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BFR is already huge burst damage, with a long animation, actually. Thing nearly does as much damage as BIB, just a long animation.
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47.71 is nearly as much as 82.42? Really? What metric of comparison are you using there?
Yeah, BFR does do OK damage already. So if it was upped to do KO Blow level damage, would that work?
I agree fully with Madam. I'd rather have my SB at level 12 versus 20, Freezing Rain at 8 instead of 16, and all of my tasty buff and debuffs earlier. I use my secondaries mostly for their control functions instead of their damage. Psi tornado? Great power! Do I want FR at 8 and Psi tornado at 35 or Psi Tornado at 26 and FR at 16...
Oh, if only my Earth/Storm were level 16...
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
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I agree fully with Madam.
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OMG! The world is going to end! Someone actually agrees with me! RUN FOR THE HILLS!!!!!!111!!!!ELEVENTY ONE ONE ONE!!!
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Buffing/debuffing is fun.
I won't have 17 "support" characters on Virtue of 21 characters if I didn't. Defender primaries and Controls are great! I enjoy the occasional blast or two and of course a couple of melee attack (besides brawl). That's why I get the most kick out of Defenders and Dominators. If I could get a tri mix of Defender primaries, controls, and assault or just Defender Primaries and Assault, I'd be *so* very happy. Who doesn't want a Storm/Psionic Assault?
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
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Compared to Scrappers, Tankers used to do low damage but now do burst damage. The Tanker secondaries typically do poor DPS
[/ QUOTE ]This must be some new definition of 'poor' that I was not formerly aware of existing.
Sorry, I wasn't quite clear there.
The 'poor' DPS I was referring to was the meat and potato attacks like Jab, Punch and Haymaker. They're not great are they? But the average DPS for a Tanker is brought up above poor by the irregular bursts of stellar damage like KO Blow.
I wasnt suggesting that Tanker damage overall is poor, I was comparing high burst to low background.
I don't think so. I mean, my /fire tanker doesn't feel like his DPS is bad. I can't even tell you what his best burst attack is.
GFS
-Largo
Founder of A.G.O.N.Y. Supergroup on Victory
Member of Thought Sanctum VG on Victory
Member of St0rm Batallion SG on Guardian
I could probably have worked it out by looking it up, too. But from play experience? Nah. No clear 'WHOA' hit. Just lots and lots of people melting.
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BFR is already huge burst damage, with a long animation, actually. Thing nearly does as much damage as BIB, just a long animation.
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47.71 is nearly as much as 82.42? Really? What metric of comparison are you using there?
[/ QUOTE ]Forgot my slotting on my Ice blast character was a bit weird right now since he's halfway between builds.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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That's part of the problem. They take so freaking long to get their 'core' defensive powers. Made a rad/rad, and it was soo painful trying to get the two toggle debuffs. When I was running a rad/rad defender the set was a joy to play. Corrupters to me take too long to get the fun powers.
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Defenders take too long to get their good blasts and when they do get them they don't make up for the wait to get them because defender base damage is so pitifully low. Not really the case with offensive support powers being secondaries on Corruptors.
[/ QUOTE ]It takes all kinds to make the world go round, Turbo. Some people find the support powers more fun, others find the blasts more fun. No one's fun is more "right" than anyone else's in this case.
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Apparently you missed the part where Madam admitted to not ever playing a corruptor at all then claiming defenders are better in a topic comparing damage/support capabilities between defenders and corruptors and controllers. If you haven't played one of each of those well past lvl 20 then you really don't have a leg to stand on in this topic.
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That's part of the problem. They take so freaking long to get their 'core' defensive powers. Made a rad/rad, and it was soo painful trying to get the two toggle debuffs. When I was running a rad/rad defender the set was a joy to play. Corrupters to me take too long to get the fun powers.
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Defenders take too long to get their good blasts and when they do get them they don't make up for the wait to get them because defender base damage is so pitifully low. Not really the case with offensive support powers being secondaries on Corruptors.
[/ QUOTE ]It takes all kinds to make the world go round, Turbo. Some people find the support powers more fun, others find the blasts more fun. No one's fun is more "right" than anyone else's in this case.
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Apparently you missed the part where Madam admitted to not ever playing a corruptor at all then claiming defenders are better in a topic comparing damage/support capabilities between defenders and corruptors and controllers. If you haven't played one of each of those well past lvl 20 then you really don't have a leg to stand on in this topic.
[/ QUOTE ]Apparently *you* missed the part where I wasn't necessarily referring to Madam_Enigma. Having Corruptor and Defender stormies, I vastly prefer that set on defenders, because the storm powers are the real fun, and I want them early. With Empathy, outside of a dedicated duo, I prefer a controller. With Rad, I want Choking Cloud ASAP, so Defenders are more fun for me (though it does combo very well with some mez sets). With Dark, same thing. With bubbles, I'd rather have my attacks sooner.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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Apparently you missed the part where Madam admitted to not ever playing a corruptor at all then claiming defenders are better in a topic comparing damage/support capabilities between defenders and corruptors and controllers. If you haven't played one of each of those well past lvl 20 then you really don't have a leg to stand on in this topic.
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I have a 5 Defenders over the level of 35 and a I have a level 41 and 33 Corruptor. I also have a level 33 and 50 Controller along with a Dominator, Blaster, Tanker, and Scrapper above level 20. Granted my Blaster is only level 21, but it is above 20.
I tend to like Defenders over all the other archetypes. As I said, I get the buff/debuff powers faster and they are more potent most of the time than their Controller/Corruptor/Mastermind counterparts. Sure, maybe not every power, but Arctic does have a leg to stand on. Also, Madam said nothing about never playing a Controller or Mastermind above level 20, to which buffing/debuffing plays a second fiddle to either pets/attacks and controls.
Corruptors aren't the world, and in my opinion, never will be.
Edit: Oh yeah, I have a level 25 Stalker as well.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
Well, first of all I don't think it's coincidence that of the two Defender Primaries that do not offer any kind of offense bonus to the caster, one of those is not available to Corruptors AT ALL, and the other is replaced with a set with similar powers, but which gives the Corruptor damage bonuses for using his support powers on his allies.
Second, as mentioned, Tankers have a 0.8 base damage modifier, Corruptors are 0.75, and Defenders are 0.65. The attacks themselves are not really the major source of the difference, as Burst attacks really do more damage than any Tanker attack except KO Blow and Total Focus. The real problem with ranged damage is that Sniper attacks, which are the attacks that come closest to those Superior damage melee attacks, have such long animation times.
When you factor in a Defender or Controller's offensive boosts, though, their effective damage is much higher. And in fact, since the Defender gets greater boosts than the Corruptor, the MORE boosts the Defender gets, the closer he comes to equalizing their damage. Tankers, Blasters, Brutes, other ATs, even Controllers and Masterminds to an extent, have about the same level of performance no matter what Primary or Secondary they choose. Only Buff/Debuff has this ability to totally change how much damage the AT does, and Defenders are the AT that depends the most on it.
I'm really convinced that even if Corruptors got Force Field, it would be any more soloable for them. Ask any Mastermind about Bots/FF, and they'll tell you about what it's like to have the lowest damage Mastermind combination through the 18-22 levels. Even Thermal is not particularly popular as a solo set, and it has more -res than FF does.
Force Field is great for what it's great at, but it's not the best at supporting the Defender's Secondary. And the Defender depends on its Primary to support its Secondary. There is a definate lack of design consistency there. And obviously the devs know it, or Pain Domination wouldn't be what it is.
Actually, I'm hoping Going Rogue gives Defenders access to Pain Domination, even if they have to stay Neutral to get it. Maybe we will see a new Force Field that is somewhat the same.
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That's part of the problem. They take so freaking long to get their 'core' defensive powers. Made a rad/rad, and it was soo painful trying to get the two toggle debuffs. When I was running a rad/rad defender the set was a joy to play. Corrupters to me take too long to get the fun powers.
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Defenders take too long to get their good blasts and when they do get them they don't make up for the wait to get them because defender base damage is so pitifully low. Not really the case with offensive support powers being secondaries on Corruptors.
[/ QUOTE ]It takes all kinds to make the world go round, Turbo. Some people find the support powers more fun, others find the blasts more fun. No one's fun is more "right" than anyone else's in this case.
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Apparently you missed the part where Madam admitted to not ever playing a corruptor at all then claiming defenders are better in a topic comparing damage/support capabilities between defenders and corruptors and controllers. If you haven't played one of each of those well past lvl 20 then you really don't have a leg to stand on in this topic.
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Apparently you missed where I said I HAVE played, and do play corrupters, just takes too long to get the yummy powers I really want so I haven't gotten one past 12, while many of my defenders are in the 30's. To me, the blasts are the gravy that helps you solo, not the powers to play the char for. As such the buff set takes too long to unlock to me.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Apparently you missed where I said I HAVE played, and do play corrupters, just takes too long to get the yummy powers I really want so I haven't gotten one past 12
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These days it's about 150 hours to level 50, if you play "traditionally" . It takes around 5 of those hours to get to level 12, around 20 to 20, and so forth.
"I visited Washington, DC" and "I got lost in Washington, DC for a couple hours" are different statements. You haven't played a corruptor- you got lost in one for a couple hours. .
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Ok Fulmens, let me try explaining this one more time. I'll use small words so everyone can understand me this time.
I. Enjoy. The. Buff. Sets. More. Then. The. Blasts.
Is that clear now? Ok, what does that mean? It means that to me the debuffs are the more important and fun powers. Oh, and I'll also point out your inacurate statement and why it's inaccruate.
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It takes around 5 of those hours to get to level 12, around 20 to 20, and so forth.
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That is only true if your on a large team that's steamrolling things. In fact, I've actually tried going from level 1 to level 12 in five hours. It didn't happen with normal game play. Not for me at least.
Oh, and another thing that makes corrupters for me less fun then defenders. By level 12 my old rad/rad defender felt unstoppable. Heck, when I tried soloing Atta I couldn't beat him. However after one hour he'd still not come close to taking me out either.
My rad/rad corrupter? Anything and everything is able to laugh at the to-hit debuff and smack me around. They've been able to since level 5. I spend more time running back to the mission then actually doing the mission most times.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
QR
Some random points:
Way up top, but if you think that Stone/Ice tanks have craptastic damage, you need to play tanks more (as long as we're accusing one another of not playing X enough 
). Ice Melee has fantastic AoE damage now (just don't stay in Granite all day!). No, it's not going to outdamage a Fire blaster.
Ice Blast for defenders have a distinct advantage of having 2 rain powers with blaster damage scales. If you're */Ice and not taking Ice Storm & Blizzard, don't complain too much about the lack of damage, cuz you're sorta doing it to yourself.
I personally don't bother blasting too much w/my defenders except to stack up the secondary effects, i.e. not for damage (except for IS & Blizzard!). No BU (yes, PBU is available), rarely taken Aim, reduced damage scale all means that for the most part, you're not doing a hell of a lot of damage for yourself, esp if you're used to blasters. It took me a while to figure out the kinds of defenders I enjoy playing (see sig), which is to say 95% support, including the blasting part. I love Son & Dark blasts for their effects, and Ice for its AoE damage. I've tried numerous "offender" builds and always found them lacking.
Having said that, I would never, ever play a FF/* defender. Son & Cold, I can do some other stuff after shielding my teammates. The degree of this other stuff was already heavily debated elsewhere, so I'm not going into it again--just personal preference, I dislike playing FF/* defenders (I do play other FF toons, esp Red-side, not in sig obviously).
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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Way up top, but if you think that Stone/Ice tanks have craptastic damage, you need to play tanks more (as long as we're accusing one another of not playing X enough ). Ice Melee has fantastic AoE damage now (just don't stay in Granite all day!). No, it's not going to outdamage a Fire blaster.
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As I understand it, ice melee is the lowest damage tanker secondary. And most every single earth armor tanker I see... runs around in Granite all the time once they have it.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
That's why the devs made Kins. Heaven forbid people be able to be able to manage their blue bars or the speed of their characters.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
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That's why the devs made Kins. Heaven forbid people be able to be able to manage their blue bars or the speed of their characters.
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I know... And heaven forbid kins accept that some people actually have recharge, speed, and endurance under control 
Apparently there's at least a sizable forum population of kins that think every buff is needed 24/7 even if it does more harm then good. A mindset I don't understand.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
I didn't read all the replies but here are a few things you can do to contribute damage.
1) Ice Storm & Blizzard are the same powers that blasters get so get them and use them. Frankenslot them so you get some slow added to the damage and they provide a lot of mitigation in addition to damage. They do cause scatter so use them intelligently but really the scatter is minimal due to the slows. In conjunction with a teammates slow/immobilize (or Ice Storm with your own Force Bubble) they do great damage with no downside.
2) Frost breath is a pretty good AoE.
3) You are not going to be a damage god but you will contribute a lot of defense to teams and will usually add significantly to the over all damage if you use your AoE's as often as possible.
So slot up those AoE attacks because even if they only did 25% the damage of a scrappers single target attacks (made up #, btw) they would still provide a lot of damage if they are used frequently on max number of targets over the course of the mission. The bits I read about tank damage vs defender damage seemed to skip this--defenders generally get more, faster recharging, large AoEs so they can contribute significantly to the team's damage over time. Standard caveat--this may not apply to all teams. You, a kin and 6 fire blasters on a team is going to be a team where you really aren't contributing to damage much.
You are offering a lot of defense and decent control (KB, single-target holds, slows). Your damage isn't going to be great solo (although with the holds you should be safe enough) but a constant stream of AoE damage will help most teams significantly in the long run.
Pinnacle
Glowworm * Brrr * Lilinoe
Protector
Kid Trance * Ms. Impala * Red Helen
Virtue
Pooka Pete
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Ok Fulmens, let me try explaining this one more time. I'll use small words so everyone can understand me this time.
I. Enjoy. The. Buff. Sets. More. Then. The. Blasts.
Is that clear now? Ok, what does that mean? It means that to me the debuffs are the more important and fun powers. Oh, and I'll also point out your inacurate statement and why it's inaccruate.
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It takes around 5 of those hours to get to level 12, around 20 to 20, and so forth.
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That is only true if your on a large team that's steamrolling things. In fact, I've actually tried going from level 1 to level 12 in five hours. It didn't happen with normal game play. Not for me at least.
Oh, and another thing that makes corrupters for me less fun then defenders. By level 12 my old rad/rad defender felt unstoppable. Heck, when I tried soloing Atta I couldn't beat him. However after one hour he'd still not come close to taking me out either.
My rad/rad corrupter? Anything and everything is able to laugh at the to-hit debuff and smack me around. They've been able to since level 5. I spend more time running back to the mission then actually doing the mission most times.
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I think you fail to realize the number of Corruptor builds that can solo an AV (not an EB) is vastly greater than the number of Defender builds that can solo an AV. Defenders get screwed numerically in damage department where as corruptors don't get any where near the handicap in support, the primary and secondary trade is not balanced for the majority of builds. This would have been obvious if you even bothered to play both ATs to 50.
In fact rad/rad vs rad/rad is about the only build that is consistently balanced because it never hits any caps and the -res/+dmg values match perfectly with the damage increase. Trading 21% avg support percent increase for a 21% loss in damage compared to the corruptor.
Many other builds like Cold/Ice vs Ice/Cold aren't so lucky with a 21% avg support increase for a 29% damage loss. Even if Sleet was -35% res for defender like Freezing Rain is for Storm (it's 30% for both corr and def), it would still be a 26% damage loss. These calculations include scourge which is an average damage buff of 17.52% to corruptor final damage over time.
It's the worst for Kinetics actually with defender damage cap being 400% and Siphon Power and Fulcrum shift easily capping it and corruptors with a damage cap of 500% can easily reach 450% by themselves. Since Siphon Speed and Speed Boost are completely identical as is the majority of Fulcrum Shift, this makes Kin defenders trade a 10% support advantage for a 35% damage loss.
BFR is already huge burst damage, with a long animation, actually. Thing nearly does as much damage as BIB, just a long animation.