of meh.
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Cuz, you know, Scourge does absolutely nothing for average damage scalar. There's absolutely no data to support Corrupters more accurately having a .95 ranged damage scalar to account for averaging Scourge in.
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Actually scourge makes it about 0.91 from my data.
*walks in*
*sees a bunch of scary numbers*
*slowly backs out of the thread*
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*walks in*
*sees a bunch of scary numbers*
*slowly backs out of the thread*
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are you still having nightmares about arcanaville eating you?
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*walks in*
*sees a bunch of scary numbers*
*slowly backs out of the thread*
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are you still having nightmares about arcanaville eating you?
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*sniff* y-y-y-y-y-yes.......
Look, everyone. In the end, one of two things is going to happen, after GR hits the shelves.
1) Nothing happens. The Defender player base remains (realativly) stable, and the Devs move on to other issues.
or:
2) Defender numbers plummet. After a month or two of data-mining before ultimatly deciding that, Yes, there is a Problem, the Devs set to work to 'fix' the Defender AT. How long it takes them to make the Defender viable again, is a completely different issue.
Really, those are the only paths from here. And we won't know how things are going to fall until (at the earliest) months after GR is released.
Personally? I'm rather certain that Defenders will take a big hit after GR. Now, if it will be enough of one to cause the Devs to start knocking the rust off? That, I'm not so certain of.
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