The "no one will play Defenders when they can play Corrupter instead" argument is not only extremely flawed (people have said pretty much the same about Controllers for awhile now) but shouldn't really have anything to do with a discussion about if Defenders should have some type of buff.
People played Stalkers and Dominators yet they were still given a complete revamp/buff. People still played defensive sets like Invulnerability and Super Reflexes yet they had Defense Debuff resistance added to make them more attractive. There could be a AT/powerset that is proven to be the absolute worse in the game and there will still be people who play it either because they enjoy the challenge of succeeding with an under performing setup or they enjoy the play style enough that they don't care if they don't put out as many numbers as everyone else.
People will play different characters for all sorts of reasons. Even if people "prove" that Controllers or Corrupters are better, there's still going to be lots of Defenders out there who either don't care or who play it BECAUSE they're not as good. Just because lots of people play something doesn't mean it's over performing and just because something is extremely rare doesn't necessarily mean it needs a buff.
I guess the point I'm making is that there's always going to be Defenders running around, even if they ARE "worse" than Controllers or Corrupters. Just because people choose to play Defenders over other ATs doesn't mean they should be kept from getting changes/buffs if the devs feel they're not where they should be (I don't know if they do need one or not. I don't have a Defender or Corrupter over 26). Corrupters are never going to "obsolete" Defenders but that doesn't necessarily mean Defenders couldn't use a few buffs.
I'll admit, I haven't read the whole thread, but it touched on Defender Damage, and that's what I came to the forums to talk about today, so here goes.
I'm playing my FF/Nrg Defender (I'll post the build in a moment). The goal of this character was to emulate, to some degree, Iron Man. The truth is, he actually does it pretty well. However, I recently Veteraned up sufficiently that I gained access to the Nemesis Staff. I was astounded.
My BEST SHOT using my own powers does around 30 damage to a white conn Freakshow Slammer. Air Superiority does around 24 damage. The Staff does close to 150 damage. Yes, that's right, 5 TIMES the best damage I can do.
I tried an experiment.
I came upon a spawn of three Freakshow, two Slammers and a Gunner. I used only my own powers. I was OUT of endurance after the two Slammers, and was forced to struggle against the Gunner (I was never in danger of defeat, but it was VERY slow and frustrating).
I later came upon an identical spawn, but this time used the Staff as it became ready. I defeated all three foes and was a little above half endurance. Again, I wasn't in any real danger, but instead of having to stop and rest (or stop and wait for rest to recycle since it's necessary after every spawn), I was able to carry on playing.
What's more fun, Resting, or fighting foes?
Defenders need a bonus to their damage, or they need to have endurance equalized somehow. Because Defenders do a fraction of the damage anyone else does while using the same endurance, they end up using much more endurance to defeat the same challenges.
I wonder if a variation on the old Defiance would work? That is, as the Defender's endurance diminishes, the cost of using his powers also diminishes?
(Forgot to post the build, here he is)
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]
Warpath: Level 50 Technology Defender
Primary Power Set: Force Field
Secondary Power Set: Energy Blast
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Power Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Personal Force Field -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(3), DefBuff-I(3)
Level 1: Power Bolt -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(5), Dmg-I(5), Dmg-I(7), Dmg-I(7)
Level 2: Force Bolt -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(9)
Level 4: Energy Torrent -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(9), Dmg-I(11), Dmg-I(11), Dmg-I(13)
Level 6: Hover -- Flight-I(A), Flight-I(13), Flight-I(15)
Level 8: Air Superiority -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(15), Dmg-I(17), Dmg-I(17), Dmg-I(19)
Level 10: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A), Jump-I(46)
Level 12: Dispersion Bubble -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(19), DefBuff-I(21), DefBuff-I(21)
Level 14: Fly -- Flight-I(A), Flight-I(23), Flight-I(23)
Level 16: Boxing -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(25), Dmg-I(25), Dmg-I(27), Dmg-I(27)
Level 18: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(29), Heal-I(29)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(31), EndMod-I(31)
Level 22: Tough -- EndRdx-I(A), ResDam-I(31), ResDam-I(33), ResDam-I(33)
Level 24: Weave -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(33), DefBuff-I(34), DefBuff-I(34)
Level 26: Power Burst -- RechRdx-I(A), Acc-I(34), Acc-I(36), Dmg-I(36), Dmg-I(36), Dmg-I(50)
Level 28: Repulsion Field -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 30: Repulsion Bomb -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(37), Dsrnt-I(37), Dsrnt-I(37), Dsrnt-I(39)
Level 32: Maneuvers -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(39), DefBuff-I(39), DefBuff-I(40)
Level 35: Explosive Blast -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(40), Dmg-I(40), Dmg-I(42), Dmg-I(42)
Level 38: Nova -- RechRdx-I(A), Acc-I(42), Acc-I(43), Dmg-I(43), Dmg-I(43), Dmg-I(50)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(45), RechRdx-I(45)
Level 44: Temp Invulnerability -- EndRdx-I(A), ResDam-I(45), ResDam-I(46), ResDam-I(46)
Level 47: Total Focus -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(48), Dmg-I(48), Dmg-I(48), Dmg-I(50)
Level 49: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
[ QUOTE ]
Defenders need a bonus to their damage, or they need to have endurance equalized somehow. Because Defenders do a fraction of the damage anyone else does while using the same endurance, they end up using much more endurance to defeat the same challenges.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've always wanted Vigilance to grant an endurance discount on powers for every teammate or enemy within a certain range. You'd get some benefit solo if you got mobbed and a huge benefit in large team situations. Ideally on a team of 8 fighting a large group of 16 foes, you should get an endurance discount equivalent to Conserve Power.
PRTECTR4EVR
[ QUOTE ]
I'll admit, I haven't read the whole thread, but it touched on Defender Damage, and that's what I came to the forums to talk about today, so here goes... What's more fun, Resting, or fighting foes? ...
Defenders need a bonus to their damage, or they need to have endurance equalized somehow. Because Defenders do a fraction of the damage anyone else does while using the same endurance, they end up using much more endurance to defeat the same challenges.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, I'm not against a defender damage buff. I'm just not sure it's warranted. Here's why, and I'll use turbo's example of rad/rad's (which, oddly enough, is probably the most friendly example for my purposes) :
First, since I don't have corruptor ranged modifier off the top of my head, I'm grabbing a points of data from City of Data to establish it. Defender is 0.65, Blaster is 1.125 iirc. Quick reverse engineering of electrical blast confirms corruptors are 0.75. Lets give everyone +95% damage from SO's, and AM. No assault or other buffs, no innate resistance to the blast set.
Rad/Rad defender: 0.65 base damage * 2.20 damage buffs * 1.3 damage -resistance = 1.86
Rad/Rad corrupter: 0.75 base damage * 2.15 damage buffs * 1.225 damage -resistance = 1.98
Clearly the corrupter, in a bubble, outdamages the defender when enervating field is up, both are running AM, both have 95% damage slotted, and the opponent has no innate resistance.
The thing is, what if you stacked four?
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Base Buffs Debuffs Total
2.6 2.95 2.2 16.87
3 2.75 1.9 15.68
</pre><hr />
Now, here's the kicker. What if you add four damage dealers, such as blasters? When you start taking advantage of other buffs (like assault) defender teams move further ahead. At this point your team is already silly-overpowered, but it underscores that stacked buffs/debuffs are how to melt content, and defenders have to work less hard to reach the 'silly-overpowered' point.
There are some interesting corr/def oddities. Over the course of this post I logged in both a 50 corr and def and checked in game, and many powers are actually the same on both sides (mainly the psuedo-pets like tar patch, sleet, fr, and fulcrum shift, but most of these pets are the massive damage multipliers).
FWIW, I wouldn't mind defender damage buffed, but I long ago accepted that defenders are not geared to solo... and are extremely powerful when you stack them in teams. FF primary does practically nothing to buff your damage or debuff your opponent, but it can make a team nigh untouchable with manuevers & 3 powers. Not a bad setup.
lolDefenders
Controllers defend the team better
*runs*
You can crunch whatever numbers you like, the fact remains that a Defender does less damage than any other class, and uses the same endurance. Yes, they do more for teams, but not everyone teams all the time.
The argument that Defenders aren't "meant" to solo is bogus. EVERYONE solos. ALL classes are more powerful in teams.
My suggestion maintains the general idea of the current incarnation of Vigilance, but is also useful for the solo Defender. If we're going the be required to use more attacks to defeat a foe, then give us the ability to actually use the attacks necessary.
The problem with having an endurance discount for foes in range is that the Defender, a non-melee AT is forced into closer range in order to benefit from the inherent.
I stand by my suggestion.
[ QUOTE ]
The argument that Defenders aren't "meant" to solo is bogus. EVERYONE solos. ALL classes are more powerful in teams.
[/ QUOTE ]
I changed 'meant' to 'geared' for that reason. It's true, though. Look at cold, sonic, emp, ff... each have at least 2 powers you can't use on yourself.
[ QUOTE ]
You can crunch whatever numbers you like, the fact remains that a Defender does less damage than any other class, and uses the same endurance. Yes, they do more for teams, but not everyone teams all the time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Right. They also bring more to a team than any other AT, which is kind of the point I'm making 
I don't mind a damage buff for defenders. I'm just not sure it's warranted.
(QR)
If we assume that Corruptors' damage scalar advantage is cancelled out by Defenders' buff/debuff scalar advantage, then we're left with one inescapable conclusion:
Scourge > Vigilance
There is, however, a psychological advantage for the Defender with respect to team play; Defenders seem to be, regardless of any numerical argument, the most attractive invitees. People go gaga over that shield icon.
For that reason alone, we'll never see Defenders dwindle into complete obscurity.
And because the devs are leery of the balance implications of stacked buff/debuff teams, we'll probably never see a significant buff to Defenders as a whole AT.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
 |
Just wanted to make a couple points in the midst of this discussion.
[ QUOTE ]
So yes, I must be a bad player if low level corrupters die frequently. Because there can't be any other reasons can there? Playing defenders couldn't possibly have taught me how to play similar characters, could they?
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Your low level corruptors might die frequently, but mine don't, at least no more frequently than my defenders. I'm sure it has to do with the higher damage + Scourge.
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Just tried running the same mission with my rad/rad corrupter again, this time on difficulty 1. Again, endurance runs out I get killed. How does this happen? Well, let's see here. I believe it has something to do with an endurance recovery rate of 1.67 endurance per second, and endurance consumption rate of 1.49 endurance per second. Sure I could hit Accelerate Metabolism and get an end recovery rate of 2.17, but that also speeds up attack recharge. Thus actually causing me to burn endurance faster. Consider that for a moment too before claiming I must be unskilled.
[/ QUOTE ]
Speeding up attack recharge also means doing more damage and killing mobs faster. As far as your end consumption, might be that you don't need to use those toggles every fight. Also, do you not use inspirations?
Your stories of bad teams are so bad that they appear apocryphal. I can't imagine a team refusing to sidekick someone; there's no loss to the mentor, so there's no reason not to SK. I also can't imagine a team demanding you forgo buffs in favour of weak heals, or specifically aiming to kill your anchors. Unless Guardian has a population made entirely of trolls and griefers, your teaming experiences are outlandish and almost certainly not experienced by others.
Actually, speeding up attack rate but leaving endurance costs the same doesn't increase damage, just the damage rate. If you can land 10 attacks before being out of endurance, it makes no difference how fast they come (well, very little).
I have ONE toggle, and I tend not to use it much. Dispersion Bubble. It's my status protection, but provides minimal actual defense at L21.
As for inspirations, it would be useful to be able to carry an assortment rather than a full tray of blues into every fight, then being incredibly hamstrung once they're gone.
Defender BUff/Debuff advantages are of NO use to them solo, while Scourge does damage, which is always useful.
The problem I've had with Defenders is that they have minimal offense and minimal defense. People have said that they're expected to rely on other players for their offense and defense, but I say that no other AT is so restricted.
Allowing their endurance use to decrease as I've suggested would effectively increase damage output over time, which should keep it balanced against other classes. Defenders would be better able to solo without stepping on any other ATs toes.
(Incidentally, if it were implemented as I suggest, I'd rename it to "Determination")
[ QUOTE ]
Defender does less damage than any other class, and uses the same endurance. Yes, they do more for teams, but not everyone teams all the time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Uhm, actually controllers generally do less damage. As I look through the level 50 damage of a fire controller (considered the highest damage one) I notice that while it has a few powers that will out damage the defender blast set I'd mentioned, it requires containment to do more damage then most defender blasts with the mainstay damage dealers. And to get containment, mobs have to be locked down, thus negating Bonfire's ability to damage them. Bonfire's the highest damage power in the set too.
This means the controller damage either has to be done single target (which will take longer and use more endurance) or a require letting mobs run around and attack you in the hopes they run into bonfire. This is for fire control only.
How about illusion controllers? Another high damage controller set.
Spec wounds does out damage most controller attacks, and yet it doesn't. 10 seconds after use it loses almost 20 points of it's damage. Single target by the way. Blind does less damage then most defender attacks, and is single target too for it's damage.
Phantom army then? Those pets are high damage, right? Well they are, sort of. For burst damage they do a lot of damage. They then have most of that damage heal after a few seconds. And since they love to randomly change targets, enemies can get ample time to recover. No containment for them too. So that's two powers modified by containment damage only.
That brings us to Phantasm, the capstone of the set. Phatasm isn't going to out damage defenders either. Two attacks which might be slightly stronger, but it's still only two attacks. So no, defenders do more damage overall then controllers. Even if you factor in containment. And if an enemy is highly resistant to mez they do more damage still.
(someone may claim this is covering multiple points but no, I'm simply taking time to do a fair review)
[ QUOTE ]
The problem with having an endurance discount for foes in range is that the Defender, a non-melee AT is forced into closer range in order to benefit from the inherent.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, most of my defenders prefer melee. And if it gave an end discount based on players/enemies nearby it would presumably (I'd hope) count you too.
Expanded: Just logged into my illusion controller (love it btw) and checked something. I'd dare suggest that PA can't kill anything if there's 3 or more enemies in the group. The enemies heal from too much of the damage. They are more of a distraction that adds some spike damage.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, speeding up attack rate but leaving endurance costs the same doesn't increase damage, just the damage rate.
[/ QUOTE ]
AM also buffs damage, and even if it didn't, attacking faster = dead enemies faster = less incoming fire = you don't die. Damage rate increase is a good thing.
[ QUOTE ]
As for inspirations, it would be useful to be able to carry an assortment rather than a full tray of blues into every fight, then being incredibly hamstrung once they're gone.
[/ QUOTE ]
So bring reds and kill faster, or bring purples and get hit less, or bring greens and heal incoming damage, or bring oranges and, wait, no, don't bring oranges, they're useless
I must admit that I don't understand why people who don't like defenders damage output don't simply play corrupters.
Frankly corrupters are effectively what defenders would be if they actually buffed the defender damage. At which point the corrupter forum would fill up with complaints asking why people should play a corrupter when defenders do it all better.
As for the solo issue. Defenders were designed as a team oriented AT. Its implied in the very name of the AT. Demonstrated pretty clearly by the abundance of ally only buffs and for the particularly intransigent metaphorically spelled out with an inherent that is team only. The only way it could be more clear is if they posted a big neon sign in Atlas saying "Defenders are a team AT." Complaints that they don't solo as well as other ATs either miss or deliberately ignore the point.
[ QUOTE ]
I must admit that I don't understand why people who don't like defenders damage output don't simply play corrupters.
[/ QUOTE ]
BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE FORCE FIELDS!!!! 
I'm speaking in general terms. Controllers do less damage if you discount their inherent, it's true. Now tell me a time when they don't have their inherent? Further, Controllers have vastly superior defenses by virtue of their controls.
My Defender actually spends a good deal of time in melee too, but neither his primary nor his secondary allows him to do this, and he can't keep up sufficiently sustained damage to make it a general strategy.
AM is not available to all the sets. The problem I'm referring to isn't that I'm taking more damage because it's taking longer to kill my foes (which is true), it's that I do less damage per endurance used. Killing your foes faster is nice, but it's not addressing the real problem. Attacking faster doesn't increase damage. Attacking longer does.
I don't play Corruptors because they're redside, and because I prefer the power sets on Defenders. The only problem is their damage output.
All the ATs were designed for team play. The difference is that only Defenders are hamstrung in solo play. Tankers inherent is team only too, yet they have ample defense and damage.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Defender does less damage than any other class, and uses the same endurance. Yes, they do more for teams, but not everyone teams all the time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Uhm, actually controllers generally do less damage. As I look through the level 50 damage of a fire controller (considered the highest damage one) I notice that while it has a few powers that will out damage the defender blast set I'd mentioned, it requires containment to do more damage then most defender blasts with the mainstay damage dealers. And to get containment, mobs have to be locked down, thus negating Bonfire's ability to damage them. Bonfire's the highest damage power in the set too.
This means the controller damage either has to be done single target (which will take longer and use more endurance) or a require letting mobs run around and attack you in the hopes they run into bonfire. This is for fire control only.
How about illusion controllers? Another high damage controller set.
Spec wounds does out damage most controller attacks, and yet it doesn't. 10 seconds after use it loses almost 20 points of it's damage. Single target by the way. Blind does less damage then most defender attacks, and is single target too for it's damage.
Phantom army then? Those pets are high damage, right? Well they are, sort of. For burst damage they do a lot of damage. They then have most of that damage heal after a few seconds. And since they love to randomly change targets, enemies can get ample time to recover. No containment for them too. So that's two powers modified by containment damage only.
That brings us to Phantasm, the capstone of the set. Phatasm isn't going to out damage defenders either. Two attacks which might be slightly stronger, but it's still only two attacks. So no, defenders do more damage overall then controllers. Even if you factor in containment. And if an enemy is highly resistant to mez they do more damage still.
(someone may claim this is covering multiple points but no, I'm simply taking time to do a fair review)
[ QUOTE ]
The problem with having an endurance discount for foes in range is that the Defender, a non-melee AT is forced into closer range in order to benefit from the inherent.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, most of my defenders prefer melee. And if it gave an end discount based on players/enemies nearby it would presumably (I'd hope) count you too.
Expanded: Just logged into my illusion controller (love it btw) and checked something. I'd dare suggest that PA can't kill anything if there's 3 or more enemies in the group. The enemies heal from too much of the damage. They are more of a distraction that adds some spike damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bonfire will do full damage if you use Fire Cages first and then cast Bonfire under the mob. Keep up Fire Cages and they'll stay in the bonfire due to the -KB in Fire Cages.
Phantom Army unslotted for damage does no net damage. But the healback from illusionary attacks is not affected by damage enhancements.
So an unslotted attack may do 20 damage and heal back 20 later, but a slotted one will do 40 damage and heal back 20.
Spectral Wounds is the same - 50 damage, heals back 20 becomes 100 damage that heals back 20 when slotted. I really noticed this with my Illusionist, that at level 18, letting the Phantom Army loose on a spawn would distract them. By the mid 20s, the Phantom Army would defeat them instead, thanks to the damage slotting I'd put in there.
[ QUOTE ]
Frankly corrupters are effectively what defenders would be if they actually buffed the defender damage. At which point the corrupter forum would fill up with complaints asking why people should play a corrupter when defenders do it all better.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, corrupters are what defenders would have been if their primary function was offense rather then team defense.
You may ask why I say that. Consider this, the primary set of an archetype denotes what their main focus should be. The secondary set is to help them do it. All archetypes need damage though since the ability to solo IS intended. I think it's been mentioned by a dev at one point that all power combos need to be able to solo heroic level missions. If it can't do that, there may be balance issues.
Ok, how do I come by the claim that corrupters are primarily suppose to be offense rather then team defense? Look at the archetypes.
Hero side we have
Tankers: Primary power sets are defensive in nature. They are designed to take a huge beating instead of team mates less able to take the damage. In any MMO I've played such a character role tends to sacrifice much of their offense for the ability to absorb damage like a sponge. And tankers are no different. They have a somewhat low damage modifier.
Scrapper: Primary power sets are melee offense (mostly). Their intended role is melee damage dealer. In most every MMO the 'melee damage' types tend to have weak to moderate defenses and high damage. Scrappers do this.
Blasters: Primary powersets are ranged offense, with secondary power sets of melee offense. Their intended role is ranged offense. In most every MMO I've played the ranged offense classes (mostly mages and ranger types) have strong ranged damage, strong melee damage if needed, but little to no defense. Or if they do have defenses their laughable at higher levels.
Controllers: Primary power sets are control, of course. Here is where it starts to get a little dicey. In most MMOs I've noticed there is no strict battle field control types. That's not to say they can't be done. Take a look at DDO for example. Mages, bards, and sorcerers can be built to do crowd control/buffing. To do so they sacrifice much of their damage potential though.
Defenders: Primary power sets are support, with damage for secondaries. In most every MMO I've played the support types can do damage. Their main focus is usually to heal, buff, and/or debuff. however they can also do some respectable damage if designed right. Never anywhere near the damage of those classes designed for offense, but respectable damage.
Some MMOs give the ranged damage types support type powers. Snares, hard controls such as holds, debuffs (usually minor in most mmo's). These crowd control powers can be used to protect a team, but the main focus is still offense. Corrupters fall into this line of design. Stalkers are more closely related to rogue types in most MMO's, while masterminds are a easy comparison. Many have pet classes. Dominators are a variation on the support types found in many MMO's. Respectable damage combined with team defense. Brutes would be akin to the typical warrior types in MMO's. Possible high defense or high offense, but it depends on your build and playstyle which you get.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Enigma, have you been reading my Combat Guide lately? Just wondering, because it's almost like you're quoting it.
[ QUOTE ]
Phantom Army unslotted for damage does no net damage. But the healback from illusionary attacks is not affected by damage enhancements.
So an unslotted attack may do 20 damage and heal back 20 later, but a slotted one will do 40 damage and heal back 20.
Spectral Wounds is the same - 50 damage, heals back 20 becomes 100 damage that heals back 20 when slotted. I really noticed this with my Illusionist, that at level 18, letting the Phantom Army loose on a spawn would distract them. By the mid 20s, the Phantom Army would defeat them instead, thanks to the damage slotting I'd put in there.
[/ QUOTE ]
At level 27 (almost 28) my illusion/ta still effectivly does no real damage with PA if there's more then 3 enemies. They keep switching targets. Granted, it's currently slotted with (all lev 25 common IO) 1 acc, 2 recharge, 1 damage. Half the damage they do with any given attack heals by the time their second attack finishes.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
[ QUOTE ]
Enigma, have you been reading my Combat Guide lately? Just wondering, because it's almost like you're quoting it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope, never read it. Just drawing on my experiences here, and playing the following MMO's.
Age of Conan
Everquest
Everquest 2
D&D Online
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
Auto Assault
Tabula Rasa
World of Warcraft
Rappelz (or however it's spelled)
Guild Wars....
Should I go on? Most of these I still renew fairly regularly. In all the ones I still play, I play all the character types.
Edit, remembered a few more to add to the list.
Star Wars Galaxies
Warhammer Online (did the 14 day trial, experienced a quarter of the game, got bored quick)
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Phantom Army unslotted for damage does no net damage. But the healback from illusionary attacks is not affected by damage enhancements.
So an unslotted attack may do 20 damage and heal back 20 later, but a slotted one will do 40 damage and heal back 20.
Spectral Wounds is the same - 50 damage, heals back 20 becomes 100 damage that heals back 20 when slotted. I really noticed this with my Illusionist, that at level 18, letting the Phantom Army loose on a spawn would distract them. By the mid 20s, the Phantom Army would defeat them instead, thanks to the damage slotting I'd put in there.
[/ QUOTE ]
At level 27 (almost 28) my illusion/ta still effectivly does no real damage with PA if there's more then 3 enemies. They keep switching targets. Granted, it's currently slotted with (all lev 25 common IO) 1 acc, 2 recharge, 1 damage. Half the damage they do with any given attack heals by the time their second attack finishes.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep. 3/4 of the damage they do will heal back with that slotting. (They do 133% base damage and heal back 100% base.) Three slotting for damage will make that half, but also have the effect of getting them to actually defeat minions before the heal back kicks in. Theres a sort of tipping point there where they get enough power to two-shot or three-shot minions.
I got my Ill/Storm to 26 and if I recall slotted Phantom Army above all else, first with recharge, then damage, letting the -Def in Freezing Rain take care of their accuracy. You could do the same with Acid Arrow with TA.
With regards to Containment in general, you got me thinking. The "if the target is held, slept, immobilised or stunned" clause is so un-situational its not funny, you may as well just say "double damage if you're fighting a Controller"
What if... Immobilise was taken out of the equation. ie you only got Containment against targets that were properly incapacitated by being stunned, held or slept?
For a solo Controller it wouldn't be a huge issue, you hold a target first and then start damaging them. Controllers would still be viable solo-ists, which was the point of Containment.
But it would reduce the AoE damage stunts that Controllers are capable of, such as contained Hot Feet. This would leave Defenders with unqualified better AoE damage as their niche.
It would also have the unfortunate side effect of preventing Containment on purple triangle EB's. Would that be too much of a penalty?
Hot foot is still a base of 7 or 8 damage though :P
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
And, come to think of it, Fire Controllers who open with Flashfire (ie pretty much all of them) would still get contained Hot Feet damage while the stun lasted.
Oh well, probably not my best idea then.
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And, come to think of it, Fire Controllers who open with Flashfire (ie pretty much all of them) would still get contained Hot Feet damage while the stun lasted.
Oh well, probably not my best idea then.
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I know one thing, the only thing that made the oraboras intro mish where your reduced to level 1 bearable was spec wounds+entangle arrow.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Is it just me or do my post get brushed under the carpet for no particular reason. I'm a defender of the non-power gamer mentality. Not everyone is happy until they have their over powered creation that can do everything while eating a bag of chips.
The reason I don't number crunch is because I want to play what is fun, and what is fun to me. Could it be less powerful than a corruptor in terms of damage? Sure, but that's not what's important to my play style or what I consider fun. My Corruptors are fun along with my Defenders. I've yet to feel gimped for playing Defenders while on a team.
Heck, when playing Crainium, me and my mom are eager to pick sculpting. Why? We find it fun and are good at it. For games, winning is fun, but what is fun is fun. If you get through playing a session on a character that isn't fun to play? Why keep him? Does it matter how much damage the character does? If that's how you define fun, then yes. Each person's definition of fun is different. If the simple logic of "people are different" makes me a "believer type", then so be it. I'm enjoying my characters regardless.
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The problem is your POV is stated as 100% subjective (see bolded piece above) so there's nothing to discuss. I have no problem with playing to have fun - I had a tanker along 2 weeks ago on a 54 boss farm team that didn't run anything but invincibility and acrobatics, who used jump kick, flurry and hurl as his attack chain. (I can't make this stuff up, it really happened)
I'm not really in this to argue anything (and definitely not with Turbo, as historically it's been a waste of time), but I don't think defenders need much, if any, of a buff - but I play on big teams, where force multipliers are that much more effective and I don't notice the underpowered damage.