So the gloves come off I see, so be it.
[ QUOTE ]
As a self proclaimed "hardcore test PvPer", you of all people should know that being a good emp involved a lot more than "mashing one button over and over". To heal through a coordinated assault/good spike on a team mate was no easy feat.
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Perhaps we should revisit my original comment, which I'm afraid we'll have to apply to, well it would seem, almost all of your replies.
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The following comments are regarding zone PvP only, as arena is still completely customisable according to the event in question.
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What coordinated assault/good spike? We're in the zone, where people are effectively enjoying a pickup game, not a organized vent 3 2 1 spike. Coordinated arena is a whole different animal than zone PvP, hence my pre words of explanation prior to specific details as to why zone pvp is now better. Your comments certainly apply to arena, but do not carry over to zone. It is a rarity indeed in zone to find an emp/therm that double stacks, or for that matter, even bothers to keep clear mind/thaw refreshed and active perma. In a casual environment, that's to be expected.
Uncoordinated damage spams from uncoordinated players to out-do an emp's heal should occur in zone. The mob mentality rules there, pick on the guy that is hurting, and everyone piles on over the next 20 secs. Why exactly should 1 toon be able to counter 3-5 unorganized people attacking the target in a casual environment? The perfect example to use as a comparison is the 5 v 5 arena matches I'm currently involved in on test ladder. If we count down a spike and go, that target needs to be dead in 6 secs or less or its almost always a failed spike under the current unsuppressed heal rules being used. You really want that back in a casual environment? The emps roll in zone is no longer the heal spam that it was pre i13. You can effectively provide the spike target with 100% of his health back, at which point its time to change to a disruption roll. Debuff, hold, knockback, and target phase, ect. These are the new protection tools at the emps disposal, which make the game significantly more fun for me as a healer. Now there is no longer any pressure on the healer to do nothing but.
Evasion pre i13 was cake to the point that it was in fact not even evasion. You simply turned, and super jump away from the danger. Activation time on any power used on you stopped that pursuer long enough that as long as you were slotted correctly, that enemy could no longer catch you, period. You could have had 3 people chasing you, the situation applied to all 3. As long as you kept moving in straight lines, you were safe. You may not know this due to your comments, but combat jumping is still unsuppressed movement. Properly slotting hurdle and combat jump with jump is require to get real benefit though if you would like to try it on test to confirm. I combine this with low slung buildings all the time to allow me to live in a situation that without it, I would not. It also works wonders around very tall buildings, where your suppression ends up being less than the attackers, allowing LoS break and time to get back into unsuppressed super jump. I could go into more detail on the best evasion details. However, if you honestly believe "evading in i13+ PvP involves moving in one direction at a slow pace" is all that's involved, than its clear I had best keep the best secrets to myself.
[ QUOTE ]
What? lol. Not even close. In i12, you actually had to use coordinated attacks to kill a player buffed by a coordinated team. It only makes sense that you need coordination to defeat coordinated opponents. If a coordinated team is hardly better than a mob of random inexperienced players, then what is the point of even teaming in the first place? The whole basis of City of Heroes is that teaming makes individual ATs shine more than they would solo. I'm pretty sure it says that in the manual (which I thumbed through in like issue 2 or so).
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First of all you actually took my comment out of context completely. I was referencing resistance shields and their effectiveness with the new reduced protection from DR. You may want to go back and read that. However, I will go ahead and address your off topic point. Remember my comment in the original post about how difficult if not impossible it could be for for 3+ people in zone to kill little old me pre i13? Now compound that 10 times over on a coordinated team. Well organized teams really had no place in zone back then. As I said before, it was flat out boring for the team due to the unstoppable nature that i12 provided that style of play vs anything other than a well organized enemy team. We actually stopped zone running because it was making our arena team sloppy. It was so easy it felt like PvE. Back in the day you could have literally put a well organized team of 8 up vs 30 unorganized people, and a grand total of 8 would have wiped the floor with them all. The point of teaming, is to make your individual AT shine more than they would solo, and have an advantage. The design intent was never to turn those teamed players into rampaging gods vs all the noobs that the zone had to offer.
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DR wasn't voted in because people like DR on better than DR off
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I am perfectly aware of the details on the reasons why this change was made. I just pointed out the current ladder situation in case you were not informed, yes?
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I could probably write a book about why i13+ PvP is exponentialy worse than i12 PvP.
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It's good you didn't write that book here, as it would have been completely pointless with your confusion over the arena vs zone topic currently being discussed. I am completely fine with many of the things you have said so far, from the arena point of view. I just disagree with your opinions in the context of zone PvP.
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You claimed to be a veteran test server PvPer, yet no one I know seems to know who you are. Which SGs/VGs did you play for? and when?
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Since you asked, I got involved in the VG ladder over 2 years ago. I stayed with my starting team until the bitter end of the original ladder, which found us in the #2 slot prior to the ladder collapsing soon after the pending i13 changes. Since then I've been with 2 other teams, the current one that you can see in my sig. For all teams involved I was the starting stalker, with enough skill to be considered a reasonably good player. However since you didn't ask nicely, I'll let you scamper off to collect the names you so desire on your own, in an attempt to build an elitist comment employed to sting me to the core. I eagerly await your masterpiece of words.
Alright, champ.
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Since you asked, I got involved in the VG ladder over 2 years ago. I stayed with my starting team until the bitter end of the original ladder, which found us in the #2 slot prior to the ladder collapsing soon after the pending i13 changes
[/ QUOTE ].
I can tell you right now that there were a total of two respected VGs in i12 (Renegades, and GMW - both of which held the #1 and # 2 spots). I can also tell you that you didn't play for either. Meaning that your claim of being on a "#2 slot" team is only made possible by the fact that the teams above you dropped the ladder before i13 hit. As for me being an "elitist", I'm not the one who claimed to be a hardcore test PvPer. I'm also not the one pretending I was in a #2 ranked VG.
As for coodination in zone PvP - Are you honestly suggesting that players shouldn't heavily benefit from coordination with others? If so, I think you are playing the wrong game.
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You may not know this due to your comments, but combat jumping is still unsuppressed movement
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You obviously don't know this, but combat jumping hasn't been "unsuppressed" movement since i4.
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It's good you didn't write that book here, as it would have been completely pointless with your confusion over the arena vs zone topic currently being discussed.
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I was tempted to dignify that with a response, but then I realized that it was comming from the same guy who said this:
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Uncoordinated damage spams from uncoordinated players to out-do an emp's heal should occur
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As for the comment that I supposedly took out of context: I didn't. Perhaps it was my fault for not being more clear. Despite resistance and defense buffs on a player, it is still increadibly easy to bring the player down with little if any effort or coordination.
Over Evasion in Zone PvP: there were a myriad of ways to stop a target from evading. Dominator holds/TK, KB powers, Slows, loltpfoe; the list goes on. Infact, that alone is what gave several powersets viablity in PvP which under the i13 system they no longer possess.
Am I saying that the i12 system was perfect? Of course not. There were plenty of things that could have used improvement. I totally agree that evading in zones was a bit too convienient - but consistent and unrelentless suppression is not the answer. What happens when you do fight that coordinated team using even semi-decent spikes? Does evasion need to be more difficult? I know the common conception is that "most teams in zones don't call spikes". In truth, back in i12, even teams from casual SGs like PvP Heroes and United Heroes called spikes on vent. Most other teams called targets in team chat . Even if that weren't the case - creation of coordinated teams should be encouraged, not discouraged. If teams are encouraged to put out better gameplay you get an atmosphere that is more competative overall.
My suggestion: Rather than suppression - give the target a reason not to over-evade. Create actual objectives in zone PvP. Rather than just a bunch of Heroes and Villains fighting in one sanctioned area (isn't that what arena is?), zones should have desireable objectives that are imperative to the success of the players (the pillboxes in RV don't cut it, at all). This way, when a player evades to the point where he is simply running away from the action, he is abandoning his objective and is no better to his team than a dead target.
Obviously that isn't THE DEFINATE WAY to go about it. But it's a concept. As to what the objectives/rewards for completing them would be: I don't know. I'm not a dev.
GMW lost to UJL right before the ladder ended in a forfeit, after they brought a joke lineup of like 6 stalkers or some [censored].
And before GMW reformed and assumed the #2 position, UJL held it steadfastly.
That's the only cosigning I have.
[ QUOTE ]
I can tell you right now that there were a total of two respected VGs in i12 (Renegades, and GMW - both of which held the #1 and # 2 spots). I can also tell you that you didn't play for either. Meaning that your claim of being on a "#2 slot" team is only made possible by the fact that the teams above you dropped the ladder before i13 hit. As for me being an "elitist", I'm not the one who claimed to be a hardcore test PvPer. I'm also not the one pretending I was in a #2 ranked VG.
As for coordination in zone PvP - Are you honestly suggesting that players shouldn't heavily benefit from coordination with others? If so, I think you are playing the wrong game.
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First of all you need to check your facts. GMW did not end the season at the #2 slot, they ended #3. They LOST their last official scheduled match prior to their departure. The #2 slot was taken from them according to ladder rules in a match.
My personal description of hardcore would in no way qualify me as an elitist. If I told someone else that my opinion of myself made me a better player than them, then I would be an elitist. Your comment "yet no one I know seems to know who you are" certainly qualify you as one.
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The point of teaming, is to make your individual AT shine more than they would solo, and have an advantage. The design intent was never to turn those teamed players into rampaging gods vs all the noobs that the zone had to offer.
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Did you bother to read what I wrote? Heavy benefits should not equate to immortality, as i12 zone environment laid it out. I could point out that the devs agree with my opinion and actually CHANGED THE GAME to fix this problem, but then I think I've eluded to this many times already. You sir are now the one playing the wrong game. If you don't like the zone changes, its time you head on out.
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You obviously don't know this, but combat jumping hasn't been "unsuppressed" movement since i4.
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Classic, you might want to check your facts. This has been a bug since the beginning of time that the devs have stated they do not intend to put resources into fixing. Combat jumping does not suppress when you attack or are attacked. Please feel free to post on the PvP forum and ask so you can be enlightened since you dont believe me, or for that matter just enter the zone and try it yourself. Clearly there is no reason to bother responding to any of your other evasion comments after that debacle.
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Despite resistance and defense buffs on a player, it is still incredibly easy to bring the player down with little if any effort or coordination.
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As it should be. If one dominator starts to spike a target, does damage, 2 more pile on to that target because its wounded, followed by another 2, its time to phase or die. Who cares if it takes 20 seconds for that pile on to finish its buildup? The end result is you have 5 ranged damage dealers on you. This is the way most of the current PvP MMO's are currently put together in an open zone environment. General zone fights are designed by developers as a quick fix for competitive combat. Most include some vague uneeded goal to try and insert a bit of purpose into the fight. If you dont provide some kill satisfaction to the average joe, he's not going to enjoy your game for very long.
[ QUOTE ]
As for the comment that I supposedly took out of context: I didn't. Despite resistance and defense buffs on a player, it is still incredibly easy to bring the player down with little if any effort or coordination.
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You did, go back and read it again. Funny part is your added comment above still was off my topic lol. My original point was that shields are about as effective as they were in i12. Most people complain now that they are worst, I believe that's incorrect, that is why I posted the details supporting my opinion on that. It was still incredibly easy to bring a shielded player down with little if any effort or coordination in i12 as long as they didn't run away immediately. The problems began with no heal suppression, which is the whole point of this. I'll even throw in another example for you. Prior to i13 I could self heal over 6,000 points of damage going through a tray of greens, escape, have a turret or npc kill me, then make another trip to the base to refill. (base runs for greens take about 45 seconds total including load time to get back to the zone on a reasonable computer) Combine that with phase/pff and it was just lame and close to impossible to kill a good popper. Same applied to a toon with a pocket emp.
[ QUOTE ]
I know the common conception is that "most teams in zones don't call spikes". In truth, back in i12, even teams from casual SGs like PvP Heroes and United Heroes called spikes on vent. Most other teams called targets in team chat . Even if that weren't the case - creation of coordinated teams should be encouraged, not discouraged.
[/ QUOTE ]
Personally I find that any team I'm on is calling targets, since me or someone else are calling targets in chat. However, my belief is while this could be considered some level of coordination, in i12 it was not enough. For a spike to truly be effective on an unsuppressed target that had emp back up, simply calling the target didn't do the job. You needed to get confirmed locks, followed by a countdown, or that emp had the situation covered. No pickup team had the patience for that level of cordination. The emp heals, combined with green pops, and a turn and run meant anyone with any competence was away and still living, instead of dead and on the ground as the game stands now. Team coordination still gives an excellent advantage, it's just not the evil monster it used to be.
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My suggestion: Rather than suppression - give the target a reason not to over-evade. Create actual objectives in zone PvP. Rather than just a bunch of Heroes and Villains fighting in one sanctioned area (isn't that what arena is?), zones should have desireable objectives that are imperative to the success of the players (the pillboxes in RV don't cut it, at all). This way, when a player evades to the point where he is simply running away from the action, he is abandoning his objective and is no better to his team than a dead target.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now this, I can get on board with. The vague zone goals currently provided are a joke, as I'm afraid they are in almost all of the PvP MMO's I've played up to this point. Happy to see we can agree on something.
The things that I never liked about the old pvp was how rigged Fortunas and EM stalkers were.
Post deleted by Moderator 08
[ QUOTE ]
First of all you need to check your facts. GMW did not end the season at the #2 slot, they ended #3. They LOST their last official scheduled match prior to their departure. The #2 slot was taken from them according to ladder rules in a match.
[/ QUOTE ]
GMW brought a joke team of 6 to that official, since they didn't have enough people show up. Most of them had already called it quits after hearing news of i13. The fact that you managed to beat a joke team of 6 in a 6v8 match is hardly impressive. I don't remember UJL even comming within 20 points of GMW in most practices and officials. You starting for UJL is also irrelevent, since they only had one good stalker anyway (Nicor).
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For all teams involved I was the starting stalker, with enough skill to be considered a reasonably good player
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You didn't start for RPvPH. Divine and Void were the starting stalkers. I don't think anyone in RPvPH considered you to be a reasonably good player, either. Except for Void, of course. He really appreiciated it when you gave him tips on stalking.
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anyone with any competence was away and still living
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And yet you managed to get farmed time after time.
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I could point out that the devs agree with my opinion
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Because being in agreement with the devs generally puts you on the side of reason... Oh, wait. Having an opinion is one thing, but quoting the devs as a standard of right action in any case is pretty uncredible (much like UJL's reputation as a PvP VG).
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shields are about as effective as they were in i12
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Um, what?
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You obviously don't know this, but combat jumping hasn't been "unsuppressed" movement since i4.
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Classic, you might want to check your facts. This has been a bug since the beginning of time that the devs have stated they do not intend to put resources into fixing. Combat jumping does not suppress when you attack or are attacked. Please feel free to post on the PvP forum and ask so you can be enlightened since you dont believe me, or for that matter just enter the zone and try it yourself. Clearly there is no reason to bother responding to any of your other evasion comments after that debacle.
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Combat jumping itself didn't suppress, but you still moved at the same suppressed speed, even using combat jumping. If you had your movement speed monitored in your combat attributes, you'd probably have noticed.
I'm sure it's safe to say that by i12, 3 slotted hurdle and combat jumping for more efficient movement wasn't a revolutionary concept. The movement was certainly just that - more efficient - but not faster.
It all boils down to this: A coordinated team should require coordination to overcome. I'm not sure how anyone can disagree with that.
hahaho who is having fun today? I could use T word but it is against EULA to mention it.
edit: oh and wow silit vs hellora... guys, just don't bother, we can argue all we want about opionions, pvp and w/e, devs don't care, have no time etc. Save your time, for real.
tersday?
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hai sexy....mind link in tree too oun!
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1st guess: are you vert 
?
Wrong I am Marqui the cutest girl that plays CoH
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this sounds like justin...
strike 1
strike 2
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tox help me...
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lolUJL. That is all.
22 50's in Bio
@Siphonic
RIP PX, GMW, and the game that used to be fun.
Still playing for reasons unknown.
[ QUOTE ]
GMW brought a joke team of 6 to that official, since they didn't have enough people show up. Most of them had already called it quits after hearing news of i13. The fact that you managed to beat a joke team of 6 in a 6v8 match is hardly impressive. I don't remember UJL even coming within 20 points of GMW in most practices and officials. You starting for UJL is also irrelevant, since they only had one good stalker anyway (Nicor).
[/ QUOTE ]
Sucks being wrong huh? So now after the facts come out you try and back peddle? Regardless of why they lost, they were still the #3, which you were ether too ignorant to know, or flat out lying to prove your point. Why do I have to keep providing you with all the facts?
If you "remember" UJL never coming within 20 point in officials, then whoops, here comes more lies again. Is it compulsive for you? The widest spread ever vs them in an official was 12 points, and on only 1 occasion did GMW win an official vs us with only 2 games played. (5-4 and 6-2. That's an epic beat down they gave us huh?) All others resulted in a 3rd game.
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You didn't start for RPvPH. Divine and Void were the starting stalkers. I don't think anyone in RPvPH considered you to be a reasonably good player, either. Except for Void, of course. He really appreciated it when you gave him tips on stalking.
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I played starter in all practices, however due to family issues I was never able to attend officials. Thus for the time I played, I started.
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And yet you managed to get farmed time after time.
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You had never heard of me and now you suddenly remember me being farmed lol? Do we have to talk about the compulsive lying again?
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Because being in agreement with the devs generally puts you on the side of reason... Oh, wait. Having an opinion is one thing, but quoting the devs as a standard of right action in any case is pretty uncredible (much like UJL's reputation as a PvP VG).
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My opinion of the ridiculous heal situation predated i13 by a long shot. (nice job avoiding my comment on the 6k green pop heal reinforcement by the way) For zone play, the only solution that would draw a larger crowd of casual players was to go the way they did. The fact that many of the long time zone PvPers were not a fan of this format in THIS game, doesn't change the fact that the devs were finally trying to fall in line with the industry standard. The objective was to increase activity in PvP zone play, this has been accomplished, which in turn is going to provide the devs with the data that their decision was the right one. They screwed up huge by not fully implementing all the arena options originally, which lost them their arena supporters, but that is not what this conversation is about.
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Combat jumping itself didn't suppress, but you still moved at the same suppressed speed, even using combat jumping. If you had your movement speed monitored in your combat attributes, you'd probably have noticed.
I'm sure it's safe to say that by i12, 3 slotted hurdle and combat jumping for more efficient movement wasn't a revolutionary concept. The movement was certainly just that - more efficient - but not faster.
[/ QUOTE ]
Combat jumping is one speed, that doesn't suppress when you attack or are attacked. The movement speed monitor in combat attributes doesn't work precisely for that reason. What exactly is it that you don't understand about that? Apparently 3 slotting hurdle and combat jumping is a revolutionary concept if I'm still explaining the basics to you lol.
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It all boils down to this: A coordinated team should require coordination to overcome. I'm not sure how anyone can disagree with that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Your opinion is based on a casual and revenue free environment. (which is the standard organized arena player opinion, which I share when playing in arena) In that land of the hardcore I'd be on board with you, however the devs have to consider what you are not. The vast makeup of those in PvP zones are there for a bit of casual fun and kill accomplishment. If as a dev you do not provide easy access to both for the mob in what was designed to be a casual setting, you run the risk of those players leaving, and lost revenue. The devs make decisions based on their wallet and the mob, not an ideal setting where everyone in zone has a 3 billion perfect IO build and are all organized into lean practiced vent teams.
Post deleted by Moderator 08
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I could probably write a book about why i13+ PvP is exponentialy worse than i12 PvP. That would be a huge waste of effort though.
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Under i13 rules defense shields have about as much or move viability in zone as resist
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Correct, both are almost completely useless now.
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I12's skilless organized zone heal spam is no longer possible in the current environment. Now after 3-4 heals, the target needs to phase, or if that is down, actually use strategy like (heaven forbid) LoS breaks to provide the healer, who now actually has to count down in his head the end of the heal suppression time, instead of mashing 1 button over and over
[/ QUOTE ]
As a self proclaimed "hardcore test PvPer", you of all people should know that being a good emp involved alot more than "mashing one button over and over". To heal through a coordinated assault/good spike on a team mate was no easy feat. Not only did emps have to worry about consistently healing targets, they had to keep buffs up, and evade without getting so evasive that they were unable to heal/buff the team.
Heal decay makes it possible for uncoordinated damage spams from uncoordinated players to out-do an emp's heal. The point is this: Healing through an uncoordinated assault SHOULD be EASY for a competant emp - otherwise what good is an emp in the first place?
As for your comment about "using strategy" to evade and "break LoS": evasion is not a skill with travel supression being so consistent on an evading target. Infact, evading in i13+ PvP involves moving in one direction at a slow pace, hoping that the people chasing you are too lazy or too bad to finish you off.
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balances out vs the the old i12 system.
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What? lol. Not even close. In i12, you actually had to use coordinated attacks to kill a player buffed by a coordinated team. It only makes sense that you need coordination to defeat coordinated opponents. If a coordinated team is hardly better than a mob of random inexperienced players, then what is the point of even teaming in the first place? The whole basis of City of Heroes is that teaming makes individual ATs shine more than they would solo. I'm pretty sure it says that in the manual (which I thumbed through in like issue 2 or so).
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(though if you have been following the current ladder you will notice that DR was in fact voted in, just without TS and HS)
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I have. DR wasn't voted in because people like DR on better than DR off. DR was voted in because of the crazy resistance effects that occur when DR is off. Without the unresisted debuffs of i12, it wasn't really possible to get kills in "DR off" ladder matches unless you could land a double AS - making for a very two dimensional pvp experience. Even that being the case, the ladder continued with DR off until the "no heal decay" option was introduced.
You claimed to be a veteran test server PvPer, yet no one I know seems to know who you are. Which SGs/VGs did you play for? and when?