Venture's Reviews IV: The Search for Part III
By
Aces_High,
Posted on: 2009-07-01 15:15 in Mission Architect
Arc #195149, "The Horsemen Chronicles (Part 1)
tl;dr: 3 stars. Offenses: "just a bunch of stuff that happened", balance and plot issues
Reviewed on: 7/3/2009
Level Range: 10-14
Character used: The Philosoraptor/Freedom
"Part 1"...not a good sign.
"Horseman Alpha", leader of a special Longbow unit in charge of monitoring Praetorian activity, wants your help. The Praetorians are a threat level 40+ outfit; why is this job going to security level 10-14 characters? Moving on... The Horsemen detected a brief dimensional anomaly originating from Praetoria and ending up in Paragon's sewers. The browser claims that this uses an easier version of the Vahzilok, but I didn't see any change. You have to crawl through the sewers until you find a few bodies of water department workers, one of which is missing its ID badge. Finding that triggers the spawn of Omega, a Ninjitsu/Trick Arrow Elite Boss with a fairly large spawn of Vahzilok guards. This is really over the top for an arc that tops out at 14. Omega teleports out on defeat.
Alpha's investigation concludes that Omega is a Praetorian (I can't imagine of who) and he's on the move again, somehow agitating a bunch of Skulls into an attack on Oranbega. Not on the Circle, which has low-ranking members in Kings Row, but Oranbega itself. This should be like a re-enactment of the battle of Ypres, but anyway.... The place is full of Skulls complaining that the Circle stole one of their bandanas. There is no indication that this bandana is special in any way, but the Skulls have gone to war over it. There's a Madness Mage to deal with and three display cases to check. Two of them have artifacts that should be worthy of attention; the third probably held the missing bandana. Clicking it spawns Omega again, and again with a large guard party (2 LTs, 2 Minions). He's set to Entire Encounter, too. On your return Alpha still has no idea what's up.
Alpha gets Synapse to give him access to the database on Praetoria, and thus gets the information he needs to actually do his job: the Praetorian counterpart to the Freedom Corps ("Force Initiative"...the author's invention, as far as I know, and thus likely to be contradicted fairly soon) has established a unit called "Wolfpack" run by Omega, and it reports to Tyrant. Omega's now been sighted in the Hollows dealing with Outcasts, so off you go. This one's a Cimerora cave map with Outcasts and Trolls looking for a "pale stone key". Omega is present again but as an optional encounter, as you actually get the key before he finds it this time.
Omega's response is to take hostages, including Dave Wincott's son Sam. You're to bring the key to the site or else. There isn't time to create a fake so Alpha sends you with the real one. The entry pop-up narrates you handing over the key to one of Omega's Hellion allies as soon as you enter. Most of the hostages are then released, except for three he's kept as "insurance". Personally I don't know of a single police force that will negotiate for hostages, but anyway.... Sam is among the three, of course, and tells you that Omega stole his "Badge of Honor". That should get anyone with a badge-hound.com account after him, at least.
For the finale, Omega is going after a particular Clockwork fragment in Steel Canyon. He's somehow convinved the Clockwork King to lend him some wind-ups for this. Alpha explains that each of these objects is connected to one of the Origins of Power, and having all five would allow Omega to open a permanent portal to Praetoria. This looks like a job for a level 10 character! You have to find the Clockwork fragment, then stop construction of three portal devices (destroyable objects), then defeat a triggered Clockwork Boss, who calls an ambush, during which fight the Clockwork steal the fragment from you (HOW?) and take it to Omega, who is supposed to spawn after the Boss' entire encounter is dealt with...but didn't. And there was no way I was going through all that again.
The arc has no theme and has some significant balance issues. Using an Elite Boss for Omega, along with high settings for guards, is over the top for an arc this low, and it's exacerbated by having him appear repeatedly. Frankly, he's not interesting enough to want to fight once, never mind 3-5 times. The arc's level range is doubly problematic given the storyline. The Praetorians are a world-class threat; why is this work being handed off to rookie heroes? And how is Omega able to get so many factions to co-operate with him so easily? The dialog is competent and using the low-level arc souvenirs is cute, but this one has more than its fair share of problems.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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The Praetorians are a threat level 40+ outfit; why is this job going to security level 10-14 characters?
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The Longbow is led by Miss Liberty, have heavy-hitters such as Crimson and Indigo, and is backed up by the might of the Freedom Phalanx. Why is your Lv1 villain picking fights with them in Mercy Island?
You're not dealing with the big guns of Praetoria (yet). You're dealing with one of their lower-level threats. Tyrant tried to blaze in with the big guns and that failed, so he decided to take a different approach this time and send in a "small gun" and try to infiltrate Paragon City from the bottom up. I thought I explained that, but I might've done that in the Wolfpack arc instead. I'll have to reread the arc and see where I can add that in.
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The browser claims that this uses an easier version of the Vahzilok, but I didn't see any change.
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A typical Vahzilok group (On Heroic) usually has four minions or 1 Lt and 2 minions. When I put them in their own custom group, their spawn started following the rules of other CoH groups (3 minions, 1 minion & 1 Lt, or 1 solo Lt). That makes them a little bit easier to deal with. I don't know how much this affects the Vahzilok spawning behavior on higher difficulty levels.
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the Praetorian counterpart to the Freedom Corps ("Force Initiative"...the author's invention, as far as I know, and thus likely to be contradicted fairly soon)
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Force Contingent, actually. I plan on bringing in Wolfpack underlings in later arcs, and using a reskinned Longbow group. The Longbow critters have gigantic "FC" on their chests that cannot be edited out. Just my way or preemptively hand-waving that away. When Going Rogue comes out, and a bunch of new mobs, including Tyrant's own "Longbow/Arachnos" group, show up I'll just change over to that. That's an easy enough detail to fix when the time comes.
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and take it to Omega, who is supposed to spawn after the Boss' entire encounter is dealt with...but didn't.
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That's odd. You're the second person that's happened to. It's never happened to me during any of my playthroughs. Out of curiosity, what difficulty level did you play it on?
That map has five "rear" objective spawn points. Three are taken up by the portal generators, one by the Clockwork boss, and one by Omega. So there should not be any problem at all. It's weird that's happened twice now. I'll have to take a look at that.
Thanks for the review and the feedback.
Play my MA arcs!
Tracking Down Jack Ketch - ArcID #2701
Cat War! - ArcID #2788
I did feel the need to make a reply to you Venture after I saw your review in your last thread on Arc #175675, "A Princess of Mars"
When making a tribute capturing the atmosphere of the stories is what I seek. I have had many, many, many people tell me it was the most FUN AE they have played.
You disliked it.
I accept that. Understand the complete story with full writing and custom Zodangan army was 154.98% - So at that stage I decided to cut to the bone everything except the Green Warriors and the main custom characters.
The finished story was 99.97%
There was no way to add anything further. To do so would have required cutting the Green Warriors. That I would not do.
The arc is best played with a full team. It is auto 50 so you can have anyone you like on your team. The feeling of the green hordes crashing into you is what I sought.
Unfortunately the Zodangan army is the victim and as you have pointed out the writing as there was not room left for even one more word.
Don't take my word for what I say look at what I signed onto today:
[Tell] 2009-07-03 23: 32:49 Message From @Nifty : Feedback on Architect Mission A Princess of Mars: Fun missions
[Tell] 2009-07-03 23: 32:54 Message From @Flayme : Feedback on Architect Mission A Princess of Mars: An excellent tribute to an excellent series, well done
People I don't know and who have FUN.
Fun is my goal as no one in history will ever confuse Edgar Rice Burroughs with Shakespeare or Bronte. But damn that guy told a FUN story 
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The Longbow is led by Miss Liberty, have heavy-hitters such as Crimson and Indigo, and is backed up by the might of the Freedom Phalanx.
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Crimson and Indigo are part of some other government agency.
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
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I did feel the need to make a reply to you Venture after I saw your review in your last thread on Arc #175675, "A Princess of Mars"
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I will no longer respond to or even read responses to my reviews posted in this or any future review threads
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On a personal note, I thought the arc couldn't be as bad as Venture made it out to be.
It was.
I don't know what those people were on but I doubt you'll post this feedback:
"No plot. No explanation. No reason for the Cimerorans. Custom group a collection of unlockable weapons with no sense to it whatsoever. Venture was right."
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
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The Longbow is led by Miss Liberty, have heavy-hitters such as Crimson and Indigo, and is backed up by the might of the Freedom Phalanx.
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Crimson and Indigo are part of some other government agency.
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Actually, they're listed as Longbow in the MA. So I'll take that for what it's worth =)
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
<QR>
I felt I better preemptively warn the esteemed Reviewer that my arc is both JABOSTH and also the dreaded 1st part of a 3 arc "arc". I wanted it be similar to well-paced episodic TV/comic so I have a self-contained story in each arc as well as the over-arcing storyline. Depending on your level of like/dis-like of this arc I will submit the next 2 parts for your perusal after you have recovered from this one .
My 50s:
Prime Minister MA/SR Scrap - Protector
Captain Hit-Guy DM/Reg Scrap - Freedom
Prime-Minister ILL/TA Troller - Freedom
Ultimate Minister Inv/SS Tanker - Freedom
Hi Venture!
Thank you for reviewing Kiss Hello Goodbye, I always find your reviews interesting, entertaining and insightful, even when I don't agree.
Just for perspective, I want to mention a couple of points here; our readers can take them as they will.
- I know people will either love or hate the Chandler Pastiche; sorry you hate it.
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You get a license plate for a truck that left just before you arrived, which Eden is able to track for you, though I have no idea why anyone she could conceivably have reasonably turned to as an investigator would need her help to run down a license plate number.
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I thought I'd put that in, since as the architect, I have no idea whether the character you choose to run in the mission can do that sort of thing. I thought it was better to say she did it than to tell the player their character did something out of their skill range. Besides, the Dame actually chooses the player to use as a patsy, not for their investigative skills.
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The arc is a Mary Sue story that plays the character for a sap and has poor game play to boot.
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It's not actually intended as a Mary Sue...the Dame's Mind Control is just there to justify the mind-befuddling powers that the Dame character nearly always has in Noir/Hardboiled stories (in which she is usually playing the protagonist for a sap). I will back her down from an AV so the PToDs won't be such PitAs.
Note that the arc is written so that you do see through her ruse and have a chance to bring her to justice.
As far as gameplay, I figured that Gorilla (like most Custom Critters) would be a pushover for some builds and extremely tough for others, hence he is optional and as you noted, amply warned about. When testing the arc, I was able to complete the objectives while running from him on squishy toons, which is a kind o gameplay I occaisionally find refreshing: trying to accomplish a goal while some Implacable Man is in pursuit.
I can see how it wasn't your cup of tea; perhaps the next one will be more to your liking. 
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
If I ever decide to subject my Arc to be reviewed by Venture and the worst thing he says about it is JABOSTH I'll be happy with it. I find it hard enough to make sure the overall plot makes coherent sense, so trying to shoehorn some deeper meaning to it is out of the question.
If I wantd to write morality plays I'd be writing Star Trek episodes.
TL;DR version: Heroes - Stop what the bad guys are doing. Villains - Have a masterplan and obliterate everyone between you and it. Co-OP - There's a big enough bad that kills all life as we know it. Everything else is just set dressing and wardrobe.
"Steady as a mountain, attack like fire, still as a wood, swift as the wind.
In heaven and earth I alone am to be revered."
- Motto on the war banner of Takeda Shingen (1521-1573)
Everything else is just set dressing and wardrobe.
I'm sure Shakespeare could have used that advice.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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If I ever decide to subject my Arc to be reviewed by Venture and the worst thing he says about it is JABOSTH I'll be happy with it. I find it hard enough to make sure the overall plot makes coherent sense, so trying to shoehorn some deeper meaning to it is out of the question.
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I have to agree with this. My primary concern for my arc is telling a good and coherent story. I understand what Venture means when he says that if there's no theme then it's not literature, but I don't agree that something has to have literary value to be entertaining. I mean, junk food has no nutritional value, but it doesn't stop me from eating it.
That's not to say I didn't have any themes in mind when I wrote my story. The problem is that my arc is based on an original story I wrote a while ago, and adapted to the MA. Naturally, a lot of stuff had to be cut, either for time, or just to avoid the common rookie mistake of assuming the players want to know my characters' life stories. (PROTIP: They don't.) I might have been able to expand on certain themes a lot more by making it a multi-volume arc, but I doubt I could have made each volume a self-contained story, and I definitely agree with Venture that that's bad form.
I think I'm most eager for my eventual review just because I'm curious to see if I get the dreaded JABOSTH or not. Remember writers, just because you know what your theme is doesn't mean it came out in the finished product!
Arc ID 181244 - Waves of Chaos
Arc ID 260113 - One Tough Cookie
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I'm sure Shakespeare could have used that advice.
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Shakespeare never had to work in an audience-interactive medium which is what MA is.
You have to make it fun to play, because the majority of the time spent with the arc is going to be spent running the missions in the arc. You could write the most meaningful arc in the world and it doesn't mean squat if the all of the LTs are as durable as bosses, it just becomes dullness and slog.
After that you have to make the plot be coherent, and optimally, not treat the reader like an idiot.
Venture, considering the arcs you've reviewed and sampled. How many of those even get that right? Take that a step further, how many of the Dev-created content gets that right?
The only constructive thing I could suggest is if you could suggest tips on giving the arc a theme. Take an arc that's JABOSTH and try suggest ways to fix it so it isn't JABOSTH.
"Steady as a mountain, attack like fire, still as a wood, swift as the wind.
In heaven and earth I alone am to be revered."
- Motto on the war banner of Takeda Shingen (1521-1573)
[I apologize for the the length of this post, but I feel it is on-topic and possibly informative.]
[u]A Complete Guide to "Just a bunch of stuff that happened"![u]
tl;dr version
Have a theme and/or a moral to your story; or else make your story funny enough that the reviewer overlooks the lack of theme.
Long version
It seems the great majority of story arcs reviewed by Venture are tagged "Just a bunch of stuff that happened". From context, it seems that this term is a criticism of the story arc's plot. As a reviewer myself, I don't use this particular phrase, but I do often criticize arcs for stuff like "This needs foreshadowing" or "This mission has nothing to do with your plot". But closer inspection reveals that this is not what Venture means when he says "Just a bunch of stuff that happened".
This has made me curious as to what this phrase actually means; this catch phrase clearly has deeper meaning than is immediately obvious.
I've been fortunate enough to get two non-JABOSTH reviews from Venture (warning: shameless promotion ahead):
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(Venture)
Arc# 1388, Celebrity Kidnapping
tl;dr: 4 stars. Offenses: aggravating mobs
Reviewed on: 5/9/2009
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Arc #67335, "Teen Phalanx Forever!"
tl;dr: 5 stars. Nits: overpowered allies, dissonance in narrative
Reviewed on: 5/26/2009
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A lot of authors ask "Why did my arc get labeled Just a Bunch of Stuff that Happened?" Now I'll ask myself, "Why did my arcs NOT get labeled Just a Bunch of Stuff that Happened?"
For example, Teen Phalanx Forever has the protagonist (and her team) variously overcoming the plots of Dr. Vahzilok, Clockwork King and a mysterious AV, none of which really obviously have much to do with each other, and so I'm totally open to being charged with having a Random Events Plot, which TVTropes connects to "Just a Bunch of Stuff that Happened". But I had an overarching framing story of the newbie teen hero who joins a new team, makes friends, learns the value of teamwork, and finally gains acceptance even from the Mean Girl. I'd like to think that this overall plot shone through and was what saved me from JABOSTH.
For Celebrity Kidnapping, the plot is basically that of a heist movie, where a band of criminals gets together and pulls off a daring crime. But once they succeed, they start backstabbing each other to try and increase their share of the profits, only to have a gajillion cops and other enemies try to jump them in the final act, and eventually only the protagonist walks away with the money. There's really no moral to the story (the protagonist is a villain, after all!) except possibly that you shouldn't trust sleazy fixer types (which ought to be blindingly obvious). So I'm not sure why I didn't get slapped with JABOSTH here, since I essentially have an "action movie" plot. Perhaps betrayal was flagged as my theme, or maybe the Rule of Funny gave me some slack; I'm not quite sure.
More research was required to truly understand the meaning of "Just a bunch of stuff that happened". I did some internet archaeology and came up with:
Significant historical quotes on the subject of "Just a bunch of stuff that happened"
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Venture (4/13/2009)
Extensive use of custom mobs says, to me, that the author is covering up for a weak or nonexistent theme with eye candy, that the mission is "just a bunch of stuff that happened". I'd much rather see a good story told within the canon than a mediocre action movie told with custom mobs.
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Venture (4/16/2009)
I've got a question; you keep using the phrase "Just a bunch of stuff that happens" to describe some of the plots, and although I can kind of pick up what you mean from the context, I'm curious what your actual definition is for it.
A story is "just a bunch of stuff that happened" if it doesn't have any kind of moral, theme or character development to it at all. Humor is an acceptable substitute, as long as it is actually funny. Of course that's subjective. "Hearts on Fire", despite its multitude of sins, does not have this problem, as it has a strong story about unrequited love. "Redoubt Operations I: Fires over Kalago" (just a random example) is an arc that the author very obviously put a lot of work into but has no story beyond "bad guys do bad things until you make them stop".
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I swiped the phrase (I think) from "Episode 257-494" of Teen Titans, in which "Control Freak" traps the Titans inside television shows until Beast Boy's superior knowledge of television defeats him. At the end someone says "see what happens when you watch too much TV?" and Starfire points out that they only won because Beast Boy watches too much TV. Raven asks "so, what's the moral here?" and Cyborg says "There isn't one. It was just a bunch of stuff that happened." Cue Everyone Laughs Ending, which quotes the episode differently so maybe I've misremembered the line. I'm sticking with my version though. :-P
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Venture (4/17/2009)
Hmm... it might help if you were more clear on what you didn't consider 'just a bunch of stuff that happened', Venture; after all, just about anything could have that accusation levelled at it.
Asked and answered upthread a bit. To reiterate, an arc is "just a bunch of stuff that happened" if there is no theme or moral to it. Humorous arcs get a bye here as long as they're actually funny. While I cite this offense fairly often there are a lot of arcs I didn't cite for it so you shouldn't have too much trouble finding good examples. Needless to say I don't think my arcs are guilty of it; feel free to call me on it if you disagree.
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This is getting back to the "just a bunch of stuff that happened" problem. If there is nothing to the story but the reveal that your Contact was a fraud then that's bad.
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Stratonexus (4/21/2009)
I know I have seen Venture 4 star some arcs where he also states that the arc is "just a bunch of stuff that happened". So while it is an offense, it is not a terrible one.
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Megajoule (4/22/2009)
Just wanted to note that one of the reasons why so many missions (Architect and canon) have no "moral or theme" and are "just a bunch of stuff that happened" is that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to write such a story for literally thousands of characters. Done poorly, it can run into power-posing and/or snap a player right out of the story, even make them quit rather than continue.
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Consider a familiar question for heroic types: "What would make you break your code vs. killing?" The problems are obvious right off: some heroes don't have such a thing in the first place, and those who do have different thresholds, different answers to that question. If you present me with an arc where one of my more Silver-Agey heroes snaps and wastes a Smug Snake in front of TV cameras, because the clue or mission debriefing says so, that's it - I'm done. I probably won't rate it down because I'm not vindictive that way, but I will not be finishing or recommending that arc.
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So, how do you make a story that isn't JABOSTH without taking away a player's control of their character or making assumptions that will probably be wrong at least half of the time?
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Gotterdammerung (4/22/2009)
You make a good point about forcing your character to behave in a certain way, and that seems to be something that Venture dislikes as well; in many reviews, he's criticized the writer for making assumptions about a player characters motives/morals/background etc.
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However, that doesn't preclude having a theme. To go back to your example, if an arc gave you the option to defeat a boss (implicitly killing him) or to let him run away and fail the mission, that could allow the arc to explore a theme without necessarily assuming anything about the player. So, as you say, trying to use the theme "what would make your character break their code vs. killing" would be very difficult (though perhaps not impossible) to do in the confines of the Architect. On the other hand, it wouldn't be very hard at all to write an arc that explored a similar theme, like "is it ever justified to kill a villain" by, say, using an NPC as the character having the moral crisis.
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You're right in saying that avoiding JABOSTH is a very tricky thing to do, especially in a system where no assumptions can be made about the protagonist. However, I think Venture's right in placing such a big emphasis on this, because I believe it's critical to writing a good arc. The easiest way to do this is to look at your story and ask youself: "what question is this story asking?" If you're asking a question, you've got yourself a theme. If you answer the question, you've got yourself a moral. If you're really not asking anything, then you've got JABOSTH.
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None of which is to say that you always have to have a theme or moral. A comedic arc or an "action movie" arc can usually get by without them. However, you can't write something like that and then expect it to be taken seriously. On the other hand, if you're really trying for drama, then a theme is an integral part of that.
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Ultimately, it all comes down to maintaining a realistic and focused grasp on what exactly you're trying to accomplish with your arc. Honestly, if everyone just did that, there are a lot of arcs that would be vastly improved. If an arc feels loosely connected, disjointed, or chaotic, a lot of times it's because the writer didn't have any goal beyond "I want to write a good arc." When you click that New Arc button, you should imagine someone asking you: "What is this arc's reason for being, and what makes it so special?" If you don't have an answer for that, then you need to think about it some more.
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EDITOR NOTE: Gotterdammerung's opinion was later cited by Venture on 6/3/2009 so may be taken as canon in the Venture-verse.
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Arcanaville (4/22/2009)
My interpretation:
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Just a bunch of stuff that happens:
Mission one: please help me get my cat out of a tree.
Mission two: what, my cat has DE crystals on it? find out why the DE want my cat.
Mission three: The DE are being ordered to experiment on cats by the Rikti? Find the Rikti leader and defeat him.
Problem: sure, there's a thread to it, as in "hanging by."
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A bunch of stuff that happens for a reason, but reason uses the idiot ball:
Mission one: My research lab appears to have been broken into, but strangely the only thing stolen was not any of my research subjects, but my pet cat. This is strange, I need you to investigate.
Mission two: The trail led to a cave with the DE? That's odd. Let me see that device you recovered. This appears to be Rikti in design. My research involved the immune system of the Rikti, but how does my cat fit in? Find the Rikti responsible and learn what they are up to.
Mission three: The Rikti leader believed my research was a biological weapons lab? He apparently was going to try to plant a monitoring device on my cat.
Problem: The Rikti hired the DE to steal a cat?
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A bunch of stuff that happens for a reason, tries to avoid stupidville:
Mission one: I was conducting research on the DE, while I was gone one of them apparently broke out of its cage and for some reason stole my cat. Investigate the DE, and if you can recover my cat.
Mission two: You traced the DE to a cave with Rikti? So it seems the DE didn't break out on its own: the Rikti stole it and my cat. But why? Seek out the leader of this Rikti group and find out what they are after.
Mission three: The Rikti thought my research could be used to make a biological weapon against the Rikti? And they were going to plant a monitoring device on my cat to observe me? That's really strange.
Problem: its still a stupid plot, but at least it makes some sort of logic, and doesn't involve completely ludicrous acts of insanity.
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LaserJesus (4/24/2009)
What it means is that the story isn't much more than foiling a villain's plans, or the opposite for villains. I also wouldn't call it a sin, it's just that if you're judging a plot, one with character development and meaning is stronger than one without it.
Maybe Venture should explain it in his signature or something, this question gets asked so much.
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Arcanaville (4/24/2009)
I should point out that whether something is sufficiently well connected and has a sufficiently strong point is at least partially subjective, so its impossible to guarantee avoiding this problem in the mind of any one particular reviewer.
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However, one thing I *can* recommend to avoid the charge of "just a bunch of things that happen" is to not actually *make* just a bunch of things that happen.
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One thing I'm noticing in the arcs I play is that in some cases, it seems pretty obvious that the author essentially wrote a bunch of different missions, with whatever maps they thought would be cool, whatever bosses they thought would be cool, and whatever objectives they thought would be cool. Then they attempted to sprinkle "plot-dust" on them, to try to connect them.
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For example: mission one is in Orenbega fighting demons. Mission two is in ruined Atlas Park, fighting 5th Column. Why? Because in mission one the boss says he was sent to invade our dimension from an alternate reality in which I guess the 5th Column are planetary arsonists.
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The contact gives no clue the story is heading in this direction, and for that matter the contact doesn't give much of *any* reason for going to Orenbega in the first place. The contact is just a device to send you to mission one, and the boss in mission one (specifically, his dialog) is just a device to get you to mission two.
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It was (it seems to me) to be *implemented* as just a bunch of stuff that happens, that someone then tried to solder together. If nothing else, try to avoid doing that because it has a tendancy of being often obvious.
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Two questions I think the author should ask themselves while reviewing their mission arcs:
1. When the contact says "Accept my mission" pretend to be the player and say "and if I don't?" If you don't have a good reply, something's wrong.
2. When the contact says "Accept my mission" pretend to be the player and say "what's the point?" If you don't have a good answer, same thing.
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Lastly, it helps if everyone in the mission arc is actually participating in the same story. If the mission arc is about recruiting the player to stop the latest bunch of Nemesis plots, and one of them has a Nemesis LT poisoning the special burrito sauce at El Mexicano, and then the next one sends you to stop the bombing of Atlas Park, well it might make sense to you, but its likely to be perceived as a random bunch of things strung together, even if there exists a plot device to connect the events together.
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A *really* skilled author can make something that initially *appears* to be a random bunch of stuff that later *is* connected in ways that make perfect sense in retrospect. But this is by no means easy, or likely to strike all readers equally validly. If you fail, you'll probably fail directly into the deepest hole of JABOSTH.
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Smurch (5/12/2009)
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Just wanted to note that one of the reasons why so many missions (Architect and canon) have no "moral or theme" and are "just a bunch of stuff that happened" is that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to write such a story for literally thousands of characters.
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The best thing to do, IMHO, is not to try. Via the description, give the basic premise/setup the player needs to meet you half way on and then just go on from there. By clicking play they are implicitly already on board with the basic premise. From there, build on that premise to present a theme.
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Venture (5/30/2009)
"Just a bunch of stuff that happened" means the story has no theme or moral to it. It's nothing but a meaningless string of events. It's just about some guys doing some stuff you don't like so you clobber them to make them stop. The plot doesn't say anything or teach anything, making it suitable for use by any of the most vapid Saturday-morning cartoons.
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Venture (6/3/2009)
Comparing this arc to something like Escalation (which has been getting great reviews all around, but which also seems to use the Stop The Bad Guy From Doing Bad Stuff plot) - what do you see as the critical difference? Is it the personal relationship between Escalation and the player?
"Escalation" has a primary theme about obsession and revenge. It has a secondary theme about bravery and the willingness to face a hopeless fight. The player goes out to fight Escalation over and over knowing, or at least as of Act V believing, he has no way to stop her for good, that she's only going to come back stronger if he wins.
...
JABOSTH is the trope I have the most trouble understanding in practice as it applies within the MA. It seems like many, many of the canon arcs suffer from this problem, and while I have something of a spidey sense about it, I don't know that I can quantify what it really means.
While I haven't sat down and tabulated them all, I'd say the majority, maybe even the vast majority, of the canon stories are "just a bunch of stuff that happened".
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Summary
I tried to consolidate all known information on "Just a Bunch of Stuff that Happened". I hope this is helpful for people to either understand why their arc got tagged JABOSTH, or else to try and modify their arc to avoid it. I feel like I learned something, anyway I don't plan to start using the JABOSTH tag myself, but I can see why Venture regards it as important.
It seems to me the best way to avoid JABOSTH is to ask yourself, "What is my story arc about?" If your answer is, "You find out about some bad guys and you fight them!" and nothing more, then it might be JABOSTH.
@PW - Police Woman (50 AR/dev blaster on Liberty)
TALOS - PW war journal - alternate contact tree using MA story arcs
=VICE= "Give me Liberty, or give me debt!"
It's a pity Venture's not accepting any more review requests for the time being. I'm having a really strong urge to write an arc where the player has to foil the evil villain Jabosth (whose plans always seem random and pointless). Kinda sounds like a CoT villain... or perhaps the Rikti Ja'Bosth? Either way, I'd have to do everything in my power to make sure the arc had a real strong theme to it, just for extra mind-explodey points.
Arc ID 181244 - Waves of Chaos
Arc ID 260113 - One Tough Cookie
My concept of what a theme is as follows (pulled from a Literary site):
THEME
The main idea or underlying meaning of a literary work. A theme may be stated or implied. Theme differs from the subject or topic of a literary work in that it involves a statement or opinion about the topic. Not every literary work has a theme. Themes may be major or minor. A major theme is an idea the author returns to time and again. It becomes one of the most important ideas in the story. Minor themes are ideas that may appear from time to time.
It is important to recognize the difference between the theme of a literary work and the subject of a literary work. The subject is the topic on which an author has chosen to write. The theme, however, makes some statement about or expresses some opinion on that topic. For example, the subject of a story might be war while the theme might be the idea that war is useless.
Four ways in which an author can express themes are as follows:
1. Themes are expressed and emphasized by the way the author makes us feel. By sharing feelings of the main character you also share the ideas that go through his mind.
2. Themes are presented in thoughts and conversations. Authors put words in their characters mouths only for good reasons. One of these is to develop a storys themes. The things a person says are much on their mind. Look for thoughts that are repeated throughout the story.
3. Themes are suggested through the characters. The main character usually illustrates the most important theme of the story. A good way to get at this theme is to ask yourself the question, what does the main character learn in the course of the story?
4. The actions or events in the story are used to suggest theme. People naturally express ideas and feelings through their actions. One thing authors think about is what an action will "say". In other words, how will the action express an idea or theme?
I have a suggestion that might (or might not be) be helpful.
When someone submits their arc for review to Venture, put in what they think their themes are. That way Venture could have it in the back of his mind when he does the review. If he sees the theme he could mention you were successful. If he doesn't see it then he can (if he feels like going the extra step) offer a suggestion on how to get that theme across.
Respectfully,
I humbly submit that my arc, Kiss Hello Goodbye, has themes common to the works of which it is a pastiche: the struggle between cynicism and idealsim, and betrayal necessitating redemption.
Your character is suspicious of the Dame rom the beginning, but her mind control prevents you from acting upon your suspicions casually, enabling you to have some hope that she is legit. Eventually you discover her betrayal, and she frames you for a crime, forcing you to redeem yourself in the eyes of those you have come to trust and those who have come to trust you.
Also, the arc hints that the Dame may have developed feelings for your character that caused her to alter her plans. Is this a mere smokescreen (cynicism) or a hint that she may be redeemable (idealism)?
But ultimately, theme is in the eye of the beholder, isn't it? Kill Bill may be all about motherly love in the eyes of Quentin Tarantino, but does that mean anything to anyone who saw it as a pure action movie?
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
When someone submits their arc for review to Venture, put in what they think their themes are.
I would rather people did not do this, because your theme is supposed to come across on its own, not only when you've tipped your hand in advance.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
My arc "The All-Seeing Eye" 57352 was flagged as" JABOSH". Maybe this is true, if so I don't see it as a major flaw. I wasn't aiming to write [u]War and Peace[u], but rather a romp that would allow the player to have fun for an hour or two.
The one major story flaw pointed out by Venture is that in the final mission the player is sent to deal with a crisis in the final mission instead of it being obliterated by an airstrike (or dealt with by the Freedom Phalanx, etc). I knew this was an obvious "why don't the good guys do this instead" scenario, but then every single mission and story arc in this game is. What place is there for the up and coming hero or villain if Statesman and his uber buddies or Recluse and his goons do everything?
What I was aiming for is that the player gets to save the day and be the star, not the contact, and not Statesman. The final map was chosen to feel like a warzone, to be epic and cinematic. It was an artistic choice, not a logical one.
I'm happy with my review. It's not literature. JABOSH isn't always bad. It almost feels like praise in this case.
Together we entered a city of strangers, we made it a city of friends, and we leave it a City of Heroes. - Sweet_Sarah
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While I agree that JABOSH isn't necessarily bad if the arc is coherent and fun to play through, I have to ask: If you are not trying to create "literature," then why submit your arc to a reviewer that will treat it as if it is supposed to be "literature," and rate it by those criteria?
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Because when you get rated 4 stars, and JABOSTH was the only big complaint, that says to me that Venture thinks it's a well written arc, just doesn't have a theme.
That's pretty good press, if you ask me.
Ok it's up to you on how you review. I just though it might be helpful.
But look at it this way... it's like a "Where's Waldo" book. Waldo is in there but sometimes he's hard to see. It doesn't negate the fact that he is there. Some people see him easier than others. (Assuming there is a Waldo in the picture)
A theme is like that in a sense. I think we all remember school and being asked to find the theme of a book. You could get 10 different answers in a class. Sometimes there actually were more than one theme. Sometimes only on the second read did some people catch the theme. But the theme was always there.
You run a mission once and you might miss something. Or you could be tired when reviewing it and not as observant as normal. People are human and make mistakes. (under the assumption that there actually was a theme).
In my opinion, someone saying to you what they think the theme is before you play an arc is not necessarily bad. If you do see it there after all, then it always was there. If you still don't see it then the author might not have made it clear enough.
Anyways those are my thoughts on it.
Respectfully,
If it's hard to see then you need to work on it some more. This isn't English Lit class. It's a video game. You're not writing War and Peace, you're writing an arc that people will devote maybe an hour to, and you have a very limited amount of space in which to get your point across.
The medium itself caters to a limited attention span. It almost demands it. Nobody's going to spend a week analyzing your story, trying to find a theme. It pretty much has to jump out at the player. I'm not suggesting that you assume the player is stupid, or that you have to spell everything out for them in big red letters, but the point you're trying to get across should be fairly obvious by the time someone has finished the arc.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Dear Russian Babes,
You already tanked Venture's last thread by filling it with a thousand posts. Will you please show us the courtesy of not filling this thread with a thousand or more posts as well?
May I suggest that you go start your own thread so that those of us who'd like to read Venture's reviews can do so without having to skip past a thousand of your posts as well?
Thank you.
Sincerely,
[The Ace of Spades]
Please do not tell people what or where to post, unless you are a moderator. Before anyone goes there, I did not tell people not to post replies to my reviews to this thread; I just said I wouldn't read or reply to them.
RB did not tank my last thread. She had lots and lots of help.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Personally I take this as the meaning of "Just a Bunch of Stuff that Happens".
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Exactly the (the example of a ) wrong meaning. Shaggy Dog Story is a plot thing. JABOTSH is a deeper meaning thing.
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes