People may switch all their characters to Corruptors, never play Defenders again. However, I don't particularly care about the numbers, I enjoy playing all of my characters, including all my Defenders as Defenders. I'll continue to make Defenders and play CoH with them. They are fun to play to me, I'm an asset to my team, and that's all that matters to me.
You guys are welcome to argue numbers all you want, but the Defender forums aren't exactly the place to go "Oh cool, Defenders. Well, you should fall in love with Corruptors because they are so much better." This is what most of the threads I've looked into come to. "Why do a Cold Dom/Ice? Play a Ice/Cold Dom." My response is, some people just prefer the play style and feel of the Defender. I'm one of these. The numbers can be whatever you want, and heck, you can not invite me to a team because I'm a defender when Rogue comes out. That's your own problem, I do my job well and do it well regardless of if I'm a Defender or Corruptor.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
I'm allergic to numbers...
...except +1.
LETTERS, on the other hand, are my best friends.
If anyone wants proof of that, just compare my FF guide to Turbo's Cold guide, heh.
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People may switch all their characters to Corruptors, never play Defenders again. However, I don't particularly care about the numbers, I enjoy playing all of my characters, including all my Defenders as Defenders. I'll continue to make Defenders and play CoH with them. They are fun to play to me, I'm an asset to my team, and that's all that matters to me.
You guys are welcome to argue numbers all you want, but the Defender forums aren't exactly the place to go "Oh cool, Defenders. Well, you should fall in love with Corruptors because they are so much better." This is what most of the threads I've looked into come to. "Why do a Cold Dom/Ice? Play a Ice/Cold Dom." My response is, some people just prefer the play style and feel of the Defender. I'm one of these. The numbers can be whatever you want, and heck, you can not invite me to a team because I'm a defender when Rogue comes out. That's your own problem, I do my job well and do it well regardless of if I'm a Defender or Corruptor.
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If you don't really want to discuss about AT balance because you find mediocre defender damage numbers "Fun", then you really have no place in such a discussion. Also you really need to stop jumping to conclusions that everyone is trying to steer people away from defenders everytime someone makes a negative comment about the AT.
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I think you fail to realize the number of Corruptor builds that can solo an AV
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I think YOU fail to realize HOW MUCH I DON'T CARE ABOUT SOLOING ARCHVILLAINS. Seriously, I don't care who or what can solo an archvillain. I don't care about optimizing my build to solo them. I don't care about fighting an AV with anything less then a team.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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I think you fail to realize the number of Corruptor builds that can solo an AV
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I think YOU fail to realize HOW MUCH I DON'T CARE ABOUT SOLOING ARCHVILLAINS. Seriously, I don't care who or what can solo an archvillain. I don't care about optimizing my build to solo them. I don't care about fighting an AV with anything less then a team.
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then you probably shouldn't bring up anecdotes about your defender soloing EBs and compare it to corruptors.
Madam has stated she prefers to play Defenders. Fighting with her about numbers between Corruptors and Defenders when she says she simply has no interest in the former, doesn't make her wrong.
I'm saying that I prefer my debuffs to overall help the team in a different way than damage. I personally am fine with having lower damage, get my attacks slower, and have greater debuffs/controls with my secondaries. I still use my secondary, and slot it up. Slotting them up for damage, may or may not be productive for a defender.
I'd rather have more debuff/control with my secondary to help the team overall than straight up damage. Sure, they don't solo as great, but they contribute. My Sonic/Dark defender adds to the resistance when they get hit and adds to their defense by giving to-hit debuffs in AoEs. My Mind/FF and Emp/Psi can control the battle field and mitigate damage.
I gave the OP my suggestions on what to do to make their damage higher if that is what they want to do. It's their choice on how they want to go about it. If they wanted to capitalize on the slows of the blasts, there's nothing wrong there. However, that's only going to make their damage capabilities lower. It's based on play styles. If people are wanting the higher damage, sure go play a corruptor. Do I, as a player and contributor to the team, need the higher damage? No.
As I've said before, if it's really that big of a balance issue between the two, bring it up to the devs or make your own thread about it. Having every thread that I read boiling down to "Corruptors are better" is rather annoying to me. I've made the comments that there's a difference in play style between the power sets, and if there's a large mechanical reason why one is better than the other, than it needs to be addressed by either lowering one or raising the other. If there's a major difference between any of the ATs, it should be addressed. I, however, don't feel like it's a major issue.
You are making the loud argument that because Madam doesn't have a high level Corruptor, means she doesn't have a leg to stand on. However, I have a level 41 and 33 Corruptors and am backing up her point of enjoying Defenders on how their play style is going from 1-50. The point of the game is to enjoy one's self. If you don't enjoy Defender, by all means, don't play them.
If you have a legitimate basis behind yourself, take it to the devs about it. Complaining every step of the way when someone mentions damage isn't productive. Be proactive by approaching people who can do something about it and have a thread that's dedicated towards it. Make it more visible. Coming into a thread and saying that when Going Rogue comes out that you'd gladly delete all your defenders for Corruptors isn't exactly visible nor helpful.
I state this mostly due to the fact that I have played a Corruptor and Controller past level 12, which seems to be the only thing you are complaining at the other person who's saying anything that you're not. There are people who like playing Defenders and enjoy the support from both primary and secondary that is buffed. Some like the higher damage in sacrifice for the extra support. That's called play style.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
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Oh, and I'll also point out your inacurate statement and why it's inaccruate.
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It takes around 5 of those hours to get to level 12, around 20 to 20, and so forth.
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That is only true if your on a large team that's steamrolling things. In fact, I've actually tried going from level 1 to level 12 in five hours. It didn't happen with normal game play. Not for me at least.
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Everything goes better with patronizing, don't you find? Let me just skim over two misspellings of the same word in the same sentence, and point out that if all my times are doubled- 10 hours to level 12, 300 to level 50- you're still spending 3% of your time in the sub-12 game.
A Corruptor hits its stride later. Yes. You may not want to wait. We get that. But saying that you "have played" Corruptors implies you know how they perform through more than the first 3% of the game, don't you think? Imagine someone was making a pronouncement about how Tanks perform based only on the 1-12 game. How would you react? Really, now, how would you?
Enjoy. Your. Period. Separated. Sentences.
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Ok, I know it's hard for some people to grasp this very simple concept. Damage archtypes I've played to late game. In fact, I've got a mastermind and a scrapper who are level 50. I've got a level 32 warshade who's parked due to altitus. I also have a level 35 TA/A defender who's similarly parked while I level my crab. In fact, I've got almost 3 full servers of characters who are in the late twenties to mid thirties. Is that fully grasped? This should tell you something about me. I fully understand how effective a blast set can be in the mid to late game. My blasters are all fast approaching 30.
I don't play 'support' characters for the uber high damage. Is that understood yet? Because I've tried explaining it over and over. I play them because I find the support powers to be fun. With that in mind, why should I level a corrupter when I want a ranged damage dealer? I can level a blaster and get the blasts just as quickly, and do more damage to boot.
In the same vein, why should I level a corrupter to get the support powers when I can level a defender and get them faster, and have more fun doing so? Is that statement understandable to you? I'll quote myself and put the most important part in bold text.
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In the same vein, why should I level a corrupter to get the support powers when I can level a defender and get them faster, and have more fun doing so?
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Is that completely understood to you and Turbo now? I find defenders more fun then corrupters! I know, oh my god! Someone who can have fun without uber 'leet' "I can solo archvillains" characters. At level 12 I find a defender more fun then a corrupter, thus I end up playing the defender rather then the corrupter. What makes the defender more fun? Having more of the support powers that I find fun. Again, if I wanted to play a ranged damage dealer I'd just log into one of my blasters.
I have a few fun concept corrupters that I keep slogging away at to level. And yet, I tend to not play them because to me their not fun. It's the same reason I've yet to get a stalker past level 18. Stalkers to me are less fun then scrappers, thus I play a scrapper instead. Brutes also to me are less fun then scrappers or tankers. Thus while I got some brutes I love, I rarely play them. I've yet to get one of my brutes past level 10. To me, their just not fun.
You may have fun other ways. Don't assume my idea of fun matches yours though.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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I think you fail to realize the number of Corruptor builds that can solo an AV
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I think YOU fail to realize HOW MUCH I DON'T CARE ABOUT SOLOING ARCHVILLAINS. Seriously, I don't care who or what can solo an archvillain. I don't care about optimizing my build to solo them. I don't care about fighting an AV with anything less then a team.
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then you probably shouldn't bring up anecdotes about your defender soloing EBs and compare it to corruptors.
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Ok, let me try getting this strait. I mention that I solo elite bosses just fine on my defenders, and you assume that means I care about soloing archvillains? Please, that's bunk. Your trying to argue that everyone must love corrupters and stop playing defenders once going rogue comes out just because Corrupter!>Defender and it doesn't work that way. Both archtypes have a different playstyle. Both do their jobs fine. They don't step on each other's toes to the degree you'd like us to believe. I don't find the playstyle of corrupters fun. Deal with it.
It's funny, a couple years ago people like you were whining that once side switching was added defenders would supplant all corrupters. In fact, I think you were one of the biggest in favor of the claim. Now your saying that corrupters are going to supplant all defenders. So, make up your freaking mind. And once you make up your mind, stop trying to convice me that I don't know how much damage blasts can do at higher levels.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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It's funny, a couple years ago people like you were whining that once side switching was added defenders would supplant all corrupters. In fact, I think you were one of the biggest in favor of the claim. Now your saying that corrupters are going to supplant all defenders.
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Just because people were screaming about Global Cooling and a New Ice Age coming 20 years ago doesn't mean that they can't complain about Global Warming and a DOOOOOOMSDAY scenario now! 
I'm going to have to assume that you two can't read very well because you're reading stuff that isn't even remotely in my posts.
Apparently you're first off going off and claiming that I'm trying steer people away from defenders when no where at any point in time while on these boards have I ever done so. People however move to what is optimal and Corruptors are superior to Defenders in their current state and let's not toss [censored] around here, their playstyles are identical. They just reversed the primary and secondary and left defender damage numbers in the dirt and support sets completely inconsistent going from primary to secondary and back.
You also seem to think that your personal preference has any relevance on a topic about AT balance issues and that we would even care about whether you find support sets more "fun" than ranged damage sets. Fun is subjective, some people find mass murder fun, that certainly doesn't mean that mass murder is healthy for Society. Just like laws up hold order in society, numbers up hold order in game balancing. What's "Fun" has nothing to do with it.
Anyone who has played both a defender and a corruptor to 50 knows that defender damage is completely out of whack and the support number advantage they supposed to have is utter garbage. You don't need to crunch numbers to know this, it's obvious from playing both ATs. Of course, you've admitted to having not actually played a corruptor to 50, so as I said before you really don't have a leg to stand on here. Defenders aren't "fine as is", they need to be tuned to have better base damage and the support numbers need to be more consistent, no more of this bullcrap with over half of entire sets like Kinetics have identical numbers on defenders, controllers, and corruptors.
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It's funny, a couple years ago people like you were whining that once side switching was added defenders would supplant all corrupters. In fact, I think you were one of the biggest in favor of the claim. Now your saying that corrupters are going to supplant all defenders.
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Just because people were screaming about Global Cooling and a New Ice Age coming 20 years ago doesn't mean that they can't complain about Global Warming and a DOOOOOOMSDAY scenario now!
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I don't know, it stinks to me of Y2K syndrome. You remember that right? How back in 1999 people were sure civilization would end because of a potential glitch in computer clocks. Then Jan 1st 2000 came about and the world was still intact. "Oh wait, the new millennium doesn't start until 2001. That's when the world will end," they claimed. And look, the world's still here. There were claims that America would self destruct if there was ever a black president. And the fact of the matter is it's taking the first black president to fix the problems in the country right now.
Maybe all the yearly cries of doom and gloom have jaded me, but I don't see it. There's many indications something world changing will happen in 2012. What will it be? I don't know. It's interesting that the Mayan calendar ends on a very specific date and time. Considering how accurate it's been so far, this tells me something world changing will happen. Personally, I think it's going to be a radical change in society, but not doomsday.
interesting link
Similarly, people are crying DOOM over Going Rogue in regards to corrupters replacing defenders. I'd seen other claims that corrupters would completely replace blasters, and that dominators would replace controllers (and vice versa). I think it will do none of that. I think it'll be a restructuring of the hero and villain communities, ending in more diversity.
And another thing to mention, we don't know what the level requirement to go to the new zone will be. As such, if you wanted to roll all corrupters and play them hero side, it's possible you'd have to level them as a villain to (and this is throwing out a random number) level 30 for instance before gaining access to the zone required to switch sides.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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I'm going to have to assume that you two can't read very well because you're reading stuff that isn't even remotely in my posts.
Apparently you're first off going off and claiming that I'm trying steer people away from defenders when no where at any point in time while on these boards have I ever done so. People however move to what is optimal and Corruptors are superior to Defenders in their current state
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Right there you have stated flat out that you believe corrupters will supplant defenders. A false claim. If this was a true fact, then no one would play defenders anyway. People keep 'proving' that controllers are superior to defenders because they now do roughly equal damage, use the buff sets at near the same capability, and get hard control. And yet, people play defenders. Gee, care to explain that?
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...and let's not toss [censored] around here, their playstyles are identical. They just reversed the primary and secondary and left defender damage numbers in the dirt and support sets completely inconsistent going from primary to secondary and back.
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Again, try again please. Corrupters are first and foremost intended to be damage dealers. And the ideal playstyle of them supports this. That's why they have a higher base damage, and get scourge. If your playing them identical to a defender, then your playing a very confused corrupter in my opinion. They are designed with the idea of maximizing personal offense, with team defense as a secondary priority.
Defenders are team oriented first and foremost. They are the best with buffs and debuffs out there, but not great in the damage department overall. A defender when played well attacks frequently true, but attacking takes secondary priority to team defense.
That is two diverging play styles.
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You also seem to think that your personal preference has any relevance on a topic about AT balance issues and that we would even care about whether you find support sets more "fun" than ranged damage sets. Fun is subjective, some people find mass murder fun, that certainly doesn't mean that mass murder is healthy for Society. Just like laws up hold order in society, numbers up hold order in game balancing. What's "Fun" has nothing to do with it.
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Nice one by the way. Equating someone pointing out that fun must be taken into account causes you to retaliate with "well, some people consider mass murder fun". Interesting argument. And I'll rebuttal it.
First off, bringing murder up as an argument does not help your cause. It hurts it rather. Second of all, that's why the co-op zones and missions of the last four years had been done. For developers to datamine for balance between heroes and villains teaming up. Do you honestly think that Going Rogue isn't going to have balance tweaks based on this info they've gathered? If so, I feel sorry for you.
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Anyone who has played both a defender and a corruptor to 50 knows that defender damage is completely out of whack and the support number advantage they supposed to have is utter garbage. You don't need to crunch numbers to know this, it's obvious from playing both ATs. Of course, you've admitted to having not actually played a corruptor to 50, so as I said before you really don't have a leg to stand on here.
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You keep playing the "You haven't played X archtype to 50" card. And I'm still not buying it. No, I haven't played a corrupter to 50 yet. I've been trying. And even at low levels I'm noticing a large difference in capabilities. I take two characters, one corrupter and one defender that are both the same level. They both have identical blast and debuff sets. And yet, the defender is both more fun and more survivable I find.
I just compared level one unslotted radiation infection for example. Here's what they are:
Defender stats for Radiation Infection
-31.25 tohit
-21.25 defense
Corrupter stats for Radiation Infection
-25 tohit
-25 defense
Doesn't seem like a big difference to you, right Turbo? And yet it is in actual game play. What is part of why I find defenders more fun then corrupters? The fact that they don't die frequently. As I'd previously mentioned, with no to-hit debuff slotting in radiation infection on a defender Atta was unable to kill me. In fact, once I stopped joining PUGs at level six my rad/rad defender practicably was immortal. Only reason that character got deleted at level 26 was because I had grown frustrated with teams back in issue four. My corrupter however still is dying at least six times per mission at least at level 12. Has been since level five. I get tired of dying constantly, and log out in favor of a more fun character. I'm slowly slogging through the levels because my rad/rad corrupter is part of an overall RP storyline me and a friend are doing in CoX. To me, it's not fun so I don't play it. Dying constantly isn't fun.
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Defenders aren't "fine as is", they need to be tuned to have better base damage and the support numbers need to be more consistent, no more of this bullcrap with over half of entire sets like Kinetics have identical numbers on defenders, controllers, and corruptors.
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And this here? That is a personal opinion. Why do defenders need better base damage? Because they can't solo content intended to be done teamed anymore? That's bull and you know it. Defenders do respectable damage. Maybe not as much as a blaster, but still respectable. And the reason they don't do more damage is because of the safety they can generate for them self and the team. Controllers legitimately did too low of damage pre-level 32. Defenders however? They don't suffer that. They can solo fine, and contribute to a team very well. There's a reason teams of defenders steamroll things. Defenders are force multipliers. Due to this, they don't need high base damage.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Let me double check and make sure my reasoning and deduction skills are still up to code.
Not attempting to steer people from Defenders. Well, Corruptors are vastly superior to Defenders when comparing numbers. If you could, you'd ditch all of your Defenders for Corruptors. Also, Defenders have pathetic damage. A logical person would conclude that you're saying Corruptors are better. As such, are pointing them in that direction.
Play styles are identical. Sure, my personal play style of being aggressive is the same. However, each of my characters play differently as priorities get stacked differently. I could toss out this debuff which, though helpful, doesn't compare to my attack. You also have when things come into play. Sure, you can wait on certain powers and eventually pick them up, but what is more important to you, the player. People's priorities change from character to character. Sure, if you want damage, then Corruptors are the way to go. However, some want the debuff/buff more than they want the straight up damage. People's personal preferences are play styles. That's why if we both had identical characters, we *could* play them differently. It's a very rare occasion when I met someone with the same play style as me. Even with the same build, we'd probably play them differently, because we are two different people with different experiences. When talking straight up reverse primary and secondary, what a level 26 Rad/Rad Defender will be different from a level 26 Rad/Rad Corruptor. That is, unless all you are doing are level 50 things. Then again, Corruptors and Defenders have different epic pools which offer different things to the player. Saying they are identical play styles and what they bring to the table is incorrect.
As per my opinion, it's also your opinion that they are not balanced. As far as damage is concerned, they might be. However, the numbers help you see the differences between them. If you truly and honestly believe that a few post back and forth with me will make the devs snap to attention and make the Defender into a Corruptor, then I doubt it. If you don't believe it's equal, that's your opinion in what matters to you and what you consider more fun. Fun is indeed subjective, and in a game having the options of playing what's fun to you is available. Do I find your talking about Mass Murder and Law and Order comparable to the difference between Defenders and Corruptors and what people consider entertaining to them on a game sane? Not really, but in my own vein, that's your own opinion and I'm not here to dock it.
As far as playing it to know, the reason I knew the difference between Sleet and Freezing Rain was because I've played both and could see and feel the difference. Playing 1-41 on a Defender and 1-41 on a Corruptor, I noticed a difference. I noticed the lack of debuffing from my powers. I noticed the buff from my powers. I noticed the damage out put from my powers. Do I think that knowing the difference makes me dislike Defenders more in favor of Corruptors? Nope. Did it make me think that Defenders are fairly in balance to the rest of the ATs? Yep. They offer different things at different times which places things into what people prefer.
Defenders should be balanced to Corruptors. Do I think Defenders need to be Corruptors or the other way around? No. They are different ATs for a reason and offer different things. If I wanted to have my characters be X, Y, and Z, then I'll play towards the AT that offers that. That's why they are different play styles.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
I would like to put a few more nails of logic in the coffin for the idea that corrupters will supplant defenders hero side.
For scrappers Dark Melee/Shield Defense is considered the best AV soloing build. By Turbo's logic, this means it's the best and thus everyone gravitates towards playing it. And yet you still see the full range of scrapper primaries and secondaries. Why? Because people will play the sets they think are fun, and/or the sets that fit the character concept. Since all the sets are balanced, but around different things this means that no one choice for power set is best.
Tankers get extreme levels of protection combined with high damage if you use the right sets (fire and super strength, I'm looking at you). So why are people playing scrappers? For that matter, why is it not everyone plays fiery melee and super strength tankers?
If smashing and lethal damage are heavily resisted and thus archery and assault rifle are gimped, why do people play those sets as blasters? On a similar note, why is it not everyone plays psy blasters and energy blasters? I'm lead to believe those are the most powerful sets. Oh, and fire blast for aoe. But people play all the blaster sets. Interesting.
If trick arrow is out preformed by everything and super gimped like we're suppose to believe (according to the defender forums), then why is it I've been encountering more and more trick arrow defenders lately? I thought people avoid playing anything that's gimped in comparison to another AT/Power set.
If controllers buff almost as well as defenders, do the same or more damage then defenders, plus get hard controls... Why do people play defenders? Wouldn't everyone that was going to make a defender roll a controller instead?
If bot/dark and bot/trap masterminds (followed closely by bot/ff) are THE best mastermind sets, why doesn't everyone play those combos exclusively for masterminds? According to the logic of "People will play the superior set/archtype" there should be no merc, necro, thug, or ninja masterminds. Yet I see plenty of them. There should also be no representatives of the various mastermind secondaries. Yet I've seen all being used.
In short, claiming that people will only play the perceived 'best' is a inaccuate. People play what is fun, what fits their concept, and what they personally perceive as best. And since no two people think alike, no two people will agree on this. Even those with the same power sets can slot very differently.
I've seen electric blasters for example who slot for end mod instead of damage. "But that's gimping yourself" some might claim. It's a play style choice. Said blaster may want safety at the expense of kill speed. Some people get so much recharge they can chain their 2 or 3 hardest hitting attacks endlessly. Others like to have an attack chain that can be varied. Even if both have the same power set, they have different goals and play styles.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
No point in trying to argue with these two "believer" types, logic and facts mean nothing against their belief that they are right.
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No point in trying to argue with these two "believer" types, logic and facts mean nothing against their belief that they are right.
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Uhm, your 'logic' and 'facts' ignore a whole lot of factors. According to you, only the 'best' is ever played. And yet your viewpoint is proven wrong time and again. You also ignore the balancing factors in favor of your belief that corrupters are inherently better then defenders due to higher base damage. Very well then, let's see just how much higher the damage is without relying on their inherent. That is the lynch pin of your argument after all.
Corrupter's Electric Blast
Charged Bolts
41.71 average damage
2.5% chance for 41.71 damage for every precentage below 50%
Lightning Bolt
68.40
2.5% chance for 68.40 for every percentage below 50%
Ball Lightning
average damage 42.54
2.5% chance for four ticks of 11.68
damage for every percentage below 50%
Short Circuit
average damage 37.54
2.5% chance for five ticks of 7.51 damage for every percentage below 50%
Zapp
average damage 115.11
2.5% chance for 115.11 damage for every percentage below 50%
Tesla Cage
(crap damage)
Voltic Sentinel
44.49 average damage every 3.5 seconds or so
Thunderous Blast
average damage 217.26
2.5% chance for 41.71 damage for every percentage below 50%
Defender Electrical Blast
Charged Bolts
average damage 36.15
Lightning Bolt
average damage 59.28
Ball Lightning
average damage 36.87
Short Circuit
average damage 32.53
Zapp
average damage 99.76
Tesla Cage
(again crap damage, this time 5.42 instead of 6.whatever)
Voltic Sentinel
average damage 35.59 every 3.7 seconds or so
Thunderous Blast
average damage 193.62
Looks to me like the damage is pretty comparable. Scourge is the only thing that really pulls corrupter damage ahead, but then they were balanced around having scourge. it's also interesting to note that corrupters are listed as a high damage archetype. Defenders on the other hand are listed as a medium damage archetype. So corrupters are SUPPOSE to do more damage then defenders. And the only way they really pull ahead of defenders in damage is via scourge, which can at times be unreliable. Think about that for a moment Turbo. Please, think on it.
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Ok, and here's something else you should consider Turbo. Defenders are balanced around mid range damage and strong team buffs/debuffs. And in all honesty, defenders are probably the most balanced archetype. There's a reason when defenders got an inherent it sucked. They didn't really need anything to begin with. A defender's damage only sucks if you compare it to high damage archetypes. They actually do pretty decent damage if slotted right.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
C'mon people, this Corrupter vs Defender rivalry needs to end. The differences are fairly minute. We need to stop fighting each other and start fighting controllers.... and kins... and kinetic controllers!
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C'mon people, this Corrupter vs Defender rivalry needs to end. The differences are fairly minute. We need to stop fighting each other and start fighting controllers.... and kins... and kinetic controllers!
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I have nothing against corrupters. I personally don't find them fun, but I don't have any grudge against them. What I have a grudge against is people claiming that corrupters are innately superior to defenders thus all defenders should reroll as a corrupter once Going Rogue comes out. But then I also have a grudge against people claiming controllers are innately superior to defenders too.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Doesn't seem like a big difference to you, right Turbo? And yet it is in actual game play. What is part of why I find defenders more fun then corrupters? The fact that they don't die frequently. As I'd previously mentioned, with no to-hit debuff slotting in radiation infection on a defender Atta was unable to kill me. In fact, once I stopped joining PUGs at level six my rad/rad defender practicably was immortal. Only reason that character got deleted at level 26 was because I had grown frustrated with teams back in issue four. My corrupter however still is dying at least six times per mission at least at level 12. Has been since level five. I get tired of dying constantly, and log out in favor of a more fun character. I'm slowly slogging through the levels because my rad/rad corrupter is part of an overall RP storyline me and a friend are doing in CoX. To me, it's not fun so I don't play it. Dying constantly isn't fun.
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I think you just called yourself a bad player.
Furthermore, you've sworn off teaming and you're arguing about two heavily team oriented archetypes. You don't have any high level corrs, so you're specifically talking about low level soloing. You're managing to die 6 times per mission, so you aren't talking high level or even average play. You're seriously blowing my mind. The last time I played a lowbie rad I don't think I've ever had a mission where there were 6 deaths and I rarely do anything other than 8 player pugs. I can't quite comprehend where you're coming from.
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Doesn't seem like a big difference to you, right Turbo? And yet it is in actual game play. What is part of why I find defenders more fun then corrupters? The fact that they don't die frequently. As I'd previously mentioned, with no to-hit debuff slotting in radiation infection on a defender Atta was unable to kill me. In fact, once I stopped joining PUGs at level six my rad/rad defender practicably was immortal. Only reason that character got deleted at level 26 was because I had grown frustrated with teams back in issue four. My corrupter however still is dying at least six times per mission at least at level 12. Has been since level five. I get tired of dying constantly, and log out in favor of a more fun character. I'm slowly slogging through the levels because my rad/rad corrupter is part of an overall RP storyline me and a friend are doing in CoX. To me, it's not fun so I don't play it. Dying constantly isn't fun.
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I think you just called yourself a bad player.
Furthermore, you've sworn off teaming and you're arguing about two heavily team oriented archetypes. You don't have any high level corrs, so you're specifically talking about low level soloing. You're managing to die 6 times per mission, so you aren't talking high level or even average play. You're seriously blowing my mind. The last time I played a lowbie rad I don't think I've ever had a mission where there were 6 deaths and I rarely do anything other than 8 player pugs. I can't quite comprehend where you're coming from.
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Nope, I didn't. I've had more trouble surviving on a corrupter of the same level then defenders of the exact same power sets. I didn't swear off teaming, although back in issue four I got very disgusted with it. Trying to play lowbie rad defenders on teams where people intentionally kill anchors first and formost, then complain when a small heal isn't enough to keep 8 people standing? You'd get tired of it too.
Hell, when I stopped announcing who I'm anchoring debuffs on I'd seen teams stop until they figure out who the anchor is, then kill it first. Then at the time when I stopped teaming with the rad/rad defender I started actually living.
My corrupter though? Tends to die quite frequently. In part it's due to getting the debuffs later, thus not being able to slot them quickly. As a defender I'd had radiation infection for example slotted with two to-hit and three end redux. I'd had enervating field slotted with three end redux, and damage 3 slotted in both my mainstay attacks. That would be neutrino bolt and x-ray beam at low levels since their fast charging. In short, I was for one thing actually gaining more then .16 endurance per second while fighting. Thus solo at least toggles werent' dropping due to lack of endurance.
That's something my corrupter by the way experiences frequently. The defender also got hit far less often too, and when it was hit there was less damage taken. But maybe you don't like to factor that in. Or the fact that lingering radiation at level 12 helps with survivability at low levels far more then another meh blast or aim does. Or are you thinking that the corrupter should have all the primary abilities so far? Let's check that build, shall we? Oh, if a corrupter is doing that, their not getting the debuffs that will help them survive? Amazing isn't it.
That means a corrupter has to chose between meh damage (until an enemy is nearly dead) or even more meh damage and the few defensive powers available at low levels. Gee, is it any wonder survival can be troublesome?
Oh yes, and then there's another wrinkle. Teaming. man that's a headache villain side on Guardian. Either it's a PL team (which I don't do), or they boot me for not being /thermal, or they yell at me to do nothing but spam radiant aura. And then boot me if I do anything sensable like use a debuff or throw out an attack.
My ice/thermal corrupter has another problem... I get booted if I do anything except heal again... Including using the resistance buffs. And that one soloes even worse then the rad/rad due to only having ONE power to rely on defensivly right now... a low value heal.
So yes, I must be a bad player if low level corrupters die frequently. Because there can't be any other reasons can there? Playing defenders couldn't possibly have taught me how to play similar characters, could they?
Oh, another event that made me reluctant to team with defenders for a good long time. And this was the FIRST thing I experienced mind you.
Try picturing this for someone who'd JUST started playing and rolled a dark/rad defender. I'd gotten to level seven and was getting the hang of the character. I had entered the hollows for the first time, and got invited to a team. It was an Atta mission, and the enemies were all level 15. I asked for a sidekick since I knew there was no way I could hit them, let alone survive without it. This is what the team kept telling me:
"You don't need a sidekick, just heal. You don't need to hit, just heal. Don't attack, just heal."
DARK defender remember. To-hit check on the heal. Can you figure out why I got so frustrated with teaming on defenders for a year or two? That was the first attitude towards defenders I encountered. It was the main one I encountered. People who would bring along a defender just for healing, and deliberately negate everything else the defender does.
And if I sound like I'm ranting, I am. Nice going there. You made a blind assumption about player skill based on dying frequently with an archetype which gets slower access to buff/debuff powers then defenders. I love defenders, and their one of the main archetypes I play. I've got at least one of every primary I'm working on. The FF and Sonic ones are lowest since they get few teams and don't solo well.
EDIT
Just tried running the same mission with my rad/rad corrupter again, this time on difficulty 1. Again, endurance runs out I get killed. How does this happen? Well, let's see here. I believe it has something to do with an endurance recovery rate of 1.67 endurance per second, and endurance consumption rate of 1.49 endurance per second. Sure I could hit Accelerate Metabolism and get an end recovery rate of 2.17, but that also speeds up attack recharge. Thus actually causing me to burn endurance faster. Consider that for a moment too before claiming I must be unskilled.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Madam Enigma: I only had one point in my last post. You quoted that post. And then you answered [sic] three entirely different points.
I'm putting you on /ignore because you're not having a dialogue. You're a write-only device.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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No point in trying to argue with these two "believer" types, logic and facts mean nothing against their belief that they are right.
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@Turbo-> ??? Seriously, this from you? You ran away from the previous argument thread a month or so back because you didn't know the difference between sleet and FR and thought they were the same numerically. There's little point in having an argument with someone who's more interested in winning than debate, and that pretty much describes your 'discussion' style.
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I have nothing against corrupters. I personally don't find them fun, but I don't have any grudge against them. What I have a grudge against is people claiming that corrupters are innately superior to defenders thus all defenders should reroll as a corrupter once Going Rogue comes out. But then I also have a grudge against people claiming controllers are innately superior to defenders too.
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@Madam -> I took a dark/arch defender from 14-50 leading pugs in the last two days, softcapped it to ranged, and ran a quick <1hr ITF with the coalition. (/mourn vacation ending last night) Defenders make low leveling easy, and at the high end their increased damage multipliers from debuffs are ... niiiiiice. To level, I ran 54 boss farms rather constantly (led pugs, no pinch hitters or friends helping, often tankless) and it only took about 13 hours total (2 of which was IOing at 50, gawd that took a while - but I managed to softcap range defense, get 37.5% global recharge and some recovery+kb protection, all from tickets - had $4MM left over at the end!) before I was set and off on another crazy (no melee) ITF with a poor little 38 blaster sk'd to me and trying desperately to stay in range to live (his alternative mentors might have been worse, hah). I've done similar on corrs, but since their buff/debuff powers come later, they can't help steamroll as early.
Well played defenders make the low and mid game *easy*, and they stack obscenely well, while corrupters need to wait a bit. I prefer corrs only for fire blast (and somewhat ice), and defenders for sonic, arch and psi blast. As for buffing/debuffing powersets, I'd always rather have the defender version, so it really depends on whether I want to blast that much.
I wouldn't call it a blind assumption, I'm still calling you a bad player based solely on things you say. I'd tell you to read your own posts, but for one I wouldn't want to subject that to even my worst enemies, and you don't seem like the type to admit error.
Also, it's simple to be angsty and breif. Try it.
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No point in trying to argue with these two "believer" types, logic and facts mean nothing against their belief that they are right.
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@Turbo-> ??? Seriously, this from you? You ran away from the previous argument thread a month or so back because you didn't know the difference between sleet and FR and thought they were the same numerically. There's little point in having an argument with someone who's more interested in winning than debate, and that pretty much describes your 'discussion' style.
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Is it just me or do my post get brushed under the carpet for no particular reason. I'm a defender of the non-power gamer mentality. Not everyone is happy until they have their over powered creation that can do everything while eating a bag of chips.
The reason I don't number crunch is because I want to play what is fun, and what is fun to me. Could it be less powerful than a corruptor in terms of damage? Sure, but that's not what's important to my play style or what I consider fun. My Corruptors are fun along with my Defenders. I've yet to feel gimped for playing Defenders while on a team.
Soloing? Not a particular fan of it, otherwise I'd not play either AT and would play something like my Fire/Shield scrapper who's point is to duo with his MA/Shield pact partner or solo if I'm in that mood or simply can't find a team. Is my Fire/Shield scrapper over powered? Not really, it just lends itself better with my play style with the powers it has compared to Corruptors or Defenders.
I think my post might be ignored for either their clarity so there's nothing in question, or that they simply don't help the other person's cause in the debate so they simply ignore it or try to dump it one way or the other. I really don't know why, but if it has to do with making sense then I'm at a loss. If it has to do with not making sense, I'd gladly try to be clearer next time. If it's because I believe fun is more important that number crunching, then I guess a difference of opinion, which makes a discussion, is too much for some to bare.
I understood what Turbo has been saying; I just disagree. If that means that I'm a faulty "believer", then so be it. A difference of opinion is what makes humans human. We aren't borg, and I've stated several ways of addressing the issue if Turbo really believes it is a problem that isn't just poking every thread that comes up and saying "Defenders need to deal more damage." It makes her just repeating herself in every thread without being proactive about it.
Regardless of my opinions, I'm here to help. If someone really believes that way, it should be brought to more attention than camping out in threads started by others and poking the Defenders need more damage argument instead of actually being helpful with the discussion at hand. We get that you want more damage on your Defenders, if I got more damage I wouldn't complain about it. That's being said, I don't think it's completely necessary. However, just because two people have a differing opinion, doesn't mean that I, personally, am abandoning logic and facts. I find X fun, so I play X. If I didn't find X fun, I don't play it and delete it for Y since I enjoy playing Y. This is the logic and facts I am using, and for a game, this is what matter.
Heck, when playing Crainium, me and my mom are eager to pick sculpting. Why? We find it fun and are good at it. For games, winning is fun, but what is fun is fun. If you get through playing a session on a character that isn't fun to play? Why keep him? Does it matter how much damage the character does? If that's how you define fun, then yes. Each person's definition of fun is different. If the simple logic of "people are different" makes me a "believer type", then so be it. I'm enjoying my characters regardless.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
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Oh, and I'll also point out your inacurate statement and why it's inaccruate.
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It takes around 5 of those hours to get to level 12, around 20 to 20, and so forth.
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That is only true if your on a large team that's steamrolling things. In fact, I've actually tried going from level 1 to level 12 in five hours. It didn't happen with normal game play. Not for me at least.
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Everything goes better with patronizing, don't you find? Let me just skim over two misspellings of the same word in the same sentence, and point out that if all my times are doubled- 10 hours to level 12, 300 to level 50- you're still spending 3% of your time in the sub-12 game.
A Corruptor hits its stride later. Yes. You may not want to wait. We get that. But saying that you "have played" Corruptors implies you know how they perform through more than the first 3% of the game, don't you think? Imagine someone was making a pronouncement about how Tanks perform based only on the 1-12 game. How would you react? Really, now, how would you?
Enjoy. Your. Period. Separated. Sentences.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.